104 replies to this topic

[bemused]

brut..I think you're confusing 2 types of coins , which could be contributing to the corruption of your sanity ( a familiar feeling ).

The iron coin Jaqen gives Arya has no monetary value to most people..But a Braavosi ship's captain knows exactly what it is , knows the person who gives it to him is a FM..which is why the whole crew makes sure Arya remembers their names. If someone wants them killed , she at least would be able to say , "I know this man " , and take a pass. Possibly the ship's captain can present the token at the house of B & W and be reimbursed for the passage.

The coins The Alchemist and Arya use in the deaths of Pate and the insurance broker are genuine coins that have been treated with poison.

I don't think the FM code requires that Arya has to die , in any sense of the word.Jaqen and the waif haven't forgotten their families, or deny them.. they just seem to renounce their normal familial identity . I sort of think of the FM as being more like the NW, than being like any of the resurrected beings in the books.

By the Temple of Red and White..do you mean the House of Black and White ?

What makes you say it appears some of the FM can date back centuries ? you mean , personally ?  I must have missed that . Do you remember where that is ?

[bloocanary]

Fishay, on 10 April 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

I would propose that rather than Daario, Jaqen, and the Alchemist all being the same person, they could be Faceless Men using the same face. It seems to me that early FM need the actual face to look like someone else (ala Arya), but the full-on FM can simply  change their face at will. Possibly this hooked nosed, gold toothed, flowing locks face is just a standard FM get up they all learn at one point.

While I think that Jaqen is the Alchemist, I do like this theory of a template face for advanced FM and that Daario (and perhaps Taena's lover) may be another FM. It would explain the striking similarities (hooked nose, scars, gold tooth, curled hair) while also explaining the differences (each FM adds his own touches to the template so it isn't exactly like anyone else's). I really like the idea of Jaqen being Daario, but don't think the timeline works out with Pate.

My own personal favorite Jaqen theory is that the face we see in CoK and the name Jaqen H'ghar are the ones he was born with. When Arya tricks him into serving soup by naming Jaqen as her third life, she observes that his distress is even greater than when he was cuffed to the wagon in the fire. If 'Jaqen' were an assumed name, he could easily get out of the bargain on a technicality (ie, "killing" Jaqen off when he assumes a new persona), so his reaction doesn't make sense unless it's his real name (or at the very least, a name/persona he wishes to return to in the future). He remarks that "Jaqen is as dead as Arry" when he becomes the alchemist, which makes us (and Arya) assume that it's a false name. However, Arry isn't dead...Arya can resume being Arry anytime she likes. Just so, his real identity is shelved for whenever he'd like to return to it. I think this is all a clever-worded bluff to throw Arya and the reader off the trail that Jaqen is his true identity.

This also solves the problem of where (assuming Jaqen is Syrio) Syrio would get a face in the Black Cells without leaving a random dead Lorathi behind. He's done with Syrio's face so at some point transforms into his own identity in the cells.  It's possible that during all the turmoil and upheaval going on in the city and in the castle, his transformation would go unnoticed by the guards. It probably WOULDN'T go unnoticed by his cellmates, which would explain why they're so fearful of him.

Finally, from what Arya's learned is that FM tend to adopt faces that don't stand out in any way when using them for missions. As Jaqen's striking enough to draw attention from the serving girls (and to have Arya observe his handsomeness), it doesn't make sense that this is a face he's chosen to wear for some specific mission, rather it's the one he defaults to. Furthermore, he seems fairly vain when it comes to his appearance as Jaqen (washing/brushing/perfuming his hair), which seems to indicate he has a personal fondness for it (and the book mentions that he seems sad to Arya after becoming the Alchemist).

Edited by bloocanary, 13 April 2012 - 01:30 AM.

[Black Crow]

Just a minor thought on this one. We saw how Arya changed her appearance by having the dead girl's face literally pasted on to her. If we're talking about a form of glamour, would it be necessary to do this every time? Now that the template has been imprinted so to speak might she not be able to assume that face at will and is this what we see when Jaqen draws his hand over his face to assume a new identity when he leaves her.

