415 replies to this topic

[Maroucia]

Queen of Spades, on 30 April 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Well, I'm not so sure of that.
The Elder Brother says something like : "I know about this man, Sandor Clegane. [stuff about his hate, his brother and so on.] He never loved and was never loved".

So I see three possible explanations :

• The Elder Brother purposefully lied to Brienne (but why ?)
  
• The Elder Brother did not know because Sandor purposefully omitted to mention his feelings for Sansa...which would be weird, since he seems to have spilled everything else.
  
• The Elder Brother did not know because Sandor himself did not (want to ?) realize his true feelings for the Little Bird.

Whenever those two meet again, I feel it's going to be a bit awkward...

The Elder Brother did know about Sansa though, which indicates that Sandor has spoken to him about her.

Given that the EB seems to be very theatrical in his way of speaking (I mean, his whole speech about Sandor was over the top, emotive and tragic) I’m inclined to think that he exaggerated a few things in his story telling just for the dramatic effect…

[Rapsie]

brashcandy, on 29 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Still, Martin seems to be continuing to weave a thread that was started back in ACOK in the relationship between Sansa and Sandor, and which continues to bind them together up to this point. In the two times that Sansa thinks of the Hound in this chapter, she’s not thinking of him as a protector or savior, but rather as a man with whom she has shared very intimate experiences.

I really wish HBO would appreciate this fact.

[The Lost Lord]

AFFC Alayne II. Apparently this chapter is the longest chapter in the entire series!

On the previous page, Brash posted a great analysis of the change in Sansa's mindset toward LF. Here are passages from the text that jumped out at me to this effect:

Quote

[dealing with Sweetrobin] I wish he [LF] were here. He would know what to do."

"…since Marillion killed his mother." Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not; the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep."

[after ordering sweetsleep, keep in mind three pinches are fatal] "…what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns

…Her father said there was no shame in being afraid, only in showing your fear. “All men live with fear,” he said. Alayne was not certain she believed that. Nothing frightened Petyr Baelish."

...“Does your father plan to wed again?” “My father?” Alayne had never considered that. Somehow the notion made her squirm. She found herself remembering the look on Lysa Arryn’s face as she’d tumbled through the Moon Door.

The last one is the one negative comment about LF I noticed, showing that she is not 100% brainwashed, but as Brash said, she seems mostly there.

I also noticed two references to Sansa and nice clothing:

Quote

[she must leave all of Lysa's best gowns behind] …Down below, Alayne must dress modestly, as befit a girl of modest birth. It makes no matter, she told herself. I dared not wear the best clothes even here.

...Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled and said, “I have brought my sweet girl back a gift.”
Alayne was as pleased as she was surprised. “Is it a gown?” She had heard there were fine seamstresses in Gulltown, and she was so tired of dressing drably.

IMO, this shows there is a part of Sansa that is eager to get back to life as a highborn lady who can wear nice things. She is currently motivated by her own safety in what she perceives as a dangerous world, but she has not totally given up her old interests. To me this suggests that she won't end up with a quiet life in a village somewhere.

Some brief words on political developments in the Vale, which are entirely positive for LF. One chapter ago, there were 6 Lords Declarant (Royce, Waynwood, Belmore, Templeton, Hunter, Redfort). Now they are down to three. Belmore, who LF previously said was "corrupt and can be bought," "had lately reconciled with her father." Templeton has also been won over, as has Lady Waynwood apparently. The remaining lords are Hunter (who LF predicted "will be murdered by his brothers"), Redfort (who LF described as "old"), and Bronze Yohn. True Bronze Yohn is "the only one who matters," but going from 6 to 3 in one chapter shows that LF is moving very effectively to consolidate control. So I don't see his downfall occurring in the near future.

Quote

The fourth was on her way to the riverlands to marry some Bracken when Burned Men carried her off. That left the youngest, who wed a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods, gave him a son that she named Harrold, and perished.”

This passage has been interpreted as suggesting that Timmet son of Timmet (of the Burned Men) could be the son of Elys and Alys's fourth daughter, and therefore (if proper marriage ceremonies were conducted) be the true heir to the Vale instead of Harry. GRRM recently made a cryptic comment when he was asked if this was the case. This could be an amusing bit of trivia… or it could be something much more, if Tyrion returns with Dany's invading army and decides to follow through on his long-ago promise to give the Vale to the hill tribes (a Lannister always pays his debts…)

[Elba the Intoner]

Great write up!  So sad that this is the last chapter but glad that we are here because I have been waiting for this one for so long.  It has prob my second favorite Sansa scene after the BBB.  First of all, the symbolism of this chapter and how it relates to Sansa's character arc is blatant but I love it.  The line about Sansa Stark went up the mountain but Alayne Stone is coming down sums it up perfectly.  Sansa has had her eyes opened to reality and she is all the wiser for it and her Alayne persona exudes that.  And just as we see that happening with her persona, she is physically taking the same journey by coming down the mountain.  She is both literally and figuratively getting her head out of the clouds and becoming more grounded!

The scene where she has to take Robert over the land saddle is the epitome of her transformation and I just love this scene.  This is the scene I was referring to above as my second favorite Sansa scene:

"hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them.  All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side.  There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely.  It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa.  A ghost wolf, big as mountains."

Can't you just picture it?  Everyone was probably holding their breath as they watched Sansa and Robert cross, tense with the thought that if Robert had one of his fits he could send them both over the edge.  It leaves me breathless myself just imagining it in my head.  But what I love most about it is that this represents Sansa, not Alayne, and her inner strength and Starkiness.  Brash did mention this in her summary but it can't be emphasized enough.  It is Sansa who drummed up the courage to take little Robert over that land saddle and it gives us a glimpse of the strong leader that she can become.  Honestly, I don't get people who have supposedly read this chapter and still do not think that Sansa is destined for something great or that she has not changed since AGOT and is still a silly, daydreaming girl.  This chapter just makes it so clear.

