176 replies to this topic

[Envie]

A lot of people in the initial thoughts thread, like me, thought the scene with Ros and Littlefinger was unnecessary and wasted time in the episode that could have gone to other more worthy story lines.

Apparently the producers felt it was necessary to better flesh out just how 'sinister' Peter can be based on their interview here:

Inside the Episode:  http://www.youtube.c...ture=plpp_video

After watching this narrative of several of the scenes, I better understand the reasoning for the crying Ros scene, but I'm not entirely convinced it was still that necessary. Everyone by now knows how despicable Littlefinger is and how dangerous he can be. Those who haven't read the books undoubtedly believe him to be fairly slimy and immoral even if they don't know yet what's to come with Sansa and the Eyrie, etc.

Perhaps the producers are wrangling with how to chisel down all the political info that was in book 2 and make it easier to digest for television viewers. Dumbing it down would require a lot more exposition and scene manipulating I suppose. Maybe since they added that scene last week with Cersei's play on Littlefinger (which made him look weak), they felt it necessary to add a scene this week to show just how powerful he is, if only behind the scenes in secret.

Yes, as D&D stated, at the base of Littlefinger's suave well groomed appearance and carefully controlled speech is a pimp. He's still just a pimp trying to turn a buck at the expense of human lives.

[Tyrion-kratS]

complete waste of time. little finger's despicable nature will be borne out by his despicable (is he really that bad?) deeds.

I guess most of us are coming from a position of having read the books, and we know that Ros isn't a real character, and so we struggle to figure out why she would be in the show at all, thats certainly my feelings. I think the only reason she is there is so that we have a plausible route into a (any) brothel, which will become more important later on.

but as a reader, I dont like it, not when we could be at the wall or on the kings road.

[Arrogant Bastard]

I pretty much agree with you, despite thinking it was a pretty good scene. Littlefinger's already been established as a shit weasel, so the scene wasn't really necessary and I feel like the time could have been better utilized with Theon and Yara, whose horse ride was cut pretty short. Still, it wasn't a bad scene and it was miles better than the Littlefinger Ros scene last season, so it really didn't bother me that much. I enjoyed it more than the Theon Captain's daughter scene, which really should have been cut despite being in the book.

[Dr. Pepper]

I've been a supporter of Ros' inclusion on the show.  Last season her character gave viewers intimate knowledge of certain characters in the easiest and visually pleasing way possible.  Book readers know Theon confusion with his identity leads him down horrible paths and book readers know that Littlefinger is a manipulative, slimy pimp but viewers don't know this.  Hence the need for a Ros.

However, I find myself baffled by her inclusions in this season thus far.  At first I thought she'd take the place of Chataya or Alayaya but since Tyrion brought Shae to the Tower of the Hand, there's no need for Chataya's brothel or tunnel.  The only other thing we got from Chataya and her tunnels is the knowledge that Tywin created them but we got that same sort of information in this episode from Varys when he casually mentioned that Tyrion found Shae in Tywin's 'kitchens'. Then when Ros was instructing the whore, I thought maybe she would be the one to instruct a fake Arya (should they include that storyline) since she's the only person in King's Landing that knows Winterfell apart from Sansa.

The crying scene left me even more confused about her purpose.  We have already been shown that Littlefinger is slimy, manipulative, sneaky, and not afraid to hurt people.  Last season we saw him betray Ned and Catelyn, we saw him make Sansa uncomfortable, we saw him threaten violence to Ned, we saw him treat his whores like slaves and objects, we saw him basically start a war with false information, we saw him get one over on Varys.  We learned very well that Littlefinger is all about Littlefinger and he will get his way without any consideration of honor.  Why do we need to have it beaten into our heads again?  We didn't learn anything new about Littlefinger (unless the man he was talking about was Qyburn).

I liked the scene but I grow weary of seeing Littlefinger and Ros so much.  It seems as if he's had more scenes than any other character on the show.  I want to learn something new about other show characters or spend more time on some of the main characters.

[Greywolf2375]

Tyrion-kratS, on 09 April 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

but as a reader, I dont like it, not when we could be at the wall or on the kings road.

or using any of a multitude of characters from the books instead of inventing one to shoe horn in.

