415 replies to this topic

[Queen of Winter]

Lyanna Stark, on 02 May 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

I know what you mean about the early threads, I speed read through them as well once I found this thread. For a long time I had avoided the book forums since there was a lot of pointless threads, spam and "Who's the best fighter in Westeros, edition 576" threads, but this reread has been a fabulous thing to be a (very small) part of.   to Rapsie and Brashcandy for organising it.

Spot on Lyanna. I lurked forever and a day reading those old threads! I've throughly enjoyed the reread thread, and will miss the posting of new chapters.   And like you stated, thank you brash and Rapsie for creating it, and allowing all of us to participate!

[Queen of Winter]

EDIT: double post.

Edited by Queen of Winter, 02 May 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[Caro99]

Lummel you’re right- LF needs Harry to fall for Sansa, not the other way around particularly. And I think harry will not be able to help himself and he will want Alayne just as soon as he sees her. I’m okay with this since I don’t think Sansa will fall for Harry. She’ll probably think of him along the lines of Lyn Corbray with, “He is nice to look at but his smile does not reach his eyes,” or “He is handsome but he has a cruel mouth...” I don’t know. The only possible scenario I see for her having some feelings for Harry is if they got married and after a couple of years of him treating her nicely I guess... but a wedding between them may not even happen.
  About the talk of Sansa thinking being Alyane Stone is what’s giving her courage, whereas she had the courage all alone, it’s only now that she has the freedom of being someone else that she can experiment & play around with it, I totally agree. I only hope that when the time comes Sansa will realize this so she doesn’t decides to stay as Alayne forever if she comes to believe that only as Alayne can she be strong and brave... Probably not important but just a quick little similarity between Jon & Alayne I came upon when watching the 1^st season. I remember Sam telling Jon that the Lord Commander was grooming him for command; well, isn’t LF doing in a way that with Sansa now while she “plays” at being his bastard daughter..?
  On another topic, I hope that LF does not marry Myranda. We know what happens to the women who want LF who happen to not be Cat or Sansa: the moondoor. And I can sadly see the possibility that if Myranda where to have a child from LF, she might go all Cat with Jon with Sansa then...
  & about the hint of LF’s breath smelling of wine lately as a possible way to coping with his longing to have Sansa at long last... I would really enjoy reading about LF’s downfall as much as I did with Cersei’s, but I would also dread having him finally unable to resist keeping “at bay” where Sansa is concerned.

Brash & Raspie, just as the other girls have said, I will also be missing this re-reads very much L they’ve been so insightful and have allowed me to defend Sansa & at times Sandor from others. So I was wondering... there were some suggestions about doing a Cersei re-read and comparing it to Sansa’s life, or to do one with Arya (which would be great since we would get to see more Sandor), but maybe we could also have this: isn’t there a place in this site where we can start a thread to speculate as to what will happen to Sansa in the next books?? I think I’ve seen it happen with Theon & Arianne, and even Dany with Victarion (but i am not sure if this was cause G.R.R.M has already read some of their chapters from the 6^th book), but if it were possible to have a thread for Sansa’s future in the next 2 books, it would be so great since there are just so many things that could happen to her that we would have lots of things to discuss. So... is it possible?

Edited by Caro99, 02 May 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[brashcandy]

Caro, Rapsie and I decided that we'll keep the thread open for sure, to foster discussion of Sansa's future arc, thoughts on her relationship with Sandor, LF, Tyrion etc. There's been so many wonderful analyses and insights that have come out of this re-read that we have a depth of information and strands from which to build theories. So basically when this current thread is closed by the mods, either Rapsie or myself will open another one back in the Gen section I guess it'll be entitled something like, "From Pawn to Player: Afterthoughts".

[Raksha the Demon]

Some thoughts on Littlefinger's scheme to betroth Alayne to Harry-the-Heir:

I think LF means it for real.  The way he breaks the news of his plan to Sansa seems like a carrot-and-stick to further his seduction of the girl - I've got a cute lordling for you to marry, his knights will get Winterfell for you, so give me a kiss, sweetling.
But I think he's at least serious about the betrothal.  

If Littlefinger is to continue to rule the Vale, he cannot do so in his own right; since he has no legal/blood connection to the succession.  His only hope is to influence the true lord of the Eyrie, to continue to be Lord Protector.    Hence a need for a pliable, pretty and well-pedigreed maiden to use as marriage-bait with which to ensnare the Eyrie's young lord.   His plan had to be to arrange a marriage of his pawn to the Eyrie's heir, assure that she produced a son or two, continue as a figure of power in the Vale, and then have the young lord killed and become Lord Protector again.  I assume that LF decided fairly early in his planning stages that Robert Arryn would not live long enough to come of age and marry and impregnate a bride.