Also, what I like about this chapter is that it gives me some hope that Sansa will finally be in a place where she can take some action and get herself out of her situation.  She will no longer be as isolated with no one to talk to (and no animals around to warg into possibly ).  The stage has been set for her to make some allies that could be critical in helping her and furthermore she now has the opportunity to make some friends.  More importantly, even though she is still having some disturbing thoughts and she does seem to be letting go of Sansa in a lot of ways, Sansa still pops up quite a bit.  Aside from her thoughts above about how the wind howling reminded her of wolves and she draws strength from that, there is also the bit about Jon Snow which I find to be incredibly touching.  "Oh, it would be so sweet to see him once again."  In fact, she goes on and on in this chapter about how she must not slip up and let out any hints about who she is, but she almost gives it away here.  When Myranda mentions the new boy commander of the NIght's Watch she blurts out Jon Snow.  Why would Alayne Stone, a bastard girl from Braavos who was being trained as a Septa know his name, hmmmm?

There's also another little Sansa moment when their mule train first starts out from Sky.  When a sudden gust of wind blows back her hood it makes her laugh and I just can't believe that's something Alayne would do.  These little moments where we see Sansa and not Alayne give me hope that she is still a Stark at heart and won't lose her identity totally, much the same as I hope that Arya, because of her wolf dreams and the fact that she kept needle, won't lose her identity either.

Sorry, I know this turned out to be quite long (obvs I am very passionate about this chapter ).  I do have one more thing I wanted to mention and this is the thoughts on what Petyr tells Alayne about being brave at the beginning of the chapter.  The sentence where she says, "Her father said there was no shame in being afraid, only in showing your fear" jumped out at me on this reread for two reasons.  First, for two seconds I didn't realize that she was talking about Petyr when she said "her father" and for two seconds I thought she was talking about Ned.  Second, since I thought it was Ned originally, when I realized she was referring to Petyr, it made me think back to the conversation Ned had with Bran about bravery way back in AGOT, when Bran goes to see Ned behead the Night's Watch deserter.  Bran thinks he looked so afraid and he asks Ned if a man can be brave when he is afraid and Ned says that is the only time a man can be brave.  I just love that interchange.  So we are given two different father figures for Sansa and their views on bravery.  The first is that it's okay to be afraid and that being afraid makes someone brave.  The second believes that it's okay to be afraid but never show it.  It does represent their different approaches to how they lived their lives.  While Petyr is constantly hiding his true self behind a facade of coolness and never showing his true feelings, Ned was never so dishonest in how he portrayed himself to others.

[brashcandy]

Great posts, LL and Elba

Elba, thanks for reminding me of that passage above when Sansa is walking out on the thin ledge with Sweetrobin.

Quote

hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains."

I think the reference to the ice underfoot (Stark) and the broken stones (Stone) are meant to symbolise how Sansa is able to negotiate the dangers around her due to the strengths she has gained from being a Stark as well as a Stone. The two identities are helping her to triumph over these challenges, and she will need both to succeed in the future, synthesising Sansa and Alayne to produce a powerful, competent woman and leader. The reference to the ghost wolf is also appropriate given that Lady is now dead. Perhaps this is meant to foreshadow Sansa becoming the ghost wolf, "big as mountains."

Edited by brashcandy, 30 April 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[Rose and Thorns]

brashcandy, on 29 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

At this point, LF is not even bother to conceal his desire for Sansa, but is still making her keep up the ridiculous charade of viewing him as a father figure. It’s a twisted, and abusive relationship that he is forcing Sansa to endure, not to mention running the risk of having someone see them and blowing Sansa’s cover. That statement above, where the “yes, father” is juxtaposed with the description of Sansa’s blushing, perfectly captures the unnatural nature of this relationship, where Sansa has to view LF as a father, but is being made to face the discomfort of his sexual desire for her. As LF goes on to outline his plans for Sansa, he places her in more compromising positions, making her sit on his lap, and putting his fingers on her lips. Earlier in this chapter, Sansa noted that LF had told her that young girls were always happier with older men and that innocence and experience make for a perfect marriage. Based on his obvious desire for Sansa, along with those little words of wisdom, I feel confident in saying that I don’t expect that Littlefinger is truly planning on marrying Sansa off to Harry the Heir. I don’t know what he has planned, or how he plans to achieve it, but I believe that the only man he plans on having Sansa marry is himself, and that he is planning on ruling in the Vale, the North and the Riverlands.

Oh, I think he'd give up the Vale in a heartbeat - and might not wait for her annulment - if the North and Riverlands were seriously in play.  But a dynastic marriage for Sansa is his current best hope of keeping power in the Vale past the demise of Sweetrobin.  Although I quite agree with a lot of previous posters that Harry wouldn't last long after providing legitimate issue.

I don't think that's how it's going to play out, though.  Littlefinger's little finger is IMO about to trip him up.   Not being able to just take her is starting to make him fray around the cracks.  There are more eyes and ears around to see when he makes a mistake.  

Ironically, Tyrion is still preserving Sansa Stark's virginity, even though he's on another continent right now.

Excellent analysis, thank you for it.

