176 replies to this topic

[Lord Varys]

Well, Littlefinger does not want to exploit Sansa in a sexual way. He does not intend to make her whore. He wants her to love him. The man is no pimp at heart, and he wants to seduce Sansa, not to rape her. Further, the whole 'Knowledge is power' is not Littlefinger's motto. Using this line with Littlefinger was the greatest mistake in last weeks scene with Cersei. Implying that he knows about the incest, and being somewhat reluctant to do the dirty work for Cersei, was insofar in character as Littlefinger saved Cersei's and Joffrey's ass during the whole Ned-crisis and might thus actually believe the guys in charge of KL should be thankful for that. But he would never try to blackmail them.

Littlefinger's motto is 'money is power'. Littlefinger does not threaten or blackmail people (just as Varys does not), he buys their allegiance, or he befriends them. That's how he works, and that's why he is so successful. Nobody considers him a real threat. He operates under everybody radar (excluding Varys, and now Tyrion). But as soon as somebody considers him a real threat he is lost. Littlefinger would never even use a line like 'It's hard for them to simper and bow without heads' during a private conversation with Varys. He would never admit to anyone what his true feelings are.

TV-Littlefinger is just a pimp who - for some occult reason - hangs out with the guys on the Small Council. Not sure why any of them should respect/interact/befriend a pimp. I'd not.

[Milcov]

It just doesn't make sense. I'd rather have more LF/Varys scenes than LF/Ros scenes, that shows what he's actually up to better. He owns brothels to make money, they aren't his whole life however.

[birdsong66]

For people who have read the book, this scene was completely pointless and frustrating because we would prefer not to waste valuable screen time beating the dead horse that LF is a sociopathic monster.

For viewers who have not ventured to read the series, this scene served to flesh out LF by way of Roz.

Both situations have merit, but for me, I would prefer less Roz altogether.  Completely superfluous inclusion where other characters already established would have served without need of suspension of disbelief on my part.  And, in a purely superficial sense, the actress is a bad crier---just couldn't buy it.  At.  All.

I do not share D&D's love for the character, or the actress.  In effect, I couldn't care less what happens to her.

YMMV, of course.

[brashcandy]

Lord Varys, on 10 April 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Well, Littlefinger does not want to exploit Sansa in a sexual way. He does not intend to make her whore. He wants her to love him. The man is no pimp at heart, and he wants to seduce Sansa, not to rape her.

Huh? So because he chooses to play mind games, deceive and manipulate her it means that he's more honourable than your ordinary rapist? Sansa even compares him to Marillion in ASOS. What LF is doing to Sansa is the very definition of sexual exploitation. He has her under his control and is using that power to make her kiss him, sit on his lap, and god knows what else will be coming in TWOW. He is a pimp at heart. That's how he makes a lot of money and that's how he sees women - as objects to be used for his selfish desires.

Quote

TV-Littlefinger is just a pimp who - for some occult reason - hangs out with the guys on the Small Council. Not sure why any of them should respect/interact/befriend a pimp. I'd not.

I think the TV show will go on to do a good job of depicting LF's subtleties and the many layers to his character, but I can't fault them for wanting to show the kind of sinister person he can be via his interaction with women who have no power to fight back. It's absolutely crucial to understanding why he's so dangerous to Sansa later on. He's not simply a smart game player, he's a ruthless pimp.

Edited by brashcandy, 10 April 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Lord Varys]

Well, my definition of pimp states that this is a guy who exploits whores and takes away the money they earn for his own benefit. Littlefinger does not command Sansa to have sex with other women. Thus he is not a pimp in his relationship with her. He may want to take her into his own bed eventually, but I very much doubt he intends to make her a prostitute.

Littlefinger's attraction to/obsession with Sansa has nothing to do with exploiting her in a sexual way (i.e. making her a whore). The man is no pedophile, he is not attracted to little girls. Sansa is (more beautiful) version of Catelyn to him. By making her his own, his daughter-wife, he will get the very thing he always wanted back when he was the youth who challenged Brandon Stark to single combat.

And Littlefinger does not make most of his money through brothels/whores. They are part of his investment policy, but the only thing that attracts him to whores is the fact that 'they seldom sink, and if they are boarded by pirates, they pay coin like everybody else'. But Littlefinger does own ships as well, he is an investor at heart, a speculator, a thief. They should show ruining merchants, selling offices, stealing lands from impoverished lords and such, not spying on the patrons of his brothel or threatening insignificant whores.

People who believe this is Littlefinger's character most likely also believe he personally whipped Jeyne Poole during her 'training'... This is ridiculous.