[atia-]

I think Ros is a very annoying and uncreative plot device to flesh out Littlefinger, and pretty much the only one we have.  It seems like lazy writing to me.  Like someone else said (well, similar) in another thread, TV LF looks just more like a creepy douchebag than book LF, who is a big time game-playing creep.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It was very creepy. I don't think it was redundant like some other posters. Yes, the show has established that Baelish is slick and an amoral opportunist, but this scene made him seem truly evil for the first time in the series. He was actually scary, which may be different than the books but it is leagues better than making him stupid like last episode

[Envie]

Dr. Pepper, on 09 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

The crying scene left me even more confused about her purpose.  We have already been shown that Littlefinger is slimy, manipulative, sneaky, and not afraid to hurt people.  Last season we saw him betray Ned and Catelyn, we saw him make Sansa uncomfortable, we saw him threaten violence to Ned, we saw him treat his whores like slaves and objects, we saw him basically start a war with false information, we saw him get one over on Varys.  We learned very well that Littlefinger is all about Littlefinger and he will get his way without any consideration of honor.  Why do we need to have it beaten into our heads again?  We didn't learn anything new about Littlefinger (unless the man he was talking about was Qyburn).

Yes, exactly - all that has been established well enough from season one. Why exactly did the producers feel the need to establish, yet again this season just how 'dangerous' Littlefinger is in the game? They seem to be bashing viewers over the head with it. Come on guys, your viewers are not idiots. Even if they haven't read the books, they get it by now!

Honestly, I always felt Varys was a far more dangerous and creepy character from the books, but he's almost likable in many of his scenes on the show. It's almost as if they're trying to have the two outdo each other more than they already did with their throne room verbal sparring matches.

I too was a supporter of Ros's usefulness as a storytelling tool in the first season. Through her whore scenes we learn quite a bit that couldn't be explained on screen from the books about Theon (and the Starks), Tyrion, Littlefinger and Pycelle. All were useful scenes.

This season? Not so much. Ros isn't important and didn't even exist, why do they persist on giving her these entirely too long exaggerated scenes?

[Lord Varys]

The scene does not make sense. It's useless and pointless, and it actually distorts Littlefinger's character. The man might be cruel, but I'm not sure he'd treat his trusted confidants/lieutenants this way (and Ros is, after all, now the overseer of this brothel). Littlefinger is more dependent than anyone else besides Varys and Illyrio on people he can fully trust. Among them would be Lothor Brune and Oswell Kettleblack. Ros should be somewhat on that level by now.

As the series portrays him, Littlefinger seems to be pimp first, Minister of Finance second, but that's not the case. Brothels are an investment to Littlefinger, not individual whores. He would not care about, nor oversee his brothels personally. He would not spend that much time there because he has to run a ministry, and plot the downfall of other people.

People of note don't want to be acquainted to a pimp. The way they portray it, I don't see Littlefinger's talent of 'befriending powerful men, and women'.

Lastly, I don't think that our Petyr is that cruel/sinister in day-to-day private life. He does not appear to be a nice guy. He is a nice guy who stabs you in the back but he does it still with a funny line and a smile. But even if he were, he would hire some pimp to keep his girls in line. He would not dirty his hands personally to threaten the likes of Ros.

They do the right thing with Varys, so why must Littlefinger be this stupid pimp?

[Morrigan]

Useless filler, and a distortion of Littlefinger. Yeah, we already know he's greedy and cruel, but this was just mustache-twirling stupidity. D&D have made Littlefinger and Ros their pet fanfiction (see: http://tvtropes.org/...Main/TheScrappy and http://tvtropes.org/...ain/CreatorsPet) and it needs to die and it needs to die. Fast.

Edited by Morrigan, 09 April 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[The Bastard of Bolton]

Petyr had mentioned that he catered to all manner of perversions last season, with Ros he hinted at one of those perversions are.  Might be the whore he spoke of was sold to a certain Northern bastard...

[Sci-2]

I liked the scene. We see more of the anger and narcissism of LFinger that is kept from us, so far, in the books.

But then I like Ros as a character overall and am curious to see how she'll fit into the altered story.

[Tadco26]

I thought this scene was the most likely made up scene that fits the book Littlefinger.  I think the scene was actually pretty well done, and I have hated Ros' other scenes.  That being said I agree that there is so much content that has to be cut short that this screen time could have been spent else where.  I suspect they have to give Aiden x number of scenes to keep him as an actor, and at least this one seemed to fit the book Littlefinger when most have not.  I always compare the book version to Ben Linus on Lost who initially comes across as non-threatening, or Verbal Kint in the Usual Suspects who we only find out much later is Keyser Söze.  I think much of the revelations of what he tells Sansa at the end of Storm of Swords and beyond will be reduced with all these blatant "insights".  The thing is Littlefinger is not a point of view character so don't really need all these extra insights to give exactly the same amount of info as book readers have and all the created background removes the mystery that makes him more interesting in the future.

[Catastrophe]

I agree with Lord Varys, this was a pointless scene. Littlefinger started a war that will result in tens of thousands of deaths, solely for the sake of power. On a more personal level, he's the one who betrayed Ned Stark and got him killed. It should be already pretty obvious that he's evil, we don't need to see him threatening a whore to hammer that point home.

