399 replies to this topic

[Datepalm]

David Selig, on 13 April 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

http://yuki-onna.liv...page=6#comments

Passive aggressive much? I've got elderly Jewish East European great aunts who never see their grandkids who would be embarrased to pull that "It's not like anyone will even listen to me..." and "As we all know social psychology..."


ETA - Yeah, and he is paternalistic, despite claiming not to be. Or maybe just condescending. And he is doing in these posts exactly what he does to women in his books - " be quiet, girl, and let me tell you what your problems really are." He writes women degradingly so he can show us how bad the degredation of women is, and he tells a woman on the internet to shut up, so that he can show us all how we should be talking.

Also, seriously, is this like a pathological thing with him? I can't think of many authors who are immature enough to bounce around the internet showing up in random comments sections where he's been mentioned to whine about how misunderstood he is. A little dignity, sheesh. And - for a person who makes a living writing prose, for fucks sake - he absolutely sucks at things like tone and nuance and not coming across like an annoying, condescending and priggish proffessor onto who's lawn we've all wandered, possibly dragging a dead pig thats on fire with us, even when he's not saying something risible.

Edited by Datepalm, 13 April 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[Larry.]

With his "And as far as proof goes, I invite you to check out my blog. I GUARANTEE you, I've spent more time battling GENUINE misogyny on the web than you, 'mate.'" line, I believe Bakker has now crossed into Goodkind territory.  Impressive in all the wrong ways.

[Prince Alexander]

Wow.

[Sci-2]

Larry., on 13 April 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

With his "And as far as proof goes, I invite you to check out my blog. I GUARANTEE you, I've spent more time battling GENUINE misogyny on the web than you, 'mate.'" line, I believe Bakker has now crossed into Goodkind territory.  Impressive in all the wrong ways.

I jumped off the carriage and watched in horror as the horses ran off the cliff's edge to their doom...

Then I laughed, not knowing what else to do.

[kalbear]

That would be the line that made me facepalm, yes.

What made me want to quit was him posting on an article where the subject was how women could not be acerbic and how that is a problem AND the author specifically stated that she does not want to discuss the merits of those women used as example, only the reaction to them - and he proceeds to talk about how one of the women is wrong AND how she should shut up.

[Sci-2]

Quote

Also, seriously, is this like a pathological thing with him?

Yes.

Admittedly, I think he genuinely wants discussion and believes these kinds of dialogue are important but it always ends up with him offending people.

[kalbear]

That would also make the best jacket blurb EVER.

[Datepalm]

Kalbear, on 13 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

That would also make the best jacket blurb EVER.

I see it as one of those dramatic movie voiceovers - "They all battled misogyny...But only Bakker battled REAL MISOGYNY. On his blog."

[Lyanna Stark]

Datepalm, on 13 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

I see it as one of those dramatic movie voiceovers - "They all battled misogyny...But only Bakker battled REAL MISOGYNY. On his blog."

Datepalm, on 13 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

I think my issue with Bakker (ok, i've only read TDTCB. But y'all talk about it so much...) isn't so much his overarching thesis (or even the way he's trying to go about proving it, in theory) but that it's kind of a ridiculously dated take on feminism. Well done, you've deconstructed the attitude of the Bible to women. The bible is three thousand years old, y;know? By his twentieth novel, maybe he'll have something to say about the suffragettes!

Good point, I think this is really a much cleverer and better way of putting "like being hit with a blunt object" since it makes you wonder what the point is.


This is also why more nuanced portraits of women work so much better. Female characters like Felisin, Idaan Machi, Sansa or Asha are more interesting since they're layered and not necessarily inserted into the plot to prove a point.

Regarding the comments above on Felisin in particular, I think she's refreshing because she is truly a female anti-hero. She's about as straight an anti-hero as you can get, but is also very definitely female with what that entails (and I remember the flak she got for being what she is). Haven't finished "Toll the Hounds" or any of the latter Erikson books so can't say about Hetan.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 13 April 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Larry.]

Datepalm, on 13 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

I see it as one of those dramatic movie voiceovers - "They all battled misogyny...But only Bakker battled REAL MISOGYNY. On his blog."

You mean there's another way of battling it besides on a blog?

[Datepalm]

sciborg2, on 13 April 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

So we never acknowledge the value of traditionally feminine roles, and instead present strength as bravado/machismo. Now I do think that there is more to Erikson than that, and I've only read up to Toll the Hounds, but I think the criticism is there. I think he also uses too many femme fatale or "psycho bitch" characters.

This made me think of something my sister said - she was making a short movie that had exactly two characters, both of them women, completely isolated*, and was discussing the character design with a male classmate who apparenly kept saying - yeah, one of them should be like this sexy femme fatale, and the other like lesbian man hater! To which Sis points out - um, thats two character tropes that are totally about relating to men. This is an entire story with no men, at all, it doesn't serve any purpose to design them in a way that relates to men, this is all about their relashionship, they need to be threatening/creepy/weird to each other, etc, etc, to which he apparently replied - but I'm a man.

Anyway, my point is like...is there an expectation that male readers are so...well, dumb, that they can only react to fictional women in this totally limited collection of ways? A woman must be somehow reacting to the existence of men, or she's just incomprehensible?


*It was about a serial killer in the desert picking up a hitchhiker who also turns out to be a serial killer, and then they kill each other. Or something. My artsy sister, always a reliable source of delicately blushing feminine sensibility.

[Lyanna Stark]

DatePalm,

That actually sounds really awesome. Two female serial killers and we get to see who offs the other first. Brilliant, imho.