[brashcandy]

Lord Varys, on 10 April 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Well, my definition of pimp states that this is a guy who exploits whores and takes away the money they earn for his own benefit. Littlefinger does not command Sansa to have sex with other women. Thus he is not a pimp in his relationship with her. He may want to take her into his own bed eventually, but I very much doubt he intends to make her a prostitute.

Littlefinger's attraction to/obsession with Sansa has nothing to do with exploiting her in a sexual way (i.e. making her a whore). The man is no pedophile, he is not attracted to little girls. Sansa is (more beautiful) version of Catelyn to him. By making her his own, his daughter-wife, he will get the very thing he always wanted back when he was the youth who challenged Brandon Stark to single combat.

And Littlefinger does not make most of his money through brothels/whores. They are part of his investment policy, but the only thing that attracts him to whores is the fact that 'they seldom sink, and if they are boarded by pirates, they pay coin like everybody else'. But Littlefinger does own ships as well, he is an investor at heart, a speculator, a thief. They should show ruining merchants, selling offices, stealing lands from impoverished lords and such, not spying on the patrons of his brothel or threatening insignificant whores.

People who believe this is Littlefinger's character most likely also believe he personally whipped Jeyne Poole during her 'training'... This is ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure that you're being serious in this response. Sexual exploitation does not equate to making someone a whore. It means that you're using your power over someone to coerce them into giving sexual or otherwise "intimate" favours. The victim is unable to resist doing so because they fear the consequences of showing their displeasure. Littlefinger didn't need to whip Jeyne personally in order to be held responsible for what happened to the girl. And do you not see how  sick and perverted it is that he is trying to turn Sansa into this "daughter-wife " as you put it? As for not being attracted to little girls, here is what Sansa notes in AGOT:

Quote

Sansa seated herself beside the queen. Cersei smiled again, but that did not make her feel any less anxious. Varys was wringing his soft hands together, Grand Master Pycelle kept his sleepy eyes on the papers in front of him, but she could feel Littlefinger staring. Something about the way the smalll man looked at her made Sansa feel as though she had no clothes on. Goosebumps pimpled her skin.

Edited by brashcandy, 10 April 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Lord Varys]

We are not discussing sexual exploitation here, we are discussing Littlefinger. He is not a pimp in the books in the sense that he personally oversees, trains, and punishes prostitutes in his employ (or prostitutes working in brothels he owns). Of course he is taking advantage of Sansa and stuff, but she is a special case. As I see the character, this is not habit, meaning that Littlefinger does not treat all women in the same way as he treats Sansa...

[Lord Hodor]

I think that scene was a way to both show LF`s dispicableness and try and establish Qyburn`s existance.

I`ve read on this forum before that Vargo Hoat is not making an appearence on the show, and without The Goat where would Qyburn come from?

Without Qyburn there`d be no walk of shame, no Osney Kettleblack torture and double confession, etc et al.

LF just gave us the answer on the last episode. He`s his buddy! Which doubles down as making LF the worse human being ever.

[Milcov]

Wait, no Vargo Hoat? So what'll happen with Jaime's hand, surely they can't leave it on.

[Lord Hodor]

I`m not stating as fact, just repeating what I once read on this very forum. I`m sure they can arrange for his lost hand during his escape without The Goat.

Having said that, I do wish that Vargo shows and they keep things closer to the book, not holding my breath however.

[brashcandy]

Lord Varys, on 10 April 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

We are not discussing sexual exploitation here, we are discussing Littlefinger. He is not a pimp in the books in the sense that he personally oversees, trains, and punishes prostitutes in his employ (or prostitutes working in brothels he owns). Of course he is taking advantage of Sansa and stuff, but she is a special case. As I see the character, this is not habit, meaning that Littlefinger does not treat all women in the same way as he treats Sansa...

Discussing sexual exploitation is part and parcel of discussing LF, that's why HBO showed it. He is a pimp in the books, and I don't know why you think that just because we saw him threatening Ros and visiting his whorehouse that it means HBO is trying to portray him as a micro-manager. Besides this, we know that punishment goes on in his brothels (via Jeyne), and the show didn't claim that LF would be personally overseeing this punishment. As he states, he gave the Lyseni whore over to someone else and didn't very much care what happened to her, but we can surmise it wasn't pleasant. His taking advantage of Sansa is not a special case. Look at how he treats Jeyne, Cat, and Lysa.