If so this might in turn explain why someone with the same features could turn up at different locations, ie; they are different people but have used the same template at some point in the past.

It also suggests another way in which Syrio Forel might escape to become Jaqen H'ghar. Its rightly been questioned how he could get away from Meryn Trant without the latter saying anything about it. However picture the scene. The Lannister guardsmen are all groaning on the floor leaving just Ser Meryn looking grim and determined while Syrio has just a broken bit of wooden sword. Syrio smiles and does a face change to become Jaquen...

[CrypticWeirwood]

brut, on 12 April 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

There's one thing that has been slowly corrupting my sanity throughout the entire series: JH giving Arya the iron coin. The iron coin to me is strongly associated with the Gift. At the same time JH does not kill her. Still, according to the FM code, Arya has to die.

She does?  How come?

[CrypticWeirwood]

DragonSpawn, on 12 April 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

and as the Jailer told Jamie - a log is kept of all people in and out...

Hm.  Why did Mr Martin put that particular titbit in there? Seems significant.

[bloocanary]

CrypticWeirwood, on 13 April 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

DragonSpawn, on 12 April 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

and as the Jailer told Jamie - a log is kept of all people in and out...

Hm.  Why did Mr Martin put that particular titbit in there? Seems significant.

Is there more than one jailer, or does the jailer get replaced at some point between Syrio's likely imprisonment and when Yoren collects the three prisoners? It certainly seems possible, given all the mayhem going on at the time. I'd think as long as the record shows three people should be in the Black Cells and three people are led out, no one's going to pay too much attention to the physical appearance of the three prisoners; after all, nothing's stopping Jaqen from giving the name Syrio on his way out if anyone asks. If he comes in all beat up as Syrio and then uses a slight glamour to confuse the guard on the way out, his change could go unnoticed to everyone but his cellmates.

It's also possible that he manages to transform AFTER leaving the cells but before Yoren sees what he looks like. After all, his face is concealed with a hood on the show at the end of Season 1. I know that's mainly used as a placeholder since they hadn't cast Jaqen yet. But it also could play out that way in the book. Jaqen exits the jail as Syrio and manages to cover his face at some point before Yoren gets a good look at him. Then his transformation occurs at some point in the wagon (which still explains why Rorge and Biter are afraid of him as they know he changed identities).

Edited by bloocanary, 13 April 2012 - 01:47 AM.

[Bran Vras]

I have no particular wish that Jaqen to be such and such. But one has to consider the facts. Both Daario and Jaqen have all these facial features: golden tooth, hooked nose, curly hair, and scars. Besides those two and the Alchemist, few faces in the book are described as having just one of these features.

For the golden tooth, which is the most significant hint, I could only find Garin the Orphan (and Mord the gaoler, as Frey Pie notes, but that's only in the TV show). If the Alchemist has a golden tooth, it's not mentioned. The quote about Arya's disguise mentioned upthread tells us that dental features are part of the disguise.

For the hooked nose, there are Sandor Clegane (who has... scars), Hos and Tytos Blackwood, Asha Greyjoy, Xaro, all the Kettelbacks, Taena Merryweather's lover (who has a scar).

I have made no systematic study for long curly hair and facial scars/beard. But I don't find those common in the descriptions we see. So the coincidence of faces cannot be a fortuitous. If one believes that the Alchemist is Jaqen based on facial resemblance, as many people do, then the same reasoning needs to be applied to Daario, especially since Jaqen says he is about to go beyond the Narrow Sea.

As I said in the OP, I am open minded about how one explains this coincidence, but it needs to be explained.

jarl the climber, on 12 April 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I do not think it is possible for Daario to be Jaquen. The timeline would not work out. He would not have had the time to get to Slavers Bay, nor would he have been able to rise to the posistion of captian in so short a time. Remember the FM give the gift of their god. They are not puffed up Bravoosis strutting around like a peacock. Darioo is a killer but not a poisioner. He seems the exact opposite of a FM.