[Caro99]

The last chapter… can’t believe it’s finally here (even if it is a great one).
  Good job with the analysis and summary Brash! I really liked this: Sansa has mastered the art of manipulation when it comes to Sweetrobin, knowing just what to say and how to say it, in order to get the boy to behave, yet she realises that Sweetrobin often takes liberties with her that he would not dare to with Petyr. I think it’s a good thing that Sansa (if she is meant for a political fate) learns early on that she will always have someone who will try to oppose her and whom she would have to please. Sort of what happened to Cersei with the way some of the lords & ladies requested things of her in a way that they didn’t with Robert, like that exiled prince from the Summer Isles. I remember her complaining about him once. But this relates to Sansa cause it looks like the times when Cersei has to be all nice and patient with the sparrow High Septon. So maybe Sansa would’ve gotten on better with him..?
  And I wonder who the 3 queens are… brash mentioned dany, cersei and margaery, but where does that leave sansa? One of the producers mentioned that margaery was a sort of less damaged version of cersei, who knows pretty well how to put on the mask of being demure to fool those around her. and while it is true, in this chapter alayne seems close to be giving margaery run for her money.
  But getting back to the chapter… this is my favorite in A Feast For Crows for many little details: we get to see Sansa quite matured, we sort of see some motherly and lady of the house traits here, with her thinking of spanking SR and with running the household of the Eyrie. We get to see she wants Sandor and has finally left, I think, the Loras Tyrell infatuation behind, and we get to see what will be her plotline for the next book- or at least how it will start. and the hint that she is still very much remebering she is a Stark, like when she is crossing that dangerous bridge thing with SR and she hears the wolves, & when she remembers Jon...
  & I know that these things are not in the books, but I just wanted to mention it quickly. These last 2 episodes of the HBO show have hinted pretty well I think that there will be something between LF & Sansa in later seasons. That scene with Cat & LF, I guess it was done to show that since Cat rejected him yet again, now instead of going away and brooding about it, he will go and start planning the whole thing with Sansa instead of cat. In the books this happens way before, but I think that it was shown well the foundations for the whole LF/Sansa/Petyr/Alayne story… But I agree that I don’t expect to see Sansa marry harry the heir. I’ll like to read about how she flirts with him after the way she treated the hedge knights for more character development, but I don’t want her to marry him… though he can’t be worse than LF.
  Really good comment about Timmet of the burned men, LL!! I think it would be funny and nicely ironic if tyrion, tyring to pay back LF for all the wrongs the man did him, ends up producing the heir to the Vale, and the heir being no other than timmet. & Queen of Spades, I think that the EB probably knows about Sandor’s feelings for Sansa- maybe he understands them even better than sandor did when he first arrived at the QI. But he probably didn’t tell brienne since it was a very private issue that sandor made him swear he would keep secret, or at least he does not see the point of telling her about it since he has already told her that the Hound is dead.
  I agree with some of the previous comments that said Sansa is probably remembering the whole Sandor leaving her in KL with a little bitterness or resentment. She’s imagined the moment so many times by now, like Maroucia said, that she seems to have forgotten that she was the one who didn’t want to go with him. but I don’t mind this so much cause if she really hated him for it then she wouldn’t think about him. but she does, so it is clear they still have many issued to discuss. I can’t wait for the moment when she confronts him about the kiss and when she admits she kept his cloak… and even though it will definetly be dangerous, I can’t wait to see sansa rebelling against LF with possibly not wanting to marry harry or some other thing. & I can’t remember who wrote this, but !! “This is why I think that if these two meet up again, I don't think they'll be easily parted. Sansa really has, unconsciously perhaps, placed him in the position of the "knight" and he has done the same on his end, while both of them couldn't be more busy being cynical about knightly values, songs etc…”  
  I am still left with some questions and many speculations about what will happen to Sansa in TWoW…One thing that bothers me is that, if the circumstances demand it, Sansa will escape with SR so she can save him from LF’s grasp? Even if mya and randa help, I still am not sure what will happen with alayne and robin arryn. I guess that if the boy is indeed LF’s son, & sansa finds out, she will try and escape since if Petyr is capable of killing off his true son, why not his “real” daughter if it was a choice between him and Sansa..? After all, as I think the clever Varys said, LF loves LF... and one quick thing: i think that bastards have always been important regarding sansa. the second thing she talks about after marrying joff when we are first introduced to her is her coment about her bastard brother. so it will be nice to seeif the bastard foreshadowing was the whole alayne stone story or her having children out of wedlock.
  Overall, even though sansa does seem to have trained herself to be alayne for good now, I see it as her just biding her time for the day when she will manage to escape LF. She is sort of doing the same protective mechanism she learned to do back at KL with joff and the whole waiting for dontos to save her thing. the bad thing is we have to wait along with her for the next book to be published, and then we will finally get a clearer idea of the road her life is going to take from the hundreds of diffrent posibilites she has open for her yet

Edited by Caro99, 01 May 2012 - 10:16 PM.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Just a thought:
doesn't his exposition of his future plans show that LF is drunk from hubris (there are no news that dany set march to westeros, he doesn't account stannis or Euron, well Doran martell is understandable)

[Megara]

the Scorpion Knight, on 01 May 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Just a thought:
doesn't his exposition of his future plans show that LF is drunk from hubris (there are no news that dany set march to westeros, he doesn't account stannis or Euron, well Doran martell is understandable)

I was going to comment this as well, but instead of believing that LF is way too sure of himself to share his plans with Sansa, I think the whole Harry the Heir marriage and reclaiming Winterfell plan is just a big lie. I don't remember LF telling anyone about his true intentions before, does he really trust in Sansa so much that he can tell her his plans? Maybe Sansa will have to charm Harry and "play the part", but in the end LF will reveal his true goal and I'm sure it will be something twisted and really horrible (99.9% sure that it will be something like LF marrying Sansa Dx ).

On the other hand, if LF really trusts Sansa and he really means everything he said about Harry and Winterfell, then he's just an idiot at this point of the story xDD

[Lyanna Stark]

Megara, on 01 May 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I was going to comment this as well, but instead of believing that LF is way too sure of himself to share his plans with Sansa, I think the whole Harry the Heir marriage and reclaiming Winterfell plan is just a big lie. I don't remember LF telling anyone about his true intentions before, does he really trust in Sansa so much that he can tell her his plans? Maybe Sansa will have to charm Harry and "play the part", but in the end LF will reveal his true goal and I'm sure it will be something twisted and really horrible (99.9% sure that it will be something like LF marrying Sansa Dx ).

On the other hand, if LF really trusts Sansa and he really means everything he said about Harry and Winterfell, then he's just an idiot at this point of the story xDD

We don't actually know if LF ever plans on taking back Winterfell. It may just be something he says to placate Sansa. He *says* that it will bring her Winterfell, but he could also be lying, or having something else in mind. Logically, LF wants to get revenge on the Tullys and the Starks, but Brandon is long dead, Ned is already dead, Winterfell is sacked and from what I recall LF is the same as many southern people: they assume Winterfell is a cold place.