[Sci-2]

Quote

Regarding the comments above on Felisin in particular, I think she's refreshing because she is truly a female anti-hero. She's about as straight an anti-hero as you can get, but is also very definitely female with what that entails (and I remember the flak she got for being what she is).

I'd love to hear more about your take on this, because I read Felisin as one of the "spoiled bitch" stereotypes.

Quote

Anyway, my point is like...is there an expectation that male readers are so...well, dumb, that they can only react to fictional women in this totally limited collection of ways? A woman must be somehow reacting to the existence of men, or she's just incomprehensible?

I think it is changing but people are so used to this catering it's hard to let go of it.

Quote

*It was about a serial killer in the desert picking up a hitchhiker who also turns out to be a serial killer, and then they kill each other. Or something. My artsy sister, always a reliable source of delicately blushing feminine sensibility.

This on youtube? Or a file we could get?  I'm actually really curious about this as well.

[Lyanna Stark]

sciborg2, on 13 April 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

I'd love to hear more about your take on this, because I read Felisin as one of the "spoiled bitch" stereotypes.

I haven't read Deadhouse Gates, MoI and House of Chains in years, but as far as I remember:

Felisin starts out as rich and sheltered, but we are told that she is, and never see her as such. When we get her POV, she's had to prostitute herself to stay alive and ally herself to a local powerful man. She's also a drug addict and extremely self destructive. She lashes out against everyone who tries to reach out to her and is basically an emotional wreck.

She tries to do some good when she gets the power of an Ascendant, but in the end, it really isn't worth anything and she dies by her sister's hand.

The fact that she's so damaged and so emotionally stunted...women aren't normally allowed to be without being described as cardboard cut out evil villains, but even when Felisin is at rock bottom, we are made to feel sympathy for her. In the end she also gets the anti-hero tragic death, which is normally reserved for men only.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 13 April 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[kalbear]

I don't think it's that male readers are thought of as stupid; I think it's that if you don't cater to them as they expect they will just find somewhere that will

[Reek]

With regards to Bakker pissing female readers off with his depiction of women in his novels: I always got the impression that he was trying to shine a light on the subject feminism/female empowerment primarily for his male audience.

It seems to me, most men who read the fantasy genre have certain ideas about the way women should be treated both as characters in novels but also in everyday real life.  I feel like Bakker is trying to deconstruct those tropes and attitudes in an effort to force his male readers to examine their world view and their reasons for taking the positions they do.

Whether or not he is successful at getting readers to examine issues of gender equality and feminism obviously is up for debate.  But I feel like he does deserve some credit for making an effort at asking tough questions.

It's a shame that he has alienated a lot of women readers not just with his depiction of women in his novels but also with his fool-hardy crusade to frame the gender equality/feminism debate in his own terms without regards for the concerns of the people he is claiming to want to empower.

But really, my main point was that Bakker wants to speak primarily to men so it is not really a surprise to me that women are not swayed/impressed by his efforts.

[Datepalm]

Quote

This on youtube? Or a file we could get? I'm actually really curious about this as well.

My sister: "I should be working on it right now, actually, but I'm talking to you instead. And drawing Temeraire fanart."

The concept - http://graphiteandpi...2/04/movie.html

[Sci-2]

Datepalm, on 13 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

My sister: "I should be working on it right now, actually, but I'm talking to you instead. And drawing Temeraire fanart."

The concept - http://graphiteandpi...2/04/movie.html

Whoah it's animated? What language will it be in (crosses fingers for English subtitles)?

[Datepalm]

Reek, on 13 April 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

I always got the impression that he was trying to shine a light on the subject feminism/female empowerment primarily for his male audience. It seems to me, most men who read the fantasy genre have certain ideas about the way women should be treated both as characters in novels but also in everyday real life. I feel like Bakker is trying to deconstruct those tropes and attitudes in an effort to force his male readers to examine their world view and their reasons for taking the positions they do.

Kalbear, on 13 April 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

I don't think it's that male readers are thought of as stupid; I think it's that if you don't cater to them as they expect they will just find somewhere that will

Isn't this kind of the issue thats been running in GenChat for a while, about the role of men in a would-be feminist world? Are men, in their great, nebulous, uniform mass going to run off scared when shockingly confronted with a female character thats not a whore or a virgin? Do they really need to have their heads pounded with didactic bricks? I mean, what kind of enjoyment is this supposed platonic-ur-male-bakker-reader actually deriving from those books, since if they fail, they're misogynist crap, but if they succeed, they're supposed to make men understand...what?

[Shryke]

Datepalm, on 13 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

What did he do on Valente's Blog? It's like a trainwreck, I can't look away!

I think my issue with Bakker (ok, i've only read TDTCB. But y'all talk about it so much...) isn't so much his overarching thesis (or even the way he's trying to go about proving it, in theory) but that it's kind of a ridiculously dated take on feminism. Well done, you've deconstructed the attitude of the Bible to women. The bible is three thousand years old, y;know? By his twentieth novel, maybe he'll have something to say about the suffragettes!

In going there, he's using sexualization, objectification, rape culture, gender essentialism and female marginalization to get his messages about female equality across. So he's doing fine service to medieval Islamic or Catholic or whatever thought, (women - not inherently inferior by the will of God or Orginal Sin or whateverthefuck. Gosh, profound.) but he's totally flunking the actual issues 21st century feminism is about.

Yeah, cause nobody pays attention to the Bible on gender issues anymore.