Edited by brashcandy, 10 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Woman of War]

I think the series want to give Ros much more of a personality and finally she will replace Chataya and Alayaya. And it might be her who gets whipped because she is taken for Tyrion's woman.
We are expected to feel for her and she might be built  up as contrast to Shae. Actually I like both actresses, Kekili as well as the Ros actress, and although they are not in the books the way they are or not even at all, they are not bad. But I miss Alayaya, the clever and curious prostitute who wants to learn. I would have liked more important commoner characters not only in the series but as well in the books.

[The Black Wolf]

I must say that, while I've actually enjoyed LF's scenes this season, I feel they are a bit out of character. Not as much as some here seem to think... but enough that I notice it and think there was something that wasn't quite right in the scene. I understand LF being in his brothels, I always assumed that these whores were more than a purely monetary investment, these brothels are probably a rather important source of information for him (like Doreah said: men like to talk when they are happy). What I don't understand is why he would openly threaten Ros like that if she is indeed the overseer of this brothel, just like I don't think he would ever openly have threatened Cersei like he did in the first episode. Basically all of LF's schemes are based on people seeing him as a friend or dismissing him as a threat! Oh, well, I'll wait for a few more episodes to make my final judgement... I still love Aidan Gillen as Littlefinger, though...

[Purah]

I found it totally unnecessary and whilst yes, Ros did gain some personality, I still can't help but feel that she's just some bland fan service and the creator's pet character. As for Littlefinger, well he was one step away from declaring that he does it because "its eeeeeeeeeevil", that's how Saturday-morningish it felt.
I do hope they develop Littlefinger's character without Ros, hopefully his scenes with the Tyrells will redeem this ugly, cartoonish villainy. I personally found his scenes with Varys in Season 1 really quite delightful and full of chemistry, and wish there was more of Book LF's personality on show.

Book LF was everyone's friend and no one's enemy, full of cheery smiles and clever jokes, even when setting Westeros on fire and watching it burn, all in the name of love. I just found this aspect of him downright chilling (admittedly though, I do end up channelling Johan from Naoki Urasawa's Monster whenever I read about Littlefinger, so it may be just me). The subtle sociopathy, the "friend" who put a lot of effort into earning your friendship only to stab you in the back...that, I think will prove to be so much more effective, than what D&D are writing atm.

[Envie]

Lord Varys, on 10 April 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

We are not discussing sexual exploitation here, we are discussing Littlefinger. He is not a pimp in the books in the sense that he personally oversees, trains, and punishes prostitutes in his employ (or prostitutes working in brothels he owns). Of course he is taking advantage of Sansa and stuff, but she is a special case. As I see the character, this is not habit, meaning that Littlefinger does not treat all women in the same way as he treats Sansa...

I agree with this. Littlefinger wasn't painted as a sexual predator or using sexual exploitation as part of his retinue of weapons in the game. Now granted he does start doing some creepy insinuations with his 'daughter' Alayne (Sansa) later on at the Eyrie that definitely could be taken for sexual exploitation or predatory... so maybe that's the angle they're going for this season ... evolving Baelish into some sort of creepy weasel pedophile who spies on his clients through peepholes and threatens his whores with torturous punishments. It seems very out of character from the Littlefinger we knew in the books and I really wish the producers would just take lead from Martin, who wrote his characters so perfectly there's no need for them to embellish them in any way at all.

Littlefinger is NOT a pimp in the modern sense of the word. He's a businessman and a man from very low noble birth who has managed to work his way up the ladder right onto the small council because he's a master at making money and buying people's allegiances. His personality is getting more and more skewed as the series goes on. I don't really like him this creepy.

[brashcandy]

Envie, on 10 April 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

I agree with this. Littlefinger wasn't painted as a sexual predator or using sexual exploitation as part of his retinue of weapons in the game. Now granted he does start doing some creepy insinuations with his 'daughter' Alayne (Sansa) later on at the Eyrie that definitely could be taken for sexual exploitation or predatory... so maybe that's the angle they're going for this season ... evolving Baelish into some sort of creepy weasel pedophile who spies on his clients through peepholes and threatens his whores with torturous punishments. It seems very out of character from the Littlefinger we knew in the books and I really wish the producers would just take lead from Martin, who wrote his characters so perfectly there's no need for them to embellish them in any way at all.

Littlefinger is NOT a pimp in the modern sense of the word. He's a businessman and a man from very low noble birth who has managed to work his way up the ladder right onto the small council because he's a master at making money and buying people's allegiances. His personality is getting more and more skewed as the series goes on. I don't really like him this creepy.