If we assume that LF's ultimate goal is marrying Sansa, then he'd be happy with any high rank, Harry will never actually marry her and depending on how things play out, LF may never make a power play for Winterfell. At the moment, it's convenient to have Sansa believe he wants Winterfell since it will keep her happy, and if things work out, he may even make a play for it. But what LF really wants isn't Winterfell: he wants to have a second chance at having Cat.

Caro99, on 01 May 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

& Queen of Spades, I think that the EB probably knows about Sandor’s feelings for Sansa- maybe he understands them even better than sandor did when he first arrived at the QI. But he probably didn’t tell brienne since it was a very private issue that sandor made him swear he would keep secret, or at least he does not see the point of telling her about it since he has already told her that the Hound is dead.

To be fair, we don't really get Sandor's point of view apart from his obvious shock at hearing Sansa married to Tyrion and her flight and then his final outburst at Arya. Considering the frame of mind he was in, I think it's safe to assume he was pretty full of self loathing at that point and I'm not sure he would himself classify the feelings he had for Sansa as anything like "love" since I think he's too messed up to really think that, plus he seems to be fairly clear on that she is actually too young and that it would be Wrong (which would probably only feed the self loathing some more). Maybe the EB understood which way things were heading, but he could certainly not know anything about how Sansa felt about the entire thing. If the EB was told about the BotBW as their last encounter, he probably thinks Sansa is scared to death of Sandor.***

Regarding the future, I think they both need time apart to see whatever feelings they have developed for each other mature. Although I think nobody would be as gobsmacked as Sandor if he had any idea about how he was figuring in Sansa's thoughts.



*** To be fair to Sansa regarding the mismemory of the unKiss, Cersei had plied her with an awful lot of wine, so the fact that her memory is a bit hazy and that she has embellished quite a few things was probably made easier by her inebriated state. And she would not be the first one to use as an excuse "I was drunk and it was dark!".

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 02 May 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[Elba the Intoner]

Lost Lord I didn't see your post until after I posted mine above but the idea that Timmet could be the heir to the Vale is fascinating and could very well come into play.  I have been wondering if Tyrion would ever get back to the Mountain Clans to make good on his promise to give them the Vale.  Also, Tyrion has a lot of reasons to want to take down LF, who is in the Vale now, and that is an unresolved plot point as well.  They could both factor into some future plot point with Sansa at the Vale. Of course, if Timmet is truly the son of the Arryn girl who was carried off, he would be a bastard child and not really have a claim.  Another option is that some people have noted that with Ser Shadrich now in the Vale, maybe he will recognize Sansa and try to kidnap her and take her back to King's Landing to collect a reward.  If he does, he'll have to go through the mountain paths and could run into the mountain clans.  Timmet knows what Sansa looks like and how funny would it be if Sansa gets them to help her get away from Shadrich by saying, "Guess what?  I am married to your half man."  Wow, thinking about this GRRM really does manage to throw in so many different ideas that could come together in lots of different ways but they are all connected.

Caro, your point about how Sansa has left behind her crush on Loras is spot on and what I noticed on this reread is that this is a factor in the Harry the Heir marriage scheme.  Did anyone else notice how Petyr describes Harry to Sansa?  It is very Loras like isn't it?  Charming and handsome with blond hair and dimples and he can be so beguiling.  It just really jumped out at me that Petyr is describing him in a way that would have appealed to the old Sansa and he's trying to draw her in with that.  He has no idea that she no longer wants that kind of man and in fact she is attracted to someone who is the exact opposite.  Ha!  I find it so delicious that Petyr thinks he has her so figured out but he's basing his whole plan on old information.

ETA These little things that we are picking up on are why I am loving this and other rereads.  I just did not see all these little nuances the first time around.

Edited by Elba the Intoner, 02 May 2012 - 07:48 AM.

[Caro99]

Lyanna Stark, on 01 May 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

To be fair, we don't really get Sandor's point of view apart from his obvious shock at hearing Sansa married to Tyrion and her flight and then his final outburst at Arya.Considering the frame of mind he was in, I think it's safe to assume he was pretty full of self loathing at that point and I'm not sure he would himself classify the feelings he had for Sansa as anything like "love" since I think he's too messed up to really think that, plus he seems to be fairly clear on that she is actually too young and that it would be Wrong (which would probably only feed the self loathing some more). Maybe the EB understood which way things were heading, but he could certainly not know anything about how Sansa felt about the entire thing. If the EB was told about the BotBW as their last encounter, he probably thinks Sansa is scared to death of Sandor.***

Regarding the future, I think they both need time apart to see whatever feelings they have developed for each other mature. Although I think nobody would be as gobsmacked as Sandor if he had any idea about how he was figuring in Sansa's thoughts.

*** To be fair to Sansa regarding the mismemory of the unKiss, Cersei had plied her with an awful lot of wine, so the fact that her memory is a bit hazy and that she has embellished quite a few things was probably made easier by her inebriated state. And she would not be the first one to use as an excuse "I was drunk and it was dark!".

i had forgotten that she must have been a little "dizzy" cause of the wine Cersei made her drink! LOL, and i guess the same thing happened on the night of Ned's tourney when he told her about his scars... but you're right, i don't think that back in ACoK love was what sandor felt for sansa. their relationship is way too complcated and hard to figure out, and back in KL that sort of feeling could not take place for either of them: she was yoo young and a prisoner, while he was emotionally scarred. but i agree with you that in the future given time and them havint sorted out their problems, love could happen. i guess the EB suspects that sansa is after probably sandor's little sister the only person he's come to care about... but as you said, he must have also felt sad for sandor since he does not know sansa's view of the situation.

