41 replies to this topic

[Ser Lepus]

I have been looking for the size of the navies. We know that:

The Redwynes have "two hundred warships, and five times as many merchant carracks, wine cogs, trading galleys, and whalers",

The Iron Fleet of the Iron Islands had about a hundred war galleys, plus 400-900 longships (depending on who you ask).

Sallador Saan has at least 23 galleys.

Aurane Waters has twelve surviving ships or the old royal fleet, plus ten new dromons.

Xaro has 83 merchant ships, and all the Thirteen of Qarth combined have 1000.

The Ancient Guild of Spicers of Qarth has 1200-1300 merchant ships.

The Tourmaline Brotherhood of Qarth has 800 merchant ships.

I can´t remember the size of Stannis´ fleet when he attacked King´s Landing.

Do you people remember the size of any other fleet? I´m trying to figure how big can be the  fleets of Tyrosh, Lys, Myr...etc.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 06 April 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[mor2]

200 hundred ships in Stannis fleet Battle_of_the_Blackwater.Also there is some info here Ships and references(books and SSMs)

Edited by mor2, 06 April 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Ser Lepus]

mor2, on 06 April 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

200 hundred ships in Stannis fleet Battle_of_the_Blackwater.Also there is some info here Ships and references(books and SSMs)

Thank you.
Would "200 ships with landing party" mean "200 ships plus troop transports", or "200 ships including troop transports"?
Two hundred ships seems too few for Stannis, taking into account that he had both the whole royal fleet and a bunch of civilian merchant vessels he had taken to use as troop transports...I guess the wiki only counts the warships, and not the troop transports.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 06 April 2012 - 07:44 PM.

[Fatmo]

Isn't there a newly built fleet in White Harbor, or at least one in the process of being built?  I seem to remember there was a number of War Galleys that had been built, something like 50, but I could be wrong about that.

I'm guessing that Bravos has a bad-ass fleet, but as far as I can recall we have not seen it or heard about it's exploits.

I'm pretty sure Volantis has a large fleet too.  Didn't Victarion and his expeditionary force encounter them on their way to Slaver's Bay?  I think the slavers also have fleets of their own, besides all the foreign help they are receiving from just about everywhere.

The Night's Watch has some kind of fleet presence at and around Eastwatch.

I'd love to know how many ships the Corsair King has at his disposal.  I love mysterious entities like him, where they could just as easily come into play or remain a rumor.

[mor2]

@Ser Lepus, The two hundred ships are the naval attack force, the "landing party" are troops on board those ships that would be used in land combat, to secure the initial beach heads.

But you are right it seems that two hundred is two, quote from the book:

Quote

With four times as many ships as the boy king... He had organized the fleet into ten lines of battle, each of twenty ships. The first two lines would sweep up the river to engage and destroy Joffrey’s little fleet.. Those that followed would land companies of archers and spearmen beneath the city walls, and only then join the fight on the river. The smaller, slower ships to the rear would ferry over the main part of Stannis’s host from the south bank, protected by Salladhor Saan and his Lyseni, who would stand out in the bay in case the Lannisters had other ships hidden up along the coast, poised to sweep down on their rear.

I dont thin that the smaller slower ships are counted as part of the battle lines, nor is the Lyseni ships at the bay.

[Corvinus]

I believe Victarion was estimating the Volantis fleet at 300-500 ships, but that's not just war ships.
Also, I've been thinking... Braavos is considered the greatest naval power in the narrow sea, so if Volantis can raise that many ships, what can Braavos do?

[Ser Hippie]

Fatmo, on 07 April 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Isn't there a newly built fleet in White Harbor, or at least one in the process of being built?  I seem to remember there was a number of War Galleys that had been built, something like 50, but I could be wrong about that.

I don't remember if Davos gets an exact count on the number of ships in White Harbor but Manderly is also hiding an equal number in the White Knife.

[Free Northman]

Ser Hippie, on 08 April 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

I don't remember if Davos gets an exact count on the number of ships in White Harbor but Manderly is also hiding an equal number in the White Knife.

Davos counts 23 ships at White Harbor, and Manderley tells him he has as many hidden up the White Knife, bringing the Northern Fleet to roughly 50 ships. But Manderly has only been building ships for 1 year, and is still building, so that number is likely to grow.

And if a new King in the North makes a Narrow Sea Fleet his priority, then I see no reason why the North couldn't have a permanent warfleet of 50-100 ships.

Apparently, the Umbers or Karstarks also have a few longships, though the numbers are not specified.

[Dornish Bannerman]

There were two hundred ships in Stannis's navy during the battle of Blackwater. These had crews and they had a smaller amount of men. After beaten the Lannister Fleet, they were to disembark and then carry the twenty thousand of Stannis over the Blackwater.