I did a study of the timeline in the OP. I just had a closer look. Jaqen leaves Harrenhal in the middle of ACoK and reappears in Yunkai in the middle of ASoS. According to Errant Bard's timeline, that leaves about four monthes to make the trip.

If Daario is a faceless man sent to Dany, I guess the Stormcrows are sent with him. So there is no problem with Daario becoming quickly captain. The little treason of the two other captains in ASoS could be an arranged trick to impress Dany (and it worked). We never see Daario kill anyone in fact (but he talks about killing all the time).

[bemused]

Black Crow, your escape scenario makes me chuckle, but I can't take it totally seriously,,

But something like the Jaqen face change could have played a part in Syrio's escape , combined with just quick thinking and movement. However , I don't think Syrio was arrested , either... Think of Meryn Trant for a moment , and the kind of jerk he is... After the humiliation he's just suffered at the hands of Syrio , how can we suppose Trant would have merely arrested Syrio ?

Stark household retainers were being slaughtered wholesale. Including Septa Mordane. Would anyone have known or cared about Syrio ? I doubt it...He had no value as a hostage..there was no-one left for him to bear witness against..(except the Lannisters ).. What was there to stop Trant from finishing him off, if he really had him subdued ? Nothing...  If he survives ,I think escape was the only way he could survive.

3 in ,3 out, on the log is fine, but the papers were in order, which they would not have been after Ned's arrest. The old gaoler tells Jaime he thought the 3 were too bad to be of any use even for the watch.He blithers on about the differences between turnkeys and the various ranks of gaolers, what their duties are , etc ,etc. He makes such a big deal over dotting-the-I details in that whole conversation....would the old fuddy duddy have turned the prisoners over anyway ,with an out of date signature ? Seems unlikely.

Syrio is an intelligent man ( and possibly an intelligence man  ) Assuming he escaped ( which I think we must , if he's alive ),what need would he have to put himself in the black cells ? Judging from what we know of him ,his motive in joining Yoren ,after Ned's death, would only be to escort Arya  ( incognito , for her safety )..acting as an unseen guard along the way for as long as he could.Then why would he choose to be manacled to the floor of a cage all the way to the wall , when as another volunteer he could have freedom to act, if needed ? It wouldn't be a wise move.

It is possible Syrio's dead ,and either Jaqen is an FM from the get go who got thrown in the black cells , but that means he would be highly unlikely to survive the fire .The Fire is the key. The way the action is timed in that scene ( and the relationship between R & B ) makes it very probable that he would have died ( as I think Real Jaqen did ).. We know no reason why some other FM would be taking the volunteer route that would be possible for Syrio. .. sure, some random FM could happen upon the scene and take up Jaqen's persona, but then his relationship with Arya would make no sense.  That relationship makes the most sense if he's Syrio , less sense if he's Jaqen from KL ,and none if he's random FM.

boocanary , if the prisoners are manacled hand and foot there wouldn't be much opportunity for hooding and un-hooding somehow. Where would he even get a hood ?

Jaqen's distress at being named by Arya is quite understandable, if Real Jaqen died in the fire. Arya's jaqen didn't kill him.He's already dead, yet Arya's Jaqen has sworn by all the gods ( some of them quite vengeful, as we know ) to kill him . He must either break his oath, or kill the only Jaqen Arya knows .. himself.

[brut]

One problem I have with this is that if Syrio-FM was indeed escorting Arya as a volunteer, and later changed into Jaqen, wouldn't the fact that a volunteer is missing be noticed?

[bloocanary]

bemused, your last bit makes a lot of sense in the context of the fire and almost had me convinced, were it not for the fact that Jaqen goes out of his way to get Arya' attention, introduce himself and offer up his friendship prior to the fire. I suppose it could be a coincidence that the real Jaqen's a thirsty Lothari madman who has a habit of being weirdly formal with random urchin boys and it played into the hands of whoever assumed his face after he died in the fire. But both times it's set up so that Jaqen will owe Arya a favor and can earn her trust by repaying it. Whoever Jaqen is, I think he knows the potential of Arya Stark and tries to earn her trust and make an ally of her from the beginning.