Elba, i know- LF trying to be smart and "charm" with his description of harry!after all, sansa told him back in AGoT on the day Ned sends Dondarrion to kill Gregor that she wished Ser Loras had been sent cause he was perfect, so LF must think she still clings to this sort of looks in a man. We don't get to see sansa's reactions to LF's plans about marrying harry in order to reclaim winterfell, but i somehow don't think she will instantly fall for him (even if winterfell is at stake) just cause he is handsome and the means to an end.

Edited by Caro99, 01 May 2012 - 10:12 PM.

[Raksha the Demon]

And so we come to the last (published) Sansa chapter of ASoIaF, and it's a doozy.

Sansa is now wearing the mask of Alayne with outward enthusiasm, but it's not such a perfect fit.  She thinks to herself of having been very lonely at the Eyrie; and she has to remind herself to "be Alayne all the time, inside and out".  She thinks of Sansa's memories and experiences quite a bit.  Her thought "Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down" is "a strange thought", not one she is comfortable with, although she yearns to incorporate Alayne's "bastard brave" veneer.  Masquerading as a bastard has imbued Sansa with more strength and courage and realism than she realized she had; but I think they are her own qualities, just needing the right stimuli to flower in her.  

Alayne handles the difficult chore of getting SweetRobin out of bed and then out of the Eyrie and down the mountain quite well, despite her unease.  Her exaggeration of her own fear as a method of bolstering the courage of this very weak, sickly and child is a master-stroke - as young and neurotic as Robert is, he is still a boy, and boys want to impress pretty girls with their heroism.  And her meeting and conversation with the intriguing Myranda Royce was delightful, though I have to wonder whether Myranda will become a true friend to Sansa/Alayne or stick to her own agenda (which I think includes getting a new husband who is both prosperous and young enough to give her a child - I wouldn't be surprised if Myranda went after either Petyr or Harry-the-Heir).

But there's a sinister and downright nasty undercurrent here.

First, we see from Sansa's thoughts that she is quite willing to risk Robert Arryn's actual health to preserve the appearance of the little lord's health, for the probable sake of her "Father"'s continued hold on the Eyrie.  Where it gets confusing is the interpretation of these thoughts:  


Coleman only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same.  Petyr had said as much, and it was true.  Maester Coleman cares only for the boy, though, Father and I have larger concerns.  


Sansa/Alayne thinks these thoughts right after she orders Coleman to administer more sweetmilk to Robert, both before their leavetaking (to keep him alert but calm on the difficult journey) and at the feast (so Robert won't panic at the feast, as the maester fears, though Sansa believes it is only singing that frightens the child, not music).  Coleman has strongly implied, while not spelling out the exact dangers, that continuing to give sweetmilk to Robert will have bad effects on the boy, the more doses the worse it could be for him.  Even I would have understood, at Alayne's age, that Coleman feared the cumulative effects of the drug on Robert.  

So what does Sansa/Alayne mean when she thinks Master Coleman cares only for the boy, though, Father and I have larger concerns?  Is it that Alayne believes that they must give the young lord a little of the risky medication to preserve the myth that little Lord Arryn can at least come down the mountain on his own feet rather than be carried, sleeping, the entire way, as he was (well, sleeping and nursing) when he went up the mountain in his mother's arms?  Does she think that Master Coleman is exaggerating and that a little of the sweetmilk is necessary to preserve the dignity of Robert Arryn's rank and that it probably won't harm him?  

Unfortunately, I am not sure.  Sansa/Alayne is straddling a very definite line here.  She is not associating the use of sweetmilk to keep up Robert's appearance and lordly dignity with her own safety, Sansa/Alayne seems to think that endangering Robert's life, or at the very least using a somewhat risky medicine, is necessary to further the important political schemes of her 'father' and herself.  And that step up from colluding with Littlefinger to frame Marillion, a choice which Sansa seemed to make out of a sense of self-preservation (having to protect Littlefinger, because she had no one else to protect and help her and because she feared she could meet her aunt's fate if she did not), to risking the worsened health of an already fragile, sickly child to advance her and Littlefinger's "larger concerns", is new and ethically troubling, to say the least.

Sansa/Alayne is a young girl growing up and going through the metamorphosis of adolescence, and is now nearing the exciting, dangerous time of young womanhood in Westeros, when she will have lost the dubious protection of a child's identity, and be considered for flirtation and sex and marriage.  It is also the time, in any world, where a young girl gradually gains more responsibility and knowledge and an anticipation of adulthood.  For Sansa Stark, a girl who has been kept as a near-helpless captive by her family's destroyers for almost two years, and then whisked away into another life and another identity with a new "Father" calling the shots, the prospect of participating in her own destiny, the possibility of being able to help "Father" with plans that affect her, must be as sweet as Arbor wine - I can almost hear the thrill of power in her thought that Father and I have larger concerns.  And I can almost hear Littlefinger's voice telling her about those important concerns, kindling the girl's desire to have a say in both her own future and in the Lord Protector's matters of state - though this is my own interpretation rather than anything GRRM definitely said.  

There is also a distinct smell of Stockholm Syndrome in these thoughts.  Sansa has been in Littlefinger's control for months now; with no other influences, no true friends, to bring her information or tell her the truth.  Her only remaining family is the sickly, neurotic little cousin who adores her but who she views as a burden to shoulder (for which I really can't blame her) as well as a possible means to an end.  Littlefinger has isolated Sansa and also helped to create the situation that requires her isolation - her being wanted as an accessory to regicide.  And we know that Littlefinger has an agenda; starting with turning Sansa into his daughter, and his creature, Alayne Stone; molding her into a politically aware and active partner in his schemes, and already turning her into his accomplice in a crime (the framing of Marillion for Lysa's murder).  

But at the end of the chapter comes the most sinister and nasty development in the relationship of Littlefinger and Alayne.  It was downright creepy to see Littlefinger pawing Alayne when they are alone, kissing her on the lips and chastising her lack of response (Sansa/Alayne's blushing reluctance betrays that she still hasn't completely succumbed to his seduction, Gods be praised!).  And then he pulls her down into his lap in a disgusting parody of father/daughter tenderness while telling her his plans for her marriage to the fair young dimpled Harry and offering her the reclamation of Winterfell and dominion over the Eyrie, as "worth another kiss now".

