104 replies to this topic

[Bran Vras]

A few words about a context which would explain the presence of Jaqen H'ghar at Dany's court. Even if Daario is not Jaqen, or even not a Faceless Man, most of what follows applies.


The return of dragons is of tremendous importance for Westeros, even if only Doran Martell, Euron Greyjoy and Marwyn the Mage seem to take the measure of it at the moment. It is no less important for Essos which has suffered millenia of Valyrian rule. It's likely that the news of the return of dragons elicited a strong reaction in the Free Cities. We have two hints of that in the book concerning the two Free Cities we know best, and which might be the most important.

Braavos

When the Iron Banker reach the Wall, he reacts sternly at a light-hearted remark of Jon Snow

Quote

“My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.”

The Iron Bank in Braavos has its seat near the palace of the Sealord, a probable sign that the Bank is close to the Sealord. We have seen no sign of the reaction of Braavos to the return of dragons. (It's perhaps noteworthy that the Sealord is dying in ADwD.)

Volantis

The city is ruled by a triarchy, but the aristocracy of Volantis is composed of pure-blooded descendants of the Valyrians. Aboard the Shy Maid, young Aegon recited a little history lesson to Haldon.

Quote

“The tigers held sway for almost a century after the Doom of Valyria. For a time they were successful. A Volantene fleet took Lys and a Volantene army captured Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the Westerosi Storm King. Braavos provided a Lyseni exile with a hundred warships, Aegon Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone on the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in rebellion. The war left the Disputed Lands a waste, and freed Lys and Myr from the yoke. The tigers suffered other defeats as well. The fleet they sent to reclaim Valyria vanished in the Smoking Sea. Qohor and Norvos broke their power on the Rhoyne when the fire galleys fought on Dagger Lake. Out of the east came the Dothraki, driving smallfolk from their hovels and nobles from their estates, until only grass and ruins remained from the forest of Qohor to the headwaters of the Selhoru. After a century of war, Volantis found herself broken, bankrupt, and depopulated. It was then that the elephants rose up. They have held sway ever since. Some years the tigers elect a triarch, and some years they do not, but never more than one, so the elephants have ruled the city for three hundred years.”
“Just so,” said Haldon. “And the present triarchs?” “Malaquo is a tiger, Nyessos and Doniphos are elephants.” “And what lesson can we draw from Volantene history?” “If you want to conquer the world, you best have dragons.”

In ADwD, it is expected that a large Volantene fleet is sailing to Meereen (but a close look reveals no real evidence of that).  Moreover an election was taking place in Meereen during ADwD and a change of power within the triarchy is about to happen. When Arianne Martell came to see her father after her failed rebellion, Doran is playing with cyvasse pieces

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“A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes,” he muttered, as he put the elephant aside.

A comment I took as meaning that the Volantene will not deal with Dany by brute force (and particular not simply by sending a fleet).

My impression is that the Braavosi will want to eliminate dragons and the Volantene will want to gain control of them, since they consider themselves heir to the Valyrians (Volantis, "first daughter of Valyria" etc). However, for those great powers, it seems good policy to send a company of sellswords at the center of action, and an agent of the highest quality at court to watch closely the situation. For whom really work the Windblown, Long Lances, Stormcrows, Cats, and Second Sons, I can not say.

Daario's company, the Stormcrows, has no discernable history (compare with the Second Sons, the Windblown, the Golden Company). Jorah Mormont does not know them, which is curious for a former sellsword. They claim to be a brotherhood of Free Men. But, after the end of the initial triumvirate, Daario seems to have absolute authority over them (killing his serjeants without judgement). It's easy to imagine that the murder of the two other captains of the Stormcrows by Daario was a ploy to gain Dany's trust. So I find no reason to disbelieve that the Stormcrows have hidden loyalties.

Edited by Bran Vras, 18 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[bemused]

  What Varys says to Ned may or may not be true..it's always hard to know with Varys... but it could certainly be true, if only because his plans for Aegon ( and / or Dany) were not yet ready to be brought to fruition. ( No one could have known , at that point , that Dany would manage to hatch the eggs , and I'm sure it added an interesting wrinkle to Varys / Illyrio's plans .)