Furthermore, in that introductory scene Jaqen straight-up insults Biter and Rorge and they just take it. Rorge especially would have some sort of foulmouthed retort for a pretty boy going on about how ill-mannered his cellmates are, but he lashes out at Arya instead. Therefore, I think Rorge and Biter are already scared of Jaqen at this point.

No explanation for the hood, unfortunately. Maybe Varys snuck down and gave it to him.

[bemused]

We know Jaqen is a FM. We know the Alchemist is an FM. We don't know that about Daario. Daario has done no killing we've seen that suggests FM tactics.He brags a lot about killing. When he refers to making slaughter a thing of beauty,and the myriad men he's killed , it's directly opposed to the way any FM we've met speaks. We've never heard of an FM taking a company of sellswords with him. The second sons have a history of their own , theyre not an invented company.

We know why people had gold teeth in our world. For Mord's reason. It's a place to keep your gold where it can't be stolen easily. In some cultures it's been considered attractive as well. Tyrosh is known for greed , and flamboyant styles.. might a Tyroshi have a gold tooth or two for those reasons ?

Neither Daario nor Taena's lover 's decriptions match Jaquen or the Alchemist as closely as Jaquen and the Alchemist match.

Edited by bemused, 13 April 2012 - 04:30 AM.

[DragonSpawn]

Arya was paired with an Acolyte for training in her final chapter... his name was mentioned i think but i can't remember it off the top of my head. I think the Kindly Man knows Jacquen H'ghar or at leasts suspects he knows who it is... but as per FM policy his answer to Arya is simple... "I know 'no one' by this name" - i think is the wording? Then later to Arya: Who are you? ... "No one"...

... so Arya is now out training in the 'field' with Acolyte X. With Acolyte Y (Jacquen H'ghar) tied up at the Citadel pretending to be Pate it seems unlikely that the Kindly Man has put Arya back with Jacquen so i'm assuming two seperate Acolytes... EDIT: Unless Pate a.k.a Jaquen -  joined Marwyn the Mage and on his route to find Dany has stopped into the House of B&W to collect Arya (this may also explain why Aryas training was rushed... and there is no reason why Jacquen would not tell Marwyn immediately that he is a FM as Marwyn i'm sure would take a very dim view of how easily Pate sold the safety of the Citadel)

Does anyone know how many FM attended the conference that Arya was serving at in the House of B&W? And when in the timeline this was .. i.e in relation to Jacquen / Daario / The Ghost in Winterfell etc... ? That may give a rough idea of how many FM are in operation at any one time... and where they are likely to be given travel times... i.e. if there were 12 FM at the meeting - were there 12 people like Daario / Jacquen etc... who disappeared for a few months around this time?? Also worth bearing in mind that had Jacquen been at the meeting Arya probably would have recognised him as i don't think they wear disguises at those meetings. (Although there is an argument that any person can wear three different faces + their own... e.g. top layer = Glamour ... beneath that they are wearing the leather face of some dead person... beneath that they have the make-up and mastery of their facial muscles to disguise themselves... then their real face underneath...)

Also the robes are probably significant too... Black / White Acolytes - White / Black Priests... Sitting between the Moonsingers and the Red Priests is somewhat telling... with Moon = Night / RP = Day. I find when i come across things like this it's best not to think in terms of life and death - good and bad... because we know the cold magic associated with the long night is not always evil e.g (Coldhands) and Both Ice and Fire can bring back the dead.... with this in mind it seems a really stupid thing for the kindly man to tell Arya about "Valar Morghullis". "All men must die Arya, else somewhere in the world would be a man who lives forever - do you know of any such man?"... when in fact the two temples of worship in the immediate vicintiy of the house of B&W may both have associations with immortality... I somehow doubt that the peace between them is due to ignorance and is more to do with balance...