Did he have this in his mind before he made the arrangements to whisk Sansa away from King's Landing with a murdered king in her wake, or did he start developing the plan after bringing Sansa to the Fingers?  Lysa ordered Sansa to marry Robert after spending time with Littlefinger, I imagine that Littlefinger gave her the idea.  

What I can't figure out is why is Littlefinger is in such a hurry with the betrothal and the implied facilitation of Robert Arryn's early death.    Tyrion is still missing, Sansa/Alayne is still technically married to him and cannot marry anyone else legally, and there's still a charge of regicide hanging over her head, and the vengeful woman who issued the charge may be temporarily de-fanged, but is still alive and can regain power; and no one has rescinded the charge that Sansa Stark was at least an accessory to King Joffrey's death.   Littlefinger can't marry Alayne to anyone in the next few months, the process  of clearing her name and annulling her prior marriage will probably take years.  I would think that Littlefinger would be doing everything possible to keep Robert Arryn alive; because the boy is the basis of his power.  The minute the child dies is the minute that Littlefinger's major claim to the Lord Protectorship expires, and the minute that Harry-the-Heir and his guardian Lady Waynwood sweep into the Eyrie and claim it.  

Littlefinger implied, when telling Alayne about his marvelous plan to wed her to Harry, that Lady Waynwood had some debts that he had acquired or paid off, and that Lady W. is now willing for the betrothal to take place, provided that Harry agrees.  So what he's done here is to buy some time.  Alayne will meet young Harry, they will have conversations, perhaps go riding together, this will take a few months at least; and then Harry will agree to the betrothal.  Littlefinger at least does not underestimate certain qualities that Sansa has in abundance and that he himself lacks - sexual and personal charm, and charisma.   LF might even have told Lady W. about Alayne's true identity to sweeten the lure; though I tend to doubt it.  Lady W. did treat Alayne kindly and courteously when the Lords Declarant came to the Eyrie to present their demands, several months back; either she just happens to be a decent woman, or LF had already approached her with tentative offers of financial aid in return for her ward's betrothal to his gorgeous young bastard daughter.  Once a betrothal between Harry and Alayne is arranged, its duration can be anywhere from a year to two years or even more, since they're both quite young (Alayne is supposedly 14, I think Harry is 15 or so).  So Littlefinger buys himself more time to free Sansa from her prior marriage and the regicide charge, while removing Harry from other alliances in the marriage game.  However, if little Robert dies while Alayne and Harry are betrothed, Lady Waynwood would still have a better claim than Littlefinger to rule the Vale until Harry comes of age; which is why I would think LF should be trying to prolong his stepson's life rather than shorten it.  

Anyone know if Lady Waynwood is a widow?  

If, as I believe, LF's goal is to reveal a free-to-marry Sansa Stark as the bride of the Vale heir and see them wed, then encourage Sansa to produce sons, what is his design after that.  I think LF would arrange a hunting accident for Harry as soon as Sansa popped out a healthy son or two.  At that point, the newly widowed Sansa would still be only 19 or so, still pretty, still (as far as LF believes in AFFC) the heir of Winterfell and possessing a blood claim on Riverrun, and also demonstrably fertile - an ideal prize on the marriage market.  LF could either marry Sansa Stark himself to buy another 14 or so years as Lord Protector of the Vale, or dangle her as a prize for a bachelor king.  Does Littlefinger know about young Aegon, or does he intend to arrange the killing of either Margaery Tyrell (who might not survive the year anyway) or Selyse Baratheon?

And I wonder if Petyr's fingers extend to Casterly Rock, where Edmure Tully and his pregnant wife were supposedly going to live out their lives as pampered prisoners?  If Edmure and his child die, then Sansa Stark becomes the only descendant of Hoster Tully known to be alive; so through her, LF can extend his reach to Winterfell and Riverrun if, as LF might well believe, the current holders of those domains are killed/deposed.  

Most of Littlefinger's rather grandiose scheme depends on Sansa being a docile, obedient pawn who will be his willing agent.  That's a huge assumption for Littlefinger to make, especially since this pawn is a 13-year-old girl who is not finished growing up.  Perhaps that is why he is trying to seduce her sexually as well as emotionally/politically, to bind her to him in all ways?   

But Littlefinger really does not know Sansa as well as he thinks.  He seems to think that Sansa still dreams of marrying a knight in shining armor, hence the slightly mocking description of Harry as a handsome, macho 'Young Falcon'.  But Sansa is leery of marriage, thanks to her humiliation and abuse at Joffrey's hands and the nightmarish forced marriage and wedding night she endured with Tyrion.  She doesn't dream of pretty young knights any more, she dreams of a rough-speaking scarred warrior who scorned knighthood.  Littlefinger doesn't know the inner Sansa at all; and Alayne is a construct that he is trying to make and that Sansa has only embraced as armor, the way she uses courtesy.  