And certainly, an FM could have been sent for Robert , but by whom ? Who could have , or would have sustained the cost ?  And at that point , it would have been contrary to the interests of the Iron Bank ( they were concerned about the amount of debt Robert was running up, but payments were still being made.) We've seen FM turn down contracts because they know the person. I somehow don't think you could hire an FM if your objective would harm the Iron Bank, or Braavos' commercial or political status.

Cersei ,or LF favour using their own resources in these matters . The Martells might have sent one for Cersei to make way for Margaery..., I suppose..but it would have impoverished them , so I think probably not.

[Ditocorto]

Quote

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth

this is what Jaqen mophs into after saying farewell to Arya, now you all have seen the game of thrones version of Syrio right? if not look at this

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=79Invy0tvOc

but in the books Syrio is, I quote from the wiki, "a slight, bald man with a beak of a nose", here I see curly black hairs...

I think the tv series will give us clues, if only because the story it's being slightly "dumbed down" for the less receptive tv audience (see Loras and Renly scenes), in this case I think we will see Jaqen say goodbye to Arya, walking away and then change back into Syrio, away from her eyes, but right into ours.

Edited by Ditocorto, 19 April 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[Bran Vras]

An idea came to me about Jaqen. It is said that there is a scar on his right cheek. The scar is visible as well on the Alchemist's face. If one of Daario's scars is facial, it is hidden by his beard.

ADwD informs us that slaves in Volantis are marked on the face, often on the cheek (see Mrs Vogarro). Some freed slaves remove the mark and are left with a scar. Hence Jaqen's scar can be a removed slave mark. Given that the faceless men originate from the slaves of Valyria, and that there is a continuity between Valyria and Volantis, that suggests a bolder idea.

I don't know why Daario, the Alchemist and Jaqen have such similar faces. It's possible that the same face has been dispatched to several agents. If that's possible the corresponding character might have lived far back in time. And the Kindly Man mentions the first Faceless Man to Arya...

About the rarity of golden teeth, I wrote the following for another thread.

We have four occurences of golden teeth: Daario, Jaqen, Garin and Mord the Goaler (not only in the TV show, but also in the book, small mistake in my OP). Not a single lord of Westeros is described with a golden tooth. Teeth are often mentioned in the books: broken teeth (Brienne, Robert, Theon, Tyrion), crooked teeth (Ygritte), toothless old men (Walder Frey, Lord Locke), rotten black teeth (the lord of the Sisters), red teeth (sourleaf), blue teeth (shade of the evening), a wooden prothesis (Dywen of the Night's Watch), filed teeth (Biter, some wildlings)... GRRM pays attention to teeth in his descriptions. If golden teeth are common, why do Varys, Pycelle and the wealthy insurance man killed by Arya miss teeth?

Of course, the occurrences in the text might not reflect the rarity of golden teeth in GRRM's world.

How probable are golden teeth in a medieval world? I made some inquiry online. I found for instance this, where I read

Quote

Gold Prothese
Until the eighteenth century, the dentures were made of human teeth (those extracted from the patient or from cadavers and sculpted) linked by ties of gold threads. Earlier still , some were carved in a variety of organic materials such as bones or teeth of  horses, cattles, hippopotamuses… or even in white wood. Fortunately we could go further off  thanks to apothecaries who were able to pave the way toward new directions.

There are earlier cases of false golden teeth used for show only (they weren't suitable for masticating), and of cavity fillings by gold. So we shall not use our modern ideas of golden teeth and apply them to a medieval world. Only wealthy people can get them, and only if the dentist skills are available. Perhaps there is just one capable enough dentist in Westeros, just like there is only one armourer able to meld colour in the metal of armours (It's Tobhos Mott, not even a Westerosi). Perhaps, there is none at all and the golden teeth we see all come from the Free Cities. In any case, we never see a specialist in dentistry at any point in the books, despite all the teeth problems people have.