Edited by DragonSpawn, 13 April 2012 - 05:38 AM.

[bloocanary]

You know, I've been struggling all night trying to come up with a plausible way for Syrio to become Jaqen while in the black cells and completely forgot that I decided a few days ago while rereading his intro scene that I actually don't believe Jaqen is Syrio.

Arya observes that something about Jaqen, like the way that he talks, reminds her of Syrio. George loves to play guessing games (I'm having horrible flashbacks of a certain froggy avatar) and is very good at it, so this clue just seems too obvious. If it were actually Syrio, I think he would've left it at Jaqen reminding her of someone she knew but couldn't place.

But then, we don't know he's a Faceless Man when she observes this so maybe it's something we're supposed to overlook until later.

[TheDrawback]

Hmmmmm you've definately given me something to think about

[Bran Vras]

The identity of Jaqen and Syrio Forel is one of the great recurring topics on this forums. I didn't feel the need to return to it once more in the OP.

It might be good to keep in mind that support for any theory should come from the text rather than from our imagination.

Did Syrio survive his confrontation with Meryn Trant? Maybe. But I have yet to see a plausible scenario in which Syrio took the appearance of Jaqen, either in the cells of later. Maybe it's an original suggestion that the real Jaqen died in the fire and that Syrio took his place. But it's full of problems. The first one I can think of is: why would the fake Jaqen later say that the Red God has been deprived of three deaths by Arya? (Apologies if that has been addressed, I am not very motivated to look into that.)

Here is an interesting question perhaps. Jaqen surely doesn't believe a life is due to the Red God every time someone escapes a fire. Why did Jaqen think that that particular fire was a sacrifice to the Red God? Was some prayer pronounced? Was the building or the wagon special in some way? In other words, was a ritual accomplished inadvertently? (When "Mance" is given to the fire by Melisandre in ADwD, he is in a cage partly made of weirwood.)

In the OP, I suggested that the red and white colours on the head of Jaqen refer to the temples of Braavos. We never saw the priests in Braavos. Considering that the temples are side by side in Braavos, and therefore that the worshippers, priesthood etc can only be on good terms (at least they certainly were when the temples were built), could it be that they have some joint priesthood or a joint class of servants with red and white hair?

Edited by Bran Vras, 13 April 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[brut]

So, if we draw parallels between that fight, and Syrio’s encounter with the guards, we are looking at someone not much taller than Arya, but clearly able to counter opponents. Now, I doubt however good Syrio’s wooden sword / rapier skills are, they will always come short of brute force. And unless he can offer certain counterweight to that force, he is doomed. So, what we see during  the encounter is:

Quote

… The stick moved again, blindly fast. Arya heard a loud crack as the sword went clattring to the stone floor. “My hand”, the guardsman yelped, cradling his broken fingers.
…Syrio did not wait for them to reach him, but spun to his left. Arya had never seen a man move so fast. He checked one sword with his stick and shirled away from a second. Off balance, the second man lurched into the first. Syrio put a boot to his back and the red cloacks went down together. The third guard came leaping over them, slashing at the water dancer’s head. Syrio ducked under his blade and thrust upward. The guardsman fell screaming as blood welled from the wet red hole where his left eye had been.
The fallen men were getting up. Syrio kicked one in the face and snatched the steel cap off the other’s head. The dagger man stabbed at him. Syrio caught the thrust in the helmet and hattered the man’s kneecap with his stick. The last red cloack shouted a curse and charged, hacking down with both hands on his sword. Syrio rolled right, and the butcher’s cut caught the helmetless man between neck and shoulder as he struggled to his knees. The longsword crunched through tmail and leather and flesh. The man on his knees shrieked. Before his killer could wrench free his blade, Syrio jabbed him in the apple of his throat. The guardsman gave a choked cry and staggered back, clutching at his neck, his face blackening.

He breaks finger bones, shatters knee cap, gouges eyes and ruins people’s throats practically with a wooden stick. None of this can be explained exclusively by his speed or agility, and clearly, to do so he needs to have strength that is excessive to his looks.