Well, I'm convinced we must be reading two different books. Littlefinger has always been creepy. What would you call looking at Sansa as though she has no clothes on? Or wanting to get married to her when her father died, or treating her as a Cat-replacement object? You may not know it, but modern day pimps consider themselves businessmen too. Sexual exploitation and manipulation are the very means by which LF got into the game. Sleeping with Lysa Tully, making her believe he loved her so that she would get her husband to employ him etc etc. I'm not saying the man doesn't have brains, but he's based his whole move from lowborn foster child to small council member on the backs of women. Threatening Cersei was uncharacteristic, I agree, simply because book LF would be smarter to threaten a Lannister still in power. But book LF would absolutely threaten a low class prostitute with no power. Why is this so hard to fathom?

Edited by brashcandy, 10 April 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

lacuna, on 10 April 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

IDK... Felt out of character for me. Sure, LF is ruthless and conniving, but why make someone inside your organization a potential enemy, feeding them reasons to hate your guts, when you can make a "friend", all at the cost of a simple lie and a false show of compassion? He gave her the day off anyway.

Governing through fear should be Cersei's domain.

Do you really think that a pimp cares if his whores hate him or not?  They live in a clean environment, receive regular meals, get to wear nice clothing and are not going to be beaten. If they didn't fear him, they would not be manageable and Littlefinger, is smart enough to know that a battered and bruised whore is useless, so psychological abuse in the smartest way to go, because no one can see the damage.  He gave her the day off simply because she was not going to make him any money that day.  It's about controlling his product and making a profit, nothing more and nothing less.  These women/girls are disposable and easily replaced.  If they didn't know that upon arrival, they will learn very quickly what the rules are.   No one would care if a whore wound up dead.  Most would say that she deserved it, simply because she was a whore.  Pimps know this.  I liked the scene being that it shows Littlefingers true colors.  He's not the soft spoken smiling nice guy that he puts on to the rest of the world.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

brashcandy, on 10 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

Huh? So because he chooses to play mind games, deceive and manipulate her it means that he's more honourable than your ordinary rapist? Sansa even compares him to Marillion in ASOS. What LF is doing to Sansa is the very definition of sexual exploitation. He has her under his control and is using that power to make her kiss him, sit on his lap, and god knows what else will be coming in TWOW. He is a pimp at heart. That's how he makes a lot of money and that's how he sees women - as objects to be used for his selfish desires.




I think the TV show will go on to do a good job of depicting LF's subtleties and the many layers to his character, but I can't fault them for wanting to show the kind of sinister person he can be via his interaction with women who have no power to fight back. It's absolutely crucial to understanding why he's so dangerous to Sansa later on. He's not simply a smart game player, he's a ruthless pimp.

Also, they only have 10, 53 to 56 minute episodes to explain this to the audience, because most viewers have not read the books.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Lord Varys, on 10 April 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

We are not discussing sexual exploitation here, we are discussing Littlefinger. He is not a pimp in the books in the sense that he personally oversees, trains, and punishes prostitutes in his employ (or prostitutes working in brothels he owns). Of course he is taking advantage of Sansa and stuff, but she is a special case. As I see the character, this is not habit, meaning that Littlefinger does not treat all women in the same way as he treats Sansa...

Littlefinger = sexual exploitation. He is a pimp in the books, but no one cares because brothels/whorehouses are acceptable businesses in Westeros. He held meetings with Catelyn and Ned inside one of his brothels. Because he was able to make money for other high lords and was backed by John Arryn, is the only reason that he sits on the high council. Without those connections he would still only be Littlefinger the brothel owner.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 10 April 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Envie, on 10 April 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

I agree with this. Littlefinger wasn't painted as a sexual predator or using sexual exploitation as part of his retinue of weapons in the game. Now granted he does start doing some creepy insinuations with his 'daughter' Alayne (Sansa) later on at the Eyrie that definitely could be taken for sexual exploitation or predatory... so maybe that's the angle they're going for this season ... evolving Baelish into some sort of creepy weasel pedophile who spies on his clients through peepholes and threatens his whores with torturous punishments. It seems very out of character from the Littlefinger we knew in the books and I really wish the producers would just take lead from Martin, who wrote his characters so perfectly there's no need for them to embellish them in any way at all.

Littlefinger is NOT a pimp in the modern sense of the word. He's a businessman and a man from very low noble birth who has managed to work his way up the ladder right onto the small council because he's a master at making money and buying people's allegiances. His personality is getting more and more skewed as the series goes on. I don't really like him this creepy.

He is a sexual predators if you cannot see that by his dealings with Sansa...

If you have HBO, surely you didn't miss HBO's Cathouse? Which is about a pimp/Dennis Hof, a businessman born to an average working class family who owns The Moonlite Bunny Ranch and is known as Pimp Master General. Littlefinger IS a pimp by modern definition.