Whether one approaches the question from the realistic perspective of from the point of view of occurences in the book, it seems to me that golden teeth are very rare.

[Armstark]

I think what you are missing Bran is that GRRM describes all those people for us to get to know them, that we can picture them and get an idea about who they are. A golden tooth makes a person look some kind of badass or sleezy or whatever you associate it with. A golden tooth would be out of character for Varys or Pycelle, it would give us a false idea about who they are. And that is why they don't have one, not because they cant afford it or it is extremly rare. Plus what purpose would it serve if every second character has the same prominent features? A wooden prothesis is only mentioned once in the books. Are they rare too?

I agree that  "new" Jagen and Daario share some looks and they could be the same person. But again: Why? You failed to provide a feasible theory how and why they would be the same person or have the same face as an FM. /that is no accusation, I know you said pretty much that in your OP, but for me to believe Daario=Jagen I need a reason.

The timeline issues outlined by others in this thread contradict the notion that they are one person who traveled back and forth. Plus nobody could come up with a plausible theory why Daario/Jagen even would do that.

We see hundreds of faces in the house of Black and White, why would they employ the same face for two agents?

I am sorry but I see no hint in the books for your theory other than looks.

[Bran Vras]

Frankly, Amstark, I thought my observation that Daario has the same facial features than later Jaqen to be remarkable, and I have been disappointed to see how little people are enthusiastic about it (I have tried to launch a thread in the General Forum, and the discussion has been too contentious for my taste.).

I acknowledge that I don't have a good theory that explains the fact. The timeline does not seem to preclude that Daario went back to Oldtown and back to Meereen (not easy, but possible, I have worked out the details). However, one has to abandon that the Alchemist is Pate for that to work (I am willing to). Some people have issues with hair length also, but it's not serious.

I don't like very much the notion that several agents can have the same face. (But some people prefer that option.)

I feel certain though that it can't be coincidence that GRRM has described Jaqen with a hooked nose, golden tooth, curly hair, and a scar  (all uncommon to very rare features), and put the same features in Daario (with a little discussion possible about the scar). Beside the Alchemist, the only other character in the series who has at least two of these features is the Hound (hooked nose and a scar, and the scar is very different). So I am left with a question mark.

Edited by Bran Vras, 07 May 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[Queen of Winter]

Bran Vras, on 07 May 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

I feel certain though that it can't be coincidence that GRRM has described Jaqen with a hooked nose, golden tooth, curly hair, and a scar  (all uncommon to very rare features), and put the same features in Daario (with a little discussion possible about the scar). Beside the Alchemist, the only other character in the series who has at least two of these features is the Hound (hooked nose and a scar, and the scar is very different). So I am left with a question mark.

Mord, the gaoler at the Eryie, has facial scars and gold teeth. The latter a result of the gold Tyrion gave him, after his trial by combat.

From AGoT:

The turnkey was twenty stone of gross stupidity, with brown rotting teeth and small dark eyes. The left side of his face was slick with scar where an axe had cut off his ear and part of his cheek.

And later in AFFC:

When he spoke, Sansa saw to her astonishment that the gaoler’s teeth were made of gold.

[Bran Vras]

Queen of Winter, on 07 May 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Mord, the gaoler at the Eryie, has facial scars and gold teeth. The latter a result of the gold Tyrion gave him, after his trial by combat.

From AGoT:

The turnkey was twenty stone of gross stupidity, with brown rotting teeth and small dark eyes. The left side of his face was slick with scar where an axe had cut off his ear and part of his cheek.

And later in AFFC:

When he spoke, Sansa saw to her astonishment that the gaoler’s teeth were made of gold.

Good! Any other example of a character matching, even remotely, Jaqen's second face?

(I have tried to looked exhaustively at curly hair, golden teeth and hooked nose, and its synonym "beak of a nose", but not scars.)

[Queen of Winter]

Bran Vras, on 07 May 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Good! Any other example of a character matching, even remotely, Jaqen's second face?