[mor2]

Free Northman, on 12 April 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Davos counts 23 ships at White Harbor, and Manderley tells him he has as many hidden up the White Knife, bringing the Northern Fleet to roughly 50 ships. But Manderly has only been building ships for 1 year, and is still building, so that number is likely to grow.

And if a new King in the North makes a Narrow Sea Fleet his priority, then I see no reason why the North couldn't have a permanent warfleet of 50-100 ships.

Apparently, the Umbers or Karstarks also have a few longships, though the numbers are not specified.

I cant see such a big fleet, according to GRRM a major house like a Lannister will have no more than 20/30 ships. So Manderley, jump starting the north from no fleet to 50-100 ships seems like an exaggeration in every way. iirc even the Iron fleet was numbered in the sixtish and Stannis fleet was suplimented by pirates, confiscated ships and those of his Bannermens.

[Ran]

The Iron Fleet is over a hundred ships. The whole ironborn fleet numbers in the hundreds. I'm not sure I recall George giving a specific number to the Lannister fleet, but I do recall that he said that only the Redwyne fleet and royal fleet matched the ironborn fleet in strength -- so they're all over 100 ships, while the Lannisters aren't... but they could probably maintain 50 ships, I suppose, if they wanted. And double that number in a year if they threw enough gold at the problem.

Given that Manderly may be including longships -- it's not just the ironborn that use them -- in his count, I don't really think there's a problem that he's sunk vast resources in speedy ship-building. The Arsenal of Braavos can turn out a ship a day, after all. Once you know what you're doing, and if you have the manpower and resources, you really can knock them out pretty fast.

[Dornish Bannerman]

Isn't the Iron Fleet of two hundred longships? And isn't it a standing fleet? The ironborn would also have the ships of the bannerman too.

And wasn't the Royal Fleet destroyed at the Blackwater? And when Lord Waters ran away with the dromons, they should have merely about twenty ships.

The Arbor Fleet I think has two hundred war-galleys.

Also there is a navy at Seagard, under the Mallisters. Both war-galleys and longships.

[Ran]

From ADwD:

Quote

... of the hundred that had once made up the Iron Fleet,

They aren't longships, either. They're sort of hybrid longship-galleys -- maybe just clinker built galleys (of which a few examples were said to have existed in Northern Europe).

The Redwyne war fleet is about two hundred ships, I expect, and then they have hundreds of more ships available to impress.

Lord Mallister doesn't consider his six longships and two war galleys a fleet.

[Free Northman]

mor2, on 15 April 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

I cant see such a big fleet, according to GRRM a major house like a Lannister will have no more than 20/30 ships. So Manderley, jump starting the north from no fleet to 50-100 ships seems like an exaggeration in every way. iirc even the Iron fleet was numbered in the sixtish and Stannis fleet was suplimented by pirates, confiscated ships and those of his Bannermens.

Davos sees 23 warships. That's a fact.

Manderly tells him he has as many more hidden up the White Knife. I don't think Manderly is lying.

Wyman Manderly rules about 10 times as much land as all Iron Islands put together, and probably rules a population 5 times the size of the combined Iron Isles population.

His city is also bigger than the biggest of the Iron Island ports by an order of magnitude. He has access to the biggest source of lumber in Westeros, and has vaults full of silver. He also has a thriving port with established shipyards and an economy based around fishing and sea trade.

I think 50 ships are easily achievable for him.

[Frey Pie]

Free Northman, on 15 April 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Davos sees 23 warships. That's a fact.

Manderly tells him he has as many more hidden up the White Knife. I don't think Manderly is lying.

Wyman Manderly rules about 10 times as much land as all Iron Islands put together, and probably rules a population 5 times the size of the combined Iron Isles population.

His city is also bigger than the biggest of the Iron Island ports by an order of magnitude. He has access to the biggest source of lumber in Westeros, and has vaults full of silver. He also has a thriving port with established shipyards and an economy based around fishing and sea trade.

I think 50 ships are easily achievable for him.

I agree. In the event of a naval battle for Westeros it seems Redwyne is the true power. Only the iron fleet of the iron born are made for battle, the others are for reaving. Redwynes power does seem to be disproportionatley immense though.

The Braavosi only have wooden walls i.e. their ships. I would think theyre easily the greatest power at sea being a sort of conglomeration of Athens and Venice at their peaks

[mor2]

Ran, on 15 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

The Iron Fleet is over a hundred ships. The whole ironborn fleet numbers in the hundreds. I'm not sure I recall George giving a specific number to the Lannister fleet, but I do recall that he said that only the Redwyne fleet and royal fleet matched the ironborn fleet in strength -- so they're all over 100 ships, while the Lannisters aren't... but they could probably maintain 50 ships, I suppose, if they wanted. And double that number in a year if they threw enough gold at the problem.

