105 replies to this topic

[Chronicler]

Just been curious about this, since it's both patrilineal and matrilineal.

But the logical conclusion of this is that in the end the entirity of Dorne would be nobility lol (since no-one stops being nobility then logically).

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

The first born be it a girl or a boy is the heir and the next prince keeps the name Martell, even if its a girl and she marries a guy the guy takes the Martell name

[Apple Martini]

I don't understand your point about all of Dorne being noble. What?

The only difference in Dorne is that the oldest child inherits, period, not just the oldest boy. And in instances where a woman inherits land/titles in her own right, she would retain her family's name — Doran, Oberyn and Elia's mother kept the Martell name and passed it on to them, for example, even though she was married.

[Chronicler]

Apple Martini, on 08 April 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

I don't understand your point about all of Dorne being noble. What?

The only difference in Dorne is that the oldest child inherits, period, not just the oldest boy. And in instances where a woman inherits land/titles in her own right, she would retain her family's name — Doran, Oberyn and Elia's mother kept the Martell name and passed it on to them, for example, even though she was married.

Well, the entire point with having either a patrilineal or matrilineal system is that at sometime someone stops being noble.

For example, our tradition have been patrilineal, so the children of a daughter of a lord can't be noble unless hur husband is noble, but the children of the lords son are noble, even if it's a second son.
For nobility to work someone must stop being noble, or in the end, all of Dorne would be nobility.

What I don't get is how that work and how they decide who get what names etc.

[Apple Martini]

Chronicler, on 08 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Well, the entire point with having either a patrilineal or matrilineal system is that at sometime someone stops being noble.

For example, our tradition have been patrilineal, so the children of a daughter of a lord can't be noble unless hur husband is noble, but the children of the lords son are noble, even if it's a second son.
For nobility to work someone must stop being noble, or in the end, all of Dorne would be nobility.

What I don't get is how that work and how they decide who get what names etc.

The noble families would still all marry amongst themselves, either within Dorne or among other noble families in Westeros or Essos. It's not like you have Dornish peasants who are also noble.

And we've explained that the name goes with whoever in the marriage is the actual ruler. If a woman inherits land and titles in her own right and marries a non-heir male, he would take her name. If two heirs marry each other, they might combine their names (for example, the Martells' full surname is actually Nymeros Martell, because Nymeria and the Prince of Dorne married as equals). If a non-heir woman married a male heir, she would take his last name.

[master]

Quote

Well, the entire point with having either a patrilineal or matrilineal system is that at sometime someone stops being noble.

For example, our tradition have been patrilineal, so the children of a daughter of a lord can't be noble unless hur husband is noble, but the children of the lords son are noble, even if it's a second son.
For nobility to work someone must stop being noble, or in the end, all of Dorne would be nobility.

What I don't get is how that work and how they decide who get what names etc.

what I understand of westeros, besides dorne, if that any legitimate child of a highborn noblemen is automatically highborn and would take their housename. if a woman marries she would take her husbands house name. in dorne the difference seems to be that the one of lower rank would take the one of higher rank, for example if elia was heir to dorne and married viserys than viserys would be a martell and not a targaryan.

[Chronicler]

Apple Martini, on 08 April 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

The noble families would still all marry amongst themselves, either within Dorne or among other noble families in Westeros or Essos. It's not like you have Dornish peasants who are also noble.

And we've explained that the name goes with whoever in the marriage is the actual ruler. If a woman inherits land and titles in her own right and marries a non-heir male, he would take her name. If two heirs marry each other, they might combine their names (for example, the Martells' full surname is actually Nymeros Martell, because Nymeria and the Prince of Dorne married as equals). If a non-heir woman married a male heir, she would take his last name.

Yeah, and that's the simple part, but then what is the children of the second sons son? or whatever. In western nobility of our time those sons would be nobility as well, but not the daughters.
It's pretty obvious that if enough time passes then all of Dorne would be nobility in the end, since no-one ever stops being nobility.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

Okay lets say that Arianne inherits Dorne and a scenario like this occurs:
1.- She has a kid (gender doesn't matter)
2.- She has another kid, this time a girl
3.- While Arianne is alive her second kid, the girl, marries and takes her husbands surname.
4.- Arianne's married girl has kids of her own, Arianne is still alive.
5.- Arianne dies, Dorne passes to the first kid.
6.- The first kid, who currently runs Dorne dies, without ever having any kids of his/her own.
7.- Dorne passes to the second kid, the girl, who also took her husband's surname.

So my question is, would the new Princess of Dorne change her family's name to Martell? Or would she keep it and just change the name of the whole Martell dynasty to her husband's name ? Or would she just keep her name and change her kid's names to Martell ? Or she and her kids would keep their names and only when she has grandkids would they take the Martell surname ?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Chronicler, on 08 April 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Yeah, and that's the simple part, but then what is the children of the second sons son? or whatever. In western nobility of our time those sons would be nobility as well, but not the daughters.
It's pretty obvious that if enough time passes then all of Dorne would be nobility in the end, since no-one ever stops being nobility.