(I have tried to looked exhaustively at curly hair, golden teeth and hooked nose, and its synonym "beak of a nose", but not scars.)

Hmmmm....Osney Kettleblack has a hooked nose and his face/cheek is scarred where Alayaya scratched him.

Unlike his brothers, Osney Kettleblack was clean-shaven, so the scratches showed plainly on his bare cheeks.

Though he had the same black hair, hooked nose, and easy smile as his brother Osmund, one cheek bore three long scratches, courtesy of one of Tyrion’s whores.

EDIT: The only person I can come up with with curly hair and scar is Myrcella. (No gold teeth or hooked nose here though!) She has long, blonde, curly hair--not to mention she lost an ear and gained a facial scar...a "gift" from Gerold Dayne/Darkstar.

Edited by Queen of Winter, 08 May 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[Bran Vras]

That's exactly the conversation I wanted to have in this thread, Queen of Winter. I noted that the Kettlebacks, Blackwoods, and some Greyjoys have a hooked nose. But not many more people (I recall Syrio Forel, and Sandor Clegane).

it seems to me that after doing this research one realizes how unlikely it is that the facial features of Jaqen and Daario coincide. What do you think?

[Queen of Winter]

Bran Vras, on 08 May 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

That's exactly the conversation I wanted to have in this thread, Queen of Winter. I noted that the Kettlebacks, Blackwoods, and some Greyjoys have a hooked nose. But not many more people (I recall Syrio Forel, and Sandor Clegane).

it seems to me that after doing this research one realizes how unlikely it is that the facial features of Jaqen and Daario coincide. What do you think?

Well, personally, I'm not sure what to make of the theory you've created, Bran. It's an interesting take though.

After my last post  and mentioning Darkstar, I thought it curious that he's got silver/white hair with the black streak in it. It made me think of the House of the Black and White. (Does anyone else have hair that's divided into/or by colors, other than Jaquen?) I tend to view that black streak as representing the "evil" within him (if you will).

Also, it's stated he's got an aquiline nose....which means hooked or curved like a beak. ( I did a quick search of the thread and I don't think you mentioned him as having that feature?). No scars that I know of though....

Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black.

Edited by Queen of Winter, 09 May 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

OK, you may laugh at me, but I'm starting a bit of a research now, and it goes like this:
AGOT:

• beak of a nose - Syrio Forel
  
• crooked nose - Cohollo
  
• scarred face - Mord
  
• scarred face - Hound
  
• no golden tooth - only Tyrions promise to Mord.

I would point your attention to the fact, that Syrio was always clicking his teeth, and Dywen was sucking at his wooden teeth - it's not only the material of teeth that is important in GRRM's narration, but also characters behavior.
More summary will follow.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

second post:
ACOK:

• hooked nose - Kettleblacks
  
• hawk's beak of a nose - Asha Greyjoy
  
• beak of a nose - Aeron Greyjoy
  
• 
  beak of a nose - Xaro Xhoan Daxos
  
• 
  golden tooth, black curls, scar, hooked nose - Jaqen

to be continued..

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

third post:
ASOS:

• golden tooth, curly hair (dyed) - Daario Naharis
  
• great hooked nose - Oswell (Kettleblack)
  
• scarred face - Hookface Will
  
• scarred face - Sallor the Bald (of the Stormcrows)

I recall, on this thread were was a talk about a FM disguising himself as a woman (speculation). We have in ASOS Varys disguised as a woman, so why not FM also?

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

fourth post:
AFfC:

• golden tooth - Garin of the Orphans (given to him by Arienne)
  
• nose like a hawk - Humfrey Wagstaff (Lord Grandison’s castellan)
  
• crooked nose, scar near his ear - Ser Hyle Hunt
  
• 
  
• aquiline nose - SerGerold Dayne
  
• hooked nose - a Fat Fellow (in the House of Black and White)
  
• beak of a nose - Symond Templeton a Knight of Ninestars
  
• hooked nose, scar, black curls - Alchemist (actualy, I haven't spotted a golden tooth here)
  
• black curly hair - Alleras (some say Sarella?)
  