Littlefinger tells Sansa/Alayne in that last speech, in no uncertain terms, that little Lord Robert will die.  Before that, it is somewhat heartening to me, as a fan of Sansa, that she answers (italics mine) "If Robert were to die..." when answering LF's question about why is Harry the Heir - the use of "if" can imply that Sansa had not yet made the leap from the necessity of giving the kid risky doses of sweetmilk to the notion of his actually perishing because of the excessive dosing.  But LF follows it up by saying that it is not a matter of if, but rather when, Robert will die, he's a poor sickly boy and he will die, "it is only a matter of time"; and then discussing the great scheme of marrying the miraculously free Sansa Stark to the gorgeous Young Falcon Harry and firing up the Vale-knights to go liberate Winterfell for her.  

Sansa/Alayne has got to realize after this that Littlefinger intends to make sure that Robert dies, rather than trying to do everything possible to save his stepson.  It's just too obvious not to see, unless she deceives herself to so great a degree that her personal morality will forever be suspect (and Sansa has deceived herself before).  She is no longer a child by Westerosi definition; and she is old enough to connect the fairly large and bright dots from "Father"'s large concerns benefitting from risky/frequent dosing of Robert with sweetmilk to "Father"'s assurance that Robert will die and Harry will inherit the Eyrie in time to happily marry Sansa in accordance with Littlefinger's grand design.

We never get to see Sansa's reaction to all this.  I will be quite disappointed if she does not even try to save SweetRobin in the next two books.  He may be the most annoying young lord in Westeros, a real pain to care for, but he's still a little boy and is also Sansa's cousin; and also a little boy she had promised to mother.   I wonder if Sansa's quasi-maternal care for her young cousin could foreshadow the care of another difficult child with whom she has even closer blood ties - her little, now much more wild, brother, Rickon.

Speaking of Robert Arryn, it's kind of sad, and well-written, how helpless and alone this kid is.  No one likes him (it's difficult), his stepfather is contemplating the boy's death and probably planning to facilitate it, his chosen mother and secret cousin (his only family by blood) is ordering his doctor to dose him with a dangerous substance, and he doesn't even have playmates.  He is an extremely miserable kid, but still an eight-year-old, and I think much of his unpleasant personality comes from Lysa's coddling and spoiling, and some from his physical fragility.  Having everyone around him frequently give SweetRobin his way for fear of inciting another seizure hasn't helped him much, either.  Actually, little Robert is as isolated and endangered as is Sansa.  But Littlefinger, who has control of them both for the moment, has determined that Robert will die young and Sansa will become the prize in his game, perhaps the queen on his chessboard.  

Let's hope that this queen turns on the hand that plays her and takes over his game for the better.



I will miss the chapter recaps and analyses of Sansa Stark's journey so far.  Brashcandy and Rapsie have done a great job; and I've so enjoyed all the posts/opinions.

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 02 May 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Lummel]

Caro99, on 01 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

... LF trying to be smart and "charm" with his description of harry!after all, sansa told him back in AGoT on the day Ned sends Dondarrion to kill Gregor that she wished Ser Loras had been sent cause he was perfect, so LF must think she still clings to this sort of looks in a man. We don't get to see sansa's reactions to LF's plans about marrying harry in order to reclaim winterfell, but i somehow don't think she will instantly fall for him (even if winterfell is at stake) just cause he is handsome and the means to an end.

I'm not sure it is a case of Littlefinger needing or wanting Sansa to fall for Harry the Heir, isn't it more the other way round, Littlefinger expects Sansa to do her bit so that Harry falls for her - that he's good-looking is surely just a sweetner:
"you must meet the boy and win his approval.  Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that."
"You are promised to Harrold Hardyng, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart...which should not be hard, for you."

[Lyanna Stark]

Raksha the Demon, on 02 May 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Sansa is now wearing the mask of Alayne with outward enthusiasm, but it's not such a perfect fit.  She thinks to herself of having been very lonely at the Eyrie; and she has to remind herself to "be Alayne all the time, inside and out".  She thinks of Sansa's memories and experiences quite a bit.  Her thought "Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down" is "a strange thought", not one she is comfortable with, although she yearns to incorporate Alayne's "bastard brave" veneer.  Masquerading as a bastard has imbued Sansa with more strength and courage and realism than she realized she had; but I think they are her own qualities, just needing the right stimuli to flower in her.  

Good points.  While Sansa sees her old self as "just a frightened little girl" it seems fairly certain to the readers that even though she draws strength from her Alayne Stone persona, she is still Sansa Stark and doesn't really need Alayne to be strong, brave and competent: she already had it in her but the Kings Landing environment was not in any way conducive for her to develop that type of traits, or even to display them.

Quote

Alayne handles the difficult chore of getting SweetRobin out of bed and then out of the Eyrie and down the mountain quite well, despite her unease.  Her exaggeration of her own fear as a method of bolstering the courage of this very weak, sickly and child is a master-stroke - as young and neurotic as Robert is, he is still a boy, and boys want to impress pretty girls with their heroism.  And her meeting and conversation with the intriguing Myranda Royce was delightful, though I have to wonder whether Myranda will become a true friend to Sansa/Alayne or stick to her own agenda (which I think includes getting a new husband who is both prosperous and young enough to give her a child - I wouldn't be surprised if Myranda went after either Petyr or Harry-the-Heir).

On a reread I definitely got the impression that Myranda is feeling out Alayne not so much about Harry the Heir, but about Littlefinger. While she hides it under her jolly demeanour of "wickedness" and trying to make Sansa blush, she's still really straight forward in saying that LF would be a good catch, and then she bluntly goes on to ask LF's supposed daughter about the size of his c*ck indicating that she's interesting in his sexual prowess and if he would be of any use in the marriage bed (which Myranda seems to be fairly clear that she wants).