I meant the "Iron Fleet", their main force, the larger ships they can take to sea and capable of sea battle not every Longships they have on the Iron islands, but you are right sixty is only how many they took to meereen.

IIRC GRRM said the lannister had something like 20-30 ships, but just like the rest, they can supplement their force in time of need by calling their bannermen. This how I remember it and put it on the Ships entry(reference to ssm bellow), anything I missed/incorrect about?

Free Northman, on 15 April 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Davos sees 23 warships. That's a fact.

Manderly tells him he has as many more hidden up the White Knife. I don't think Manderly is lying.

Wyman Manderly rules about 10 times as much land as all Iron Islands put together, and probably rules a population 5 times the size of the combined Iron Isles population.

His city is also bigger than the biggest of the Iron Island ports by an order of magnitude. He has access to the biggest source of lumber in Westeros, and has vaults full of silver. He also has a thriving port with established shipyards and an economy based around fishing and sea trade.

I think 50 ships are easily achievable for him.

He seen 23 warships, some of those might be just longboats and some of those might belong to Manderly bannermens(which would mean he intend to move). Because if the lannisters can maintain only 20-30 ships, there is no way that Manderly who barely can feed up his own people in the streets, can spawn and maintain 50 ships and crews(a bare minimum of 2000 sailors) and do so quietly.

Edited by mor2, 17 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Free Northman]

mor2, on 17 April 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I meant the "Iron Fleet", their main force, the larger ships they can take to sea and capable of sea battle not every Longships they have on the Iron islands, but you are right sixty is only how many they took to meereen.

IIRC GRRM said the lannister had something like 20-30 ships, but just like the rest, they can supplement their force in time of need by calling their bannermen. This how I remember it and put it on the Ships entry(reference to ssm bellow), anything I missed/incorrect about?

He seen 23 warships, some of those might be just longboats and some of those might belong to Manderly bannermens(which would mean he intend to move). Because if the lannisters can maintain only 20-30 ships, there is no way that Manderly who barely can feed up his own people in the streets, can spawn and maintain 50 ships and crews(a bare minimum of 2000 sailors) and do so quietly.

The Lannisters could have 200 warships if they wanted. They would just have to decide to spend the gold on it. Which they choose not to, as Tywin obviously deemed 30 ships sufficient for his peacetime purposes.

Manderly has focused actively on building up a fleet for the North, as instructed by the Starks back in Clash of Kings. He is doing so not just with his own money, but with taxes that were previously due to the King in the North.

If the North dedicated all their efforts to raising a fleet, they could have a fleet 200 strong. It would probably not be wise, as the diverted resources would probably cause serious shortages elsewhere, and the justification for such a large fleet does not exist.

The point is, the ancient Greek cities like Athens etc. had very large fleets, yet their city populations numbered no more than 30000-50000 people. Manderly has a population of similar size just in his city, plus a huge region of countryside around it - bigger than the entire Greece many times over.

50 ships are not difficult to achieve at all, as evidenced by Manderly's direct statement to Davos.

[Darth Rivers]

Quote

The point is, the ancient Greek cities like Athens etc. had very large fleets, yet their city populations numbered no more than 30000-50000 people.

Athens[+the surrounding area with all the towns and villages, of course] had a population of at least 250-300 thousand people, plus its subject poleis. You do know that a single galley requires like a hundred rowers? Warships had more, 200 or so. Which means 200 war galleys would require 40 thousand crew.

Edited by Darth Rivers, 01 May 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Free Northman]

Darth Rivers, on 01 May 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Athens[+the surrounding area with all the towns and villages, of course] had a population of at least 250-300 thousand people, plus its subject poleis. You do know that a single galley requires like a hundred rowers? Warships had more, 200 or so. Which means 200 war galleys would require 40 thousand crew.

The North has like 6 million people. So population size would not really be a limiting factor. A more reasonable argument against such a large fleet would be the lack of a justification for expending so much resources on maintaining such a fleet.

[Darth Rivers]

Free Northman, on 01 May 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

The North has like 6 million people. So population size would not really be a limiting factor. A more reasonable argument against such a large fleet would be the lack of a justification for expending so much resources on maintaining such a fleet.

I know I know, I am a great proponent of the 6-10 million population theory myself.

But we're talking about White Harbour itself, since you can't take tenants off their fields to make a fleet. Rowers traditionally hail from the poor and landless, who aren't required anywhere else - usually a class found in cities.

Edited by Darth Rivers, 04 May 2012 - 11:35 AM.