And of course, Littlefinger's grand design will lose a good deal of its momentum when Rickon is returned to the game and revealed, since his claim legally supersedes that of Sansa.  She will still have value, since Rickon is a small boy; but not quite as much as Littlefinger assumes right now.  

I think LF's schemes have major holes in them, even without the prospect of Rickon's return.  What if Harry doesn't like Sansa, or likes her too much and tries to rape her?  What if Sansa balks at the prospect of killing her cousin instead of letting nature take its course?  What if Sansa is discovered, word sent to King's Landing and the crown (Mace Tyrell and/or Cersei) demands her surrender?  

And the action that LF does not anticipate; since he has a huge emotional delusion confusing the young Catelyn and Sansa, that the girl will tire of his sexual seduction and turn on him or flee him and the Vale altogether?  

LF might have done better to use Myranda Royce as his pawn; she at least might have been willing to go along with him, enjoyed being Mrs. Littlefinger or even Harry-the-Heir's wife if LF used financial pressure on Lady Waynwood.

I think we are going to see something happen in TWOW that galvanizes Alayne into rediscovering her inner Starkness - perhaps LF's announcement in AFFC that Robert was going to die has already triggered her to plan an escape or a way to stop LF from engineering the boy's death.  If Sansa is ever going to make a decent life for herself, she is going to have to learn that at some point, she must save herself rather than rely on others to save her.  It's reasonable that she would want to wait until she is older, 15-17, to make her move, she is still quite young; but she may not have that much time before she crosses more perilous moral lines (as in her involvement with giving Robert the sweetmilk) or irrevocable decisions are made for her or in her name.
        

[Elba the Intoner]

Just some more thoughts as we are winding down.  I'm really looking forward to the post on the overall arc and recap and as Caro said I do hope we'll be able to continue in some way.  This thread has been great!  I also have to repeat what the others have said and say thank you Brash and Rapsie!  It was a lot of work to keep this going but I know everyone who has participated has really appreciated it.  This thread is what got me to start posting here and my very first post was on this thread.  I started following it from the beginning and had to jump in!

Raksha's comments about Sweet Robin, I agree that he is a sad little boy and even though he is a spoiled brat I really do feel sorry for him.  He is only a brat because of the way he has been raised and he's lost everything and only has Sansa/Alayne to cling to now.  What I have hoped for since I finished the books is that Sansa will be the one to take down Petyr/LF in some way as she is his weakness, but that part of this will include taking care of Sweet Robin.  I hope that he will not only survive but with Sansa's care he will actually thrive though that's looking really iffy right now, sad to say.

@Queen of Spades, I noticed too how the three men who protected Sansa or tried to help her in King's Landing were the anti-knights.  That irony is the main theme to the first part of her arc and was necessary to get her head out of the clouds and stop daydreaming in this last chapter.  Now that she's finally made that journey, I can't wait to see where she goes next!  Gah!  We have to wait 6 years to find out!   But good catch on the detail that Petyr seems to have been drinking and perhaps even a bit drunk in this chapter which is something we have not seen before and that does seem to be important somehow.

Caro, I liked your thoughts regarding the parallels between Jon and Sansa here.  I think this is another way that being a being a bastard could help Sansa besides giving her the freedom to act bravely, because it also allows her to come down to the level of someone who is not as high born as she is and relate to lowborn and common people in a new way.  That is a very important quality for a good leader to have.  So, it seems that Sansa is sharing parallels with both Arya and Jon, who are the two who at first were the most different from her of all her siblings and who she seemed to be the least close to.  Add to this that we also got the sense from this reread of similar Sansa is to Ned, when at first she appeared to be Cat 2.0 (and still is to Petyr) it really adds such depth to her personality.

I also agree that Myranda should stay as far away from LF as possible.  LF does say she is shrewd and he's usually a good judge of that sort of thing, so hopefully Myranda will pick up on the fact that she should just stay away from him.

[Elba the Intoner]

Awesome post Raksha!  I was working on mine and posted just after yours so did not see it until after I posted mine above.  I agree with you that I think LF fully intends for Sansa and Harry to marry for the reasons you said:

"I think LF means it for real. The way he breaks the news of his plan to Sansa seems like a carrot-and-stick to further his seduction of the girl - I've got a cute lordling for you to marry, his knights will get Winterfell for you, so give me a kiss, sweetling.
But I think he's at least serious about the betrothal.

If Littlefinger is to continue to rule the Vale, he cannot do so in his own right; since he has no legal/blood connection to the succession. His only hope is to influence the true lord of the Eyrie, to continue to be Lord Protector. Hence a need for a pliable, pretty and well-pedigreed maiden to use as marriage-bait with which to ensnare the Eyrie's young lord. His plan had to be to arrange a marriage of his pawn to the Eyrie's heir, assure that she produced a son or two, continue as a figure of power in the Vale, and then have the young lord killed and become Lord Protector again. I assume that LF decided fairly early in his planning stages that Robert Arryn would not live long enough to come of age and marry and impregnate a bride."