LF himself says that Myranda "likes to play the merry fool" but that she is really quite sharp. It seems Myranda knows she has no chance with Harry anymore so she prays "he gets the pox", but LF would in many ways be an almost as good a catch, since he is Lord Protector of the Vale and the Riverlands. She also notes that LF was quite devoted to Lysa and that he didn't produce a lot of bastards, unlike Harry (although I suppose Alayne would be evidence to the contrary, but that was also something that supposedly happened many years ago).

If Myranda ends up jealous of Sansa, it seems more likely it will be because she's aiming for LF than Harry the Heir.

Lummel, on 02 May 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

I'm not sure it is a case of Littlefinger needing or wanting Sansa to fall for Harry the Heir, isn't it more the other way round, Littlefinger expects Sansa to do her bit so that Harry falls for her - that he's good-looking is surely just a sweetner:
"you must meet the boy and win his approval.  Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that."
"You are promised to Harrold Hardyng, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart...which should not be hard, for you."

He certainly wants her to do her bit so Harry falls for her, but in this LF is definitely projecting himself onto Sansa. To him, it would be easier to seduce someone good looking. LF himself has already done something similar when he married Lysa, purely for personal gain while totally "faking" any personal feelings. To him it's a part of the game and something you need to master.

What he doesn't fully understand is that Sansa just doesn't want to marry again, maybe ever, since she's seen what it makes of her: a piece of meat and a claim to Winterfell. It reduces her from a person to a thing.
That said, trying to woo Harry is probably going to be a useful experience for Sansa, even if she doesn't actually want him.

EDIT: LF also hints at that he finds Harry to be only a pawn, and probably a temporary one, in his choice of words. He talks dmismissively about Harry's "boyish heart" and how it will be easy for Sansa to win it. So what LF is really saying here is that Sansa is out of Harry's league, that she is meant for "better things", i.e. probably LF himself. It's also further evidence that LF is projecting pretty strongly on Sansa. He really wants her to turn into his accomplise.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 02 May 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[brashcandy]

Raksha the Demon, on 02 May 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

And so we come to the last (published) Sansa chapter of ASoIaF, and it's a doozy.

Sansa is now wearing the mask of Alayne with outward enthusiasm, but it's not such a perfect fit.  She thinks to herself of having been very lonely at the Eyrie; and she has to remind herself to "be Alayne all the time, inside and out".  She thinks of Sansa's memories and experiences quite a bit.  Her thought "Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down" is "a strange thought", not one she is comfortable with, although she yearns to incorporate Alayne's "bastard brave" veneer.  Masquerading as a bastard has imbued Sansa with more strength and courage and realism than she realized she had; but I think they are her own qualities, just needing the right stimuli to flower in her.  

Yes, this is a great point. Sansa believes that she's gaining all this courage from being Alayne Stone, but the truth is that being Alayne Stone is now giving her a more sustained outlet to display such traits. We saw evidence of such before when she was Sansa Stark: saving Dontos, speaking to the women during the Blackwater battle and reaching out to comfort Sandor. It's also a larger comment I think on "bastardy" in Westeros. We could make the argument that all of the Stark children have become bastards, either literal ones like Sansa and Jon, or had their identities bastardised due to losing their home and parents, having to be on the run and seeking refuge in unlikely sources, and not being able to reclaim their Stark identity. What we're seeing with the Stark children, and particularly with Sansa, is that not only does "birthright" not act as some permanent shield from the ravages of war and treachery, but it also doesn't have much to do with qualities like honour, courage, honestr and dignity. Ultimately, whether you're noble born or bastard brave, those are the values which can truly make a difference in how you life turns out and the impact you make on others.

Quote

Alayne handles the difficult chore of getting SweetRobin out of bed and then out of the Eyrie and down the mountain quite well, despite her unease.  Her exaggeration of her own fear as a method of bolstering the courage of this very weak, sickly and child is a master-stroke - as young and neurotic as Robert is, he is still a boy, and boys want to impress pretty girls with their heroism.  And her meeting and conversation with the intriguing Myranda Royce was delightful, though I have to wonder whether Myranda will become a true friend to Sansa/Alayne or stick to her own agenda (which I think includes getting a new husband who is both prosperous and young enough to give her a child - I wouldn't be surprised if Myranda went after either Petyr or Harry-the-Heir).

What I found most interesting in how Sansa handles Sweetrobin is that not only does she fully understand the differentiating gender roles between men and women, but more importantly that she realises how to exploit them. It made me recall what Cersei says when she talks about how Joffrey was shamed by Sansa and so now he shames her in turn. Sansa in this final chapter is a much more sophisticated manipulator of gender politics, and although she hasn't gone as far as Cersei advocated during their Blackwater conversations, she's clearly realised the importance of using her feminine wiles, and playing the damsel in distress. However, she absolutely has no interest in being the damsel in distress anymore, and I think this is why she will rebel against the plans for the Harry the Heir marriage. I'm certain that LF has no intentions on seeing it to fruition, but just like he only saw fit to let Sansa know that she wasn't returning to Winterfell after they got to the Fingers, he'll only tell her this after she's spent the time wooing Harry and preparing herself to reclaim Winterfell. Due to the Tyrion marriage, the Willas disappointment and the Joffrey abuse, Sansa associates marriage and marriage alliances with unhappiness, betrayal and pain. I think she will come to realise that contrary to what she believed, her fate isn't tied to Littlefinger's after all, but to Sweetrobin's, and that will entail rescuing him and leaving the Vale, or getting LF out of the Vale.

Quote

I will miss the chapter recaps and analyses of Sansa Stark's journey so far.  Brashcandy and Rapsie have done a great job; and I've so enjoyed all the posts/opinions.

Thanks so much, Raksha. You've been with the re-read from the very beginning and your analyses have greatly contributed to the rich environment we've been able to cultivate on the thread.

