105 replies to this topic

[Lizaveta Martell]

Inara, on 10 April 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I think it's best to ignore Chronicler's posts. He's either trolling or can't be bothered to read the posts. Here is something that puzzled me in the AFFC. We know that heirs marrying heirs is a bad idea and usually discouraged. But Arianne mentions that she was invited to Riverrun to meet Edmure and that she tried to sneak away to Highgarden to meet Willas, both of whom are heirs to their respective houses. She also mentions that she tried to seduce Renly (I can't recall if it was for fun or because she considered him a marriage prospect), Renly is lord of the Stormlands (as opposed to Tommen). Obviously nothing ever came of it, but it just seemed weird that Arianne would consider them viable candidates, given that she wanted to rule Dorne (as opposed to being the wife of a ruling lord of another house). She also muses that the Darkstar could make a worthy consort and was highborn enough to be so (though did she mean as husband or as paramour? Because as a member of a cadet branch, isn't that lower born than from the main branch?).

I think the outcome of a marriage of Edmure(or the others) and Arienne would only be problematic if their first child is a boy.  If they have a girl then a boy, the girl becomes heir to Dorne and the boy to the Riverlands.  Of course, there is no way to guarantee that this happens.  Since marriages are essentially inheritance contracts, one might contract around these problems before the marriage. But I would agree that it's an unlikely scenario.

[Apple Martini]

Lizaveta Martell, on 11 April 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

I think the outcome of a marriage of Edmure(or the others) and Arienne would only be problematic if their first child is a boy.  If they have a girl then a boy, the girl becomes heir to Dorne and the boy to the Riverlands.  Of course, there is no way to guarantee that this happens.  Since marriages are essentially inheritance contracts, one might contract around these problems before the marriage. But I would agree that it's an unlikely scenario.

The scenario you mentioned is the one I would think makes the most sense, even if they have only two boys or only two girls. I imagine that the inheritance issues would be hashed out in the prenup. "Firstborn, if it's a girl, inherits Dorne. Secondborn child and first son gets Riverrun." Or, "Firstborn, if it's a son, inherits Riverrun. Secondborn inherits Dorne."

Something like that. The child who inherited Dorne would take the Martell name.

And I also agree that having two heirs marry each other among the paramount houses is probably very unlikely. For one thing, most girls in those houses have at least one brother. For another, as we've noted, the political implications would be pretty dicey. Even if you look at Rickard Stark's grand southern strategy and the eventual four-house alliance between Stark, Arryn, Tully and Baratheon, none of those marriages or arranged marriages paired one heir to another.

Edited by Apple Martini, 11 April 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[TheSpottedCat]

Ok, call me stupid, but I thought that the Dornish law of inheritance was only for the Princes of Dorne. Kind of like how laws in Sweden and Denmark now say that the first child of the monarch regardless of sex inherits the crown. That's why I never thought twice about inheritance problems with other nobles in Dorne. If  the law concerns only Princes, then there would be no such problem, right?

[Apple Martini]

TheSpottedCat, on 11 April 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Ok, call me stupid, but I thought that the Dornish law of inheritance was only for the Princes of Dorne. Kind of like how laws in Sweden and Denmark now say that the first child of the monarch regardless of sex inherits the crown. That's why I never thought twice about inheritance problems with other nobles in Dorne. If  the law concerns only Princes, then there would be no such problem, right?

I want to say that it's the whole region, yeah. They refer to women inheriting if they're firstborn as Dornish law, not Martell law. It could also apply to whom they recognize on the Iron Throne (i.e. Myrcella before Tommen); Myrcella isn't a Dornish princess. The gender equality stems from Nymeria marrying the Martell prince at the time and forming an equal union.

[Not A Lannister]

Chronicler, on 10 April 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

No you haven't? And logically everyone would be named Martell in the end if women also get to pass on their house name etc. And this isn't a matrilineal system it's a patri and matrilineal system.

Ramsay Gimp: No I said the children of daughters of nobles aren't noble (unless their fathers are)

If the HEIR is female, she is the only female in that generation of children who passes on her name. Not her younger sisters, just her. How hard is that to understand.

[Chronicler]

Trish, on 11 April 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

If the HEIR is female, she is the only female in that generation of children who passes on her name. Not her younger sisters, just her. How hard is that to understand.

It's not hard to understand, but it's not actually the case, since someone in this thread just made it up. I was actually looking for suggestions from the book (or Martin) on how it actually works.