What are you talking about? Sansa Stark is a noble, married or not. Margaery Tyrell is a noble, married or not. If they died as widows, neither of them would stop being "noble"

Even the second son's sons or the second daughter's daughters from a noble family don't marry peasants in the rest of Westeros, so your point is moot

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 08 April 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[Chronicler]

Ramsay Gimp, on 08 April 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

What are you talking about? Sansa Stark is a noble, married or not. Margaery Tyrell is a noble, married or not. If they died as widows, neither of them would stop being "noble"

Even the second son's sons or the second daughter's daughters from a noble family don't marry peasants in the rest of Westeros, so your point is moot

No but if Sansa didn't marry a noble her children wouldn't be noble. In dornish society if women can give birth to nobles....?

EDIT: And yes they do, 5 million examples of this in the books. Poor nobles marrying all kinds of people.

Edited by Chronicler, 08 April 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

The whole point of nobility is to keep the line pure so I don't see what the point here is, they marry with other nobles all the time.

[Daena the Defiant]

Chronicler, on 08 April 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Yeah, and that's the simple part, but then what is the children of the second sons son? or whatever. In western nobility of our time those sons would be nobility as well, but not the daughters.
It's pretty obvious that if enough time passes then all of Dorne would be nobility in the end, since no-one ever stops being nobility.

That's not really true - I suppose it's swell to be the thirteenth grandson, of say, the lady of Godsgrace, but the further out you come from the ruling line, you have noble blood, but no title, no incomes and will have to just get a trade like everyone else.

Edited by Daena the Defiant, 08 April 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[Daena the Defiant]

The Imp With A Pimp Limp, on 08 April 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Okay lets say that Arianne inherits Dorne and a scenario like this occurs:
1.- She has a kid (gender doesn't matter)
2.- She has another kid, this time a girl
3.- While Arianne is alive her second kid, the girl, marries and takes her husbands surname.
4.- Arianne's married girl has kids of her own, Arianne is still alive.
5.- Arianne dies, Dorne passes to the first kid.
6.- The first kid, who currently runs Dorne dies, without ever having any kids of his/her own.
7.- Dorne passes to the second kid, the girl, who also took her husband's surname.

So my question is, would the new Princess of Dorne change her family's name to Martell? Or would she keep it and just change the name of the whole Martell dynasty to her husband's name ? Or would she just keep her name and change her kid's names to Martell ? Or she and her kids would keep their names and only when she has grandkids would they take the Martell surname ?

Whomever assumes the Princedom would swap her name back to Martell. Problem solved.

[Chronicler]

Daena the Defiant, on 08 April 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

That's not really true - I suppose it's swell to be the thirteenth grandson, of say, the lady of Godsgrace, but the further out you come from the ruling line, you have no noble blood, but no title, no incomes and will have to just get a trade like everyone else.

Well, it's based on western patrilineal systems. And with those you never stop being noble if you are descended in a straight line (EDIT: being male). Point is, you are still noble. No matter if you have title, income etc.

And so it seems to be in Westeros as well, just look at Podrick etc.

Edited by Chronicler, 08 April 2012 - 08:33 PM.

[Chronicler]

Daena the Defiant, on 08 April 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Whomever assumes the Princedom would swap her name back to Martell. Problem solved.

Not really, but sure, let's tell ourselves that =P.

[Daena the Defiant]

Chronicler, on 08 April 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Not really, but sure, let's tell ourselves that =P.

Well, we've seen examples of it elsewhere, so... (the obvious one being the decision to change the name of the son of Lady Berena Tallhart nee Hornwood to House Hornwood so he could claim Hornwood Castle from his uncle, Ser Halys Hornwood)

Edited by Daena the Defiant, 08 April 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Daena the Defiant]

Chronicler, on 08 April 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Well, it's based on western patrilineal systems. And with those you never stop being noble if you are descended in a straight line (EDIT: being male). Point is, you are still noble. No matter if you have title, income etc.

And so it seems to be in Westeros as well, just look at Podrick etc.

The Gulltown Arryns are still noble... but are forced to take up trade. At some point, having noble descent is just meaningless if you are so far removed from the clusters of power as to be excluded from the noble class.

[IronSuitor]

Chronicler, on 08 April 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Yeah, and that's the simple part, but then what is the children of the second sons son? or whatever. In western nobility of our time those sons would be nobility as well, but not the daughters.
It's pretty obvious that if enough time passes then all of Dorne would be nobility in the end, since no-one ever stops being nobility.

I think you're wrong, there. Nobility is quite fragile if it's not tied to the rights to a piece of land. Among the lower houses I don't think it would be uncommon for the children of a second son to end up as something little better than hedge-knights. If their landed family can't support them and they can't get a squire-ship for their children, they would functionally drop into the small-folk.  

Luckily Westeros, like Medieval Europe, has ways to get rid of seconds sons and keep them from fathering legitimate children. The Citadel, the Night's Watch, and potentially the faith are probably mostly utilized by small houses who can't afford to support extended family.

Quote

Well, it's based on western patrilineal systems. And with those you never stop being noble if you are descended in a straight line. Point is, you are still noble. No matter if you have title, income etc.

But you aren't noble in any meaningful way. Western nobility was based upon land ownership and knighthood. If you can't afford a sword or a horse and the family you claim to be descended from would laugh you out of their castle, in what way are you noble?

[Daena the Defiant]

double post

Edited by Daena the Defiant, 08 April 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[Chronicler]

Daena the Defiant, on 08 April 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well, we've seen examples of it elsewhere, so... (the obvious one being the decision to change the name of the son of Lady Berena Tallhart nee Hornwood to House Hornwood so he could claim Hornwood Castle from his uncle, Ser Halys Hornwood)

Yeah, but this is cheating?