Edited by brashcandy, 02 May 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[The Lost Lord]

Lyanna Stark, on 02 May 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

LF also hints at that he finds Harry to be only a pawn, and probably a temporary one, in his choice of words. He talks dmismissively about Harry's "boyish heart" and how it will be easy for Sansa to win it. So what LF is really saying here is that Sansa is out of Harry's league, that she is meant for "better things", i.e. probably LF himself

I agree that Harry is only a temporary plan -- note also that when Sansa asks if Harry has a bastard kid, LF is happy to confirm he has two, undermining his image a bit.

But I disagree with that LF plans to marry Sansa himself eventually. I think he cares more about power than about his "little finger," and from his perspective, marrying Sansa himself is too big a sacrifice of potential opportunities to gain power by marrying her elsewhere. He wants to win the game of thrones, but he can never be king himself. So he needs Sansa as queen of Westeros, married to someone else, with him as Hand and the chief power behind the throne.

[Queen of Spades]

Lyanna Stark, on 01 May 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

To be fair, we don't really get Sandor's point of view apart from his obvious shock at hearing Sansa married to Tyrion and her flight and then his final outburst at Arya. Considering the frame of mind he was in, I think it's safe to assume he was pretty full of self loathing at that point and I'm not sure he would himself classify the feelings he had for Sansa as anything like "love" since I think he's too messed up to really think that, plus he seems to be fairly clear on that she is actually too young and that it would be Wrong (which would probably only feed the self loathing some more). Maybe the EB understood which way things were heading, but he could certain

Yes, this is what I meant... you explain it so better than me !

Raksha the Demon, on 02 May 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

I will miss the chapter recaps and analyses of Sansa Stark's journey so far.  Brashcandy and Rapsie have done a great job; and I've so enjoyed all the posts/opinions.

I will miss them too. Though I was not on the forum when the adventure began, I am currently reading all the former threads (and you all have been quite prolific !). This is very interesting. Thanks !
I think I will then post some reflexions about some of the chapters I missed...

...starting there :

Caro99, on 01 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

i had forgotten that she must have been a little "dizzy" cause of the wine Cersei made her drink! LOL, and i guess the same thing happened on the night of Ned's tourney when he told her about his scars...

Lyanna Stark, on 01 May 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

*** To be fair to Sansa regarding the mismemory of the unKiss, Cersei had plied her with an awful lot of wine, so the fact that her memory is a bit hazy and that she has embellished quite a few things was probably made easier by her inebriated state. And she would not be the first one to use as an excuse "I was drunk and it was dark!".

Speaking of wine... have anyone noticed that the three men who helped Sansa in KL all had issues with alcohol ?

• Tyrion is always described as drinking "heavily".
  
• Dontos is a well-known drunkard
  
• Sandor when off-duty is more often drunk than not

I don't know what it can mean... except I now find Littlefinger even creepier for  being always sober !
IIRC the only mention of LF being drunk is that time in Riverrun when he took "Cat's" maindenhead... i.e. when he was young and in love. Now, he only is that cold*, sober, and above all creepy guy.
Any interpretation ?

* I do not mean cold in his behaviour towards Alayne, obviouly ( )... but cold in his way of thinking (he is an head-guy instead of a heart-guy).

[Lyanna Stark]

Queen of Spades, on 02 May 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

...starting there :
Speaking of wine... have anyone noticed that the three men who helped Sansa in KL all had issues with alcohol ?

• Tyrion is always described as drinking "heavily".
  
• Dontos is a well-known drunkard
  
• Sandor when off-duty is more often drunk than not

Hah, good point. I saw the similarities between Tyrion and Sandor early on, since they are both quite "damaged goods", both having incidents with Sansa where they are struggling against their baser instincts and they seem to drink as a coping mechanism, but when learn more about Dontos' early life through Brienne in AFFC, it really is a sad story and he likely drank too as a coping mechanism and in the end he does try to do right by Sansa, too. Sansa and the assortment of manly Angst, as it were.

Of all of these, Sansa seemed to have the hardest time feeling sympathy for Tyrion, maybe because he was the most powerful of the three (and a Lannister). The Hound was regardless of his imposing physical stature only a retainer, and Dontos was only a fool.


I know what you mean about the early threads, I speed read through them as well once I found this thread. For a long time I had avoided the book forums since there was a lot of pointless threads, spam and "Who's the best fighter in Westeros, edition 576" threads, but this reread has been a fabulous thing to be a (very small) part of.   to Rapsie and Brashcandy for organising it.

[brashcandy]

Queen of Spades, on 02 May 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I will miss them too. Though I was not on the forum when the adventure began, I am currently reading all the former threads (and you all have been quite prolific !). This is very interesting. Thanks !
I think I will then post some reflexions about some of the chapters I missed...

Thanks for your kind words! And really looking forward to those reflections

Quote

Speaking of wine... have anyone noticed that the three men who helped Sansa in KL all had issues with alcohol ?

• Tyrion is always described as drinking "heavily".
  
• Dontos is a well-known drunkard
  
• Sandor when off-duty is more often drunk than not

I don't know what it can mean... except I now find Littlefinger even creepier for  being always sober !
IIRC the only mention of LF being drunk is that time in Riverrun when he took "Cat's" maindenhead... i.e. when he was young and in love. Now, he only is that cold*, sober, and above all creepy guy.
Any interpretation ?

* I do not mean cold in his behaviour towards Alayne, obviouly ( )... but cold in his way of thinking (he is an head-guy instead of a heart-guy).

I agree that Littlefinger is now normally cold, calm and collected, but I think you might have inadvertently hit on something important here. In this final chapter Sansa notes the smell of wine, cloves and nutmeg on Littlefinger's breath. When I was doing the analysis I was wondering if it could be a significant detail, but now in light of what you've noted above, perhaps this is a sign that LF is losing control, allowing himself to become "intoxicated" with desire for Sansa and that this will be the start of his undoing?


P.S. To Lyanna Stark, you came in late, but you've been fabulous