To draw the line: after reading Jon’s encounter with Mance, and discovering about the FM, for me, Syrio identity is definitely a glamour (or one of the faces used by the FM). So, the assumption that makes sense for me is that following the fight with Sir Trant, Syrio either changes back into his previous state, or assumes new personality. And here’s my theory:

1. Before appearing as Syrio, the FM behind him follows the happenings at the Red Keep closely. He monitors the development of the game, and decides to be involved, seeing how the situation spirals out of control, so
2. He assumes the personality of Syrio, answers the call of the Hand for a dancing master, and starts teaching Arya
3. Following the confrontation with the guardsmen and Sir Trant, he escapes. While in hiding, the FM deducts that Ned will probably be allowed to take black, so he plots to join the escort of new recruits, and monitors the Wandering Crow Yoren, but fails to account for Joff’s cruelty and witnesses Ned’s beheading. He also realizes Yoren takes Arya with him.
4. After the execution, the FM assumes personality of a woman and appeals the King to give her Ned’s bones as she loved him long time ago. Joffrey, being what he is orders her capture and throws her into dungeons.
5. I assume the FM needs to be in the dungeons for some undisclosed purpose, and I assume he is there to discover more of the ways in/out of the dungeons to ease his access to the King’s Landing. Or maybe there is something else/someone else in the dungeons that he requires. Nevertheless, while in the dungeons, the FM assumes personality of JH estimating that since the Wandering Crow is there, he may as well be freed to join the NW.
6. Which actually happens…
7. Now, what is strange, is that after finishing it with Chiswyck and Weese, JH actually seems to push Arya towards saying Joffrey’s name:

Quote

… He was sworn. “Even if I named the king…”
“Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies.” He knelt beside her, so they were face-to-face, “A girl wispers if she fears to speak aloud. Wisper it now. Is it Joffrey?”

And considering this, it seems his previous access to the dungeons would pay off. If he was really set to write off Joff, then knowing his ways in and out of the King’s Landing would give an enormous advantage. Arya never actually says Joff’s name, but the FM implies that he has “duties to do”…

[Frey Pie]

brut, on 13 April 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

So, if we draw parallels between that fight, and Syrio’s encounter with the guards, we are looking at someone not much taller than Arya, but clearly able to counter opponents. Now, I doubt however good Syrio’s wooden sword / rapier skills are, they will always come short of brute force. And unless he can offer certain counterweight to that force, he is doomed. So, what we see during  the encounter is:



He breaks finger bones, shatters knee cap, gouges eyes and ruins people’s throats practically with a wooden stick. None of this can be explained exclusively by his speed or agility, and clearly, to do so he needs to have strength that is excessive to his looks.

To draw the line: after reading Jon’s encounter with Mance, and discovering about the FM, for me, Syrio identity is definitely a glamour (or one of the faces used by the FM). So, the assumption that makes sense for me is that following the fight with Sir Trant, Syrio either changes back into his previous state, or assumes new personality. And here’s my theory:

1. Before appearing as Syrio, the FM behind him follows the happenings at the Red Keep closely. He monitors the development of the game, and decides to be involved, seeing how the situation spirals out of control, so
2. He assumes the personality of Syrio, answers the call of the Hand for a dancing master, and starts teaching Arya
3. Following the confrontation with the guardsmen and Sir Trant, he escapes. While in hiding, the FM deducts that Ned will probably be allowed to take black, so he plots to join the escort of new recruits, and monitors the Wandering Crow Yoren, but fails to account for Joff’s cruelty and witnesses Ned’s beheading. He also realizes Yoren takes Arya with him.
4. After the execution, the FM assumes personality of a woman and appeals the King to give her Ned’s bones as she loved him long time ago. Joffrey, being what he is orders her capture and throws her into dungeons.
5. I assume the FM needs to be in the dungeons for some undisclosed purpose, and I assume he is there to discover more of the ways in/out of the dungeons to ease his access to the King’s Landing. Or maybe there is something else/someone else in the dungeons that he requires. Nevertheless, while in the dungeons, the FM assumes personality of JH estimating that since the Wandering Crow is there, he may as well be freed to join the NW.
6. Which actually happens…
7. Now, what is strange, is that after finishing it with Chiswyck and Weese, JH actually seems to push Arya towards saying Joffrey’s name:



And considering this, it seems his previous access to the dungeons would pay off. If he was really set to write off Joff, then knowing his ways in and out of the King’s Landing would give an enormous advantage. Arya never actually says Joff’s name, but the FM implies that he has “duties to do”…

Interesting analysis. I liked the first part better of your explanation of events though. It does seem Syrio must be stronger then he looks but perhaps he has wiry strength-ie he may not look strong but has a certain toughness. Also is it known that FM can change into FWM? It does seem unlikely though that the FM was really caught unless he wanted to be

[CrypticWeirwood]

Syrio does not display preternatural strength, as Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt appeared to.  The appearance of unnatural stength and endurance in glamoured Mance stems from the fundamental disparity in the two men’s frames and builds; per the Wiki, Mance “is a big man, long limbed and lean”, whereas Rattleshirt “is a small man”. That alone does much to explain why Mance fought much, much better than Rattleshirt should have been able to, and the fact that Mance was indeed known as a great fighter finishes off the explanation.  There is no magical strength here.

Syrio in fighting off the guards by quickly crippling them displays no special powers that cannot be explained by knowing that Syrio is who he is: the First Sword of Bravos. He is a master at fencing and unarmoured combat, and clearly also of unarmed combat as well. He uses everything and anything at his improvised disposal, and he delivers each stroke with surgical precision, knowing just where to strike and how. He is quick as only a lifetime master in these things could be. Think of the great masters of martial arts; they had no trouble defending themselves against larger opponents of lesser skill, and there are ways of using an opponent’s greater mass against them.

No special magical intervention is needed to explain Syrio’s martial prowess, and of Mance-as-Rattleshirt, it suffices that he was fighting truly as himself, the fell and formidable King Beyond the Wall, not as little Rattleshirt whom he was glamoured up to resemble.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 13 April 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[DragonSpawn]

CrypticWeirwood, on 13 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Syrio does not display preternatural strength, as Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt appeared to.  The appearance of unnatural stength and endurance in glamoured Mance stems from the fundamental disparity in the two men’s frames and builds; per the Wiki, Mance “is a big man, long limbed and lean”, whereas Rattleshirt “is a small man”. That alone does much to explain why Mance fought much, much better than Rattleshirt should have been able to, and the fact that Mance was indeed known as a great fighter finishes off the explanation.  There is no magical strength here.

Syrio in fighting off the guards by quickly crippling them displays no special powers that cannot be explained by knowing that Syrio is who he is: the First Sword of Bravos. He is a master at fencing and unarmoured combat, and clearly also of unarmed combat as well. He uses everything and anything at his improvised disposal, and he delivers each stroke with surgical precision, knowing just where to strike and how. He is quick as only a lifetime master in these things could be. Think of the great masters of martial arts; they had no trouble defending themselves against larger opponents of lesser skill, and there are ways of using an opponent’s greater mass against them.

No special magical intervention is needed to explain Syrio’s martial prowess, and of Mance-as-Rattleshirt, it suffices that he was fighting truly as himself, the fell and formidable King Beyond the Wall, not as little Rattleshirt whom he was glamoured up to resemble.

Agree ... Syrio used the weak points in the Red Cloaks armor that he could take advantage of... that and the fact their armor and close proximity made them cumbersome and easy to throw around... Meryn Trant had full armor with no way to poke his eyes or anything... and was a more skilled Knight.... this is not reflected well in the TV show... but is mentioned in the books.

Edited by DragonSpawn, 13 April 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[jon rr stark]

Hasen't GRRM said somewhere. pretty much implying that Syrio is dead?