I also thought this incident was very out of character for him. He's not a Saturday morning cartoon villain. He's supposed to be affably evil, that's how he gets people to trust him. He'll kill people when it suits his purposes or advances his plans, but he's not cruel for the sake of being cruel. He's also not supposed to be a pimp in the books, he owns brothels but I never got the impression that he ran them himself. Threatening Ros just seems so beneath him.

Also, his story about the Lysene pleasure girl doesn't make sense to me. I know that most whores in Westeros are treated horribly, but they're still not slaves! It's a major plot point that slavery is illegal in Westeros, the idea of whores being bought and sold like chattel doesn't fit.

[Catastrophe]

Oh, and while it's not really a big deal, I thought the scene where Littlefinger wipes some "fluids" off the whore's mouth was disgusting. I hate to sound like a prude, but I do NOT want to see that level of sexual content on Game of Thrones. HBO went too far with that one.

[atia-]

Catastrophe, on 09 April 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I agree with Lord Varys, this was a pointless scene. Littlefinger started a war that will result in tens of thousands of deaths, solely for the sake of power. On a more personal level, he's the one who betrayed Ned Stark and got him killed. It should be already pretty obvious that he's evil, we don't need to see him threatening a whore to hammer that point home.

I also thought this incident was very out of character for him. He's not a Saturday morning cartoon villain. He's supposed to be affably evil, that's how he gets people to trust him. He'll kill people when it suits his purposes or advances his plans, but he's not cruel for the sake of being cruel. He's also not supposed to be a pimp in the books, he owns brothels but I never got the impression that he ran them himself. Threatening Ros just seems so beneath him.

I totally agree with this.  One of the first things that popped into my head when I saw this scene was, "Does LF really deal with such trivial matter such as this?  And since when does he act so cartoonish evil towards people?"  I just tried to shrug it off as Ros being some super important whore manager of one of his richest brothels, but it really just wasn't a very good LF scene...again....

Edited by dannister, 09 April 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[Catastrophe]

That's actually another plot hole: If Ros is now the manager of Littlefinger's most upscale brothel, why is she still servicing clients herself? I've never heard of a "madame" who worked as a whore in her own establishment, it's ridiculous. Then again, I always thought Ros was an extremely superfluous character, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

I think a big part of the problem with Littlefinger's scenes this season is that he didn't actually do a lot in the second book. It wasn't until the third book that we really got to see the extent of his political maneuvering, but since the TV show writers don't want to ignore a major character for two full years, they keep adding in stuff for him to do that just doesn't quite fit.

Edited by Catastrophe, 09 April 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[atia-]

Catastrophe, on 09 April 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

That's actually another plot hole: If Ros is now the manager of Littlefinger's most upscale brothel, why is she still servicing clients herself? I've never heard of a "madame" who worked as a whore in her own establishment, it's ridiculous.

Yeah, you're right.  She wouldn't be doing both.  And I just can't imagine LF spending his days in his brothels scaring the whores, lol.  For one thing, too trivial for him, and another - if he DID spend his days doing that (micro-managing his brothels), he would probably actually be nice or something - try to genuinely cheer her up.

[mrkorb]

I found myself wondering what the point of this scene was after I watched it.  On the surface of things, it felt like an unnecessary followup to the bastard slaughter montage from the previous episode.  Then I paid a little more attention to the things Baelish said.

Quote

A very wealthy patron, he offered me a tremendous amount of money to let him transform this lovely, sad girl.  To use her in ways that
never occur to most men.  And you know what occurs to most men.

Who do we know that has a lot of money?  What rather mysterious beautiful and smart girl was rather recently discovered in the war camp of somebody who has a lot of money?  I think this mystery whore that he was talking about is Shae, and she was bought by Tywin Lannister.  Let's not forget where Shae ends up.

As for transforming her, we know Varys has his informers, and Baelish has his informers, and Cersei has hers, so why not Tywin?  His instruction to Tyrion that he not bring her to court, he has to know that Tyrion will rebel at that.  So now Shae is Tywin's person on the inside, maybe not as inside as he would like, but at the very least she's there when he isn't and might have a way to send him information on what Tyrion is up to.

That, or HBO wanted a scene with some gratuitous jizz wiping.  Just a theory I came up with for what otherwise seemed to be a throwaway inserted scene with no basis in the books.

[congokong]

Everything with Ros is a waste of time. We know Petyr is evil. Was putting a dagger to Ned's throat not enough to convince the audience? They're forcing more screen time on Petyr than he deserves this season.