• teeth made of gold - Mord (not TOOTH - but TEETH!!!)

I don't have a digital version of ADWD (only a REAL one!) so that'll be my last post on a subject.
Bran Vras, as much as I love this discussion, and your theories in general, I afraid, this time it is not really working - it's problematic to trace a specific FM, while basing the assumptions upon such common features as black curly hear/facial scar/hooked nose... And even golden teeth (as can be seen in my posts), are not THAT unique in Westeros.

Edited by Vic-tarion Rattlehead, 10 May 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[Bran Vras]

Thank you Victarion. I did the same study than you, perhaps not as exhaustively, but was a bit shy to post the full results. However I did not reach the same conclusion. I think that the combination of the four features (golden tooth, scar, hooked nose, curly hair) is distinctive enough, and that GRRM did not put them in Daario by accident. After all, GRRM knew we would be watching the reappearance of Jaqen, and he only gave us these features to detect him.

(I suspect Mord's teeth are in a category of their own.)

Apparently this is not convincing enough. And I have no good theory to offer for now.

And Queen of Winter, thank you. I thought aquiline meant another type of nose (I found out that it comes from latin: aquila=eagle).

[Skillet]

I'm sure this may have been discussed in other threads, but the only person we really know who switches identities besides FMs is Varys. Is there the possibility that he is some kind of rogue FM? Rather than be "no one" and have no agenda, he has a very specific agenda, but is using the skills of a FM to carry it out?

[bemused]

Varys uses a mummer's methods for disguise..and he says he was a mummer in the past , so, no.

[ghotibowl]

Bran Vras, on 07 May 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Good! Any other example of a character matching, even remotely, Jaqen's second face?

(I have tried to looked exhaustively at curly hair, golden teeth and hooked nose, and its synonym "beak of a nose", but not scars.)

In The Blind Girl chapter, Arya is feeling the face of a dead man and she remarks that he had, among other featutres, (thick?) curly hair. This could possibly be an implication that curly hair is not uncommon, especially in the Free Cities. And among the thousands of faces in the HoBW's vault (according to Arya), there surely must be more than one that has curly hair and a hooked nose and facial scars, right?

I, for one, am not a fan of Jaqen being Daario, partly because I like Jaqen but not Daario But I also think that the FM would not be so inefficient as to send one man on two (seemingly top priority) missions that take place on separate continents, no matter how high ranking Jaqen might be.

I used to think Sryio might be Jaqen, but I don't believe it anymore. I don't think the FM would waste one of their super secretive, highly effective, über ninja assassins just to train a little girl. Sure, they could have planned ahead of time and saw potential in Arya or something, but at this time she could barely teach Nymeria to fetch her things, let alone warg into her. And her fighting skills were not very impressive, though she did have determination (but that's hardly enough for the FM to seek her out).

Some would also argue that Syrio, as an FM, would be used to infiltrate KL and work some undercover political job, but if that were the case, why would he agree to go to Winterfell after his job was done? This then leads to the possibility that Syrio's purpose is to get to the Starks/North/Wall, but if that were so, then why go through all the trouble of going to KL first? He could have gone straight to the North.

But the above is all assuming that the FM have some political agenda, which I don't think is the case. I think their motives lie more along the issue of Dragons and magic and such, and they could care less about the political happenings in Westeros since their organization has existed for many years and no king or queen has bothered to meddle in their affairs or anything.

Wow, okay I said much more than intended! I actually don't have many complete theories ATM because a lot of them depend on a other wild theory being true, and from there everything just gets too messy x_x

Anyyyyywhooo, tl;dr: Arya found a boy with black curly hair, Jaqen is not Daario or Syrio, and FM do not care for politics

EDIT: and for anyone who compare(s/d) Sryio to the new Jaqen/Alchemist, remember that he is bald in the book!

Edited by ghotibowl, 26 May 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[ghotibowl]

Double post!

Edited by ghotibowl, 26 May 2012 - 12:26 PM.