Whether this will actually happen is a different story and I don't think it will.  There are just too many other factors out there that could interfere as you pointed out so eloquently above.

I too wonder if LF knows about Aegon.  It doesn't seem so as he references three queens but nothing about a young prince or anything like that.  As for the three queens, when I first read it I thought he must be referring to Cersei, Margaery and the QOT and that he didn't know about Dany.  But going through this reread, I remembered that he does know about the existence of Dany.  There have been a couple of references to the dragons being born and of course I forgot about how in AGOT he was part of the discussion between Robert and Ned about whether to kill Dany or not.  So, yeah, I now think the three Queens he mentions refers to Cersei, Marg and Dany.

[Maroucia]

Caro99, on 02 May 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Lummel you’re right- LF needs Harry to fall for Sansa, not the other way around particularly. And I think harry will not be able to help himself and he will want Alayne just as soon as he sees her. I’m okay with this since I don’t think Sansa will fall for Harry. She’ll probably think of him along the lines of Lyn Corbray with, “He is nice to look at but his smile does not reach his eyes,” or “He is handsome but he has a cruel mouth...” I don’t know. The only possible scenario I see for her having some feelings for Harry is if they got married and after a couple of years of him treating her nicely I guess... but a wedding between them may not even happen.

Ha! She sure doesn’t seem to mind cruel months at all!

[voodooqueen126]

Rose and Thorns, on 30 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Oh, I think he'd give up the Vale in a heartbeat - and might not wait for her annulment - if the North and Riverlands were seriously in play.  But a dynastic marriage for Sansa is his current best hope of keeping power in the Vale past the demise of Sweetrobin.  Although I quite agree with a lot of previous posters that Harry wouldn't last long after providing legitimate issue.

I don't think that's how it's going to play out, though.  Littlefinger's little finger is IMO about to trip him up.   Not being able to just take her is starting to make him fray around the cracks.  There are more eyes and ears around to see when he makes a mistake.  

Ironically, Tyrion is still preserving Sansa Stark's virginity, even though he's on another continent right now.

Excellent analysis, thank you for it.

Exactly. How does Littlefinger plan on keeping in control of the Vale (a far more defensible territory), if not through Sansa-Harry the Heir?
Without the Sansa-Harry marriage LF would have no army with which to control the Riverlands (since non of it's lords have the kin ties and friendship that they have with the Tullys).
Yet his sexual interest in her is obvious, so he can either be interested in sex (and therefore loose the ability to use Alayne as one would use a real daughter), or use Alayne to make marital alliances with Harry (and thus give Sansa immense power).
Also poisoning SweetRobin when the child is already fragile, when a Sansa-Tyrion annulment would take years, seems incredibly stupid.

I should also say that LF is in full Humbert Humbert mode this chapter.

[Lyanna Stark]

Elba the Intoner, on 02 May 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Caro, I liked your thoughts regarding the parallels between Jon and Sansa here.  I think this is another way that being a being a bastard could help Sansa besides giving her the freedom to act bravely, because it also allows her to come down to the level of someone who is not as high born as she is and relate to lowborn and common people in a new way.  That is a very important quality for a good leader to have.  So, it seems that Sansa is sharing parallels with both Arya and Jon, who are the two who at first were the most different from her of all her siblings and who she seemed to be the least close to.  Add to this that we also got the sense from this reread of similar Sansa is to Ned, when at first she appeared to be Cat 2.0 (and still is to Petyr) it really adds such depth to her personality.

I think through rereading, it becomes more obvious that Sansa is a lot like Ned. I know people claim Arya is Ned writ small and in female form, but I tend to think of her more as a Lyanna come again, while Sansa has a lot of Ned's qualities: his compassion and thoughtfulness. That's not to say Cat didn't possess those qualities (I actually think Cat and Ned worked well together because they are rather similar and on the same "wavelength" in most things), because I think she was a compassionate person, and thoughtful and strong, but there is a sharpness to Cat that Ned seems to lack and that I'd say Arya has more of than Sansa.

It's also very interesting to follow Sansa's arc and how she learns to relate to "common people" or people of various births and station in life (Arya has a similar arc in many ways) and actually "see" them. In Kings Landing she associates with a retainer and a fool, in the Eyrie with bastard daughters, servants, maesters and lowborn knights and she's learning to appreciate that people can be good, bad or anything in between and that this is totally unrelated to birth or station. I agree that this is a very important quality in a good leader and something Ned knew well and I hope Sansa will emulate. In AGOT she's far more concerned with surface and glamour, but by AFFC, she evaluates people based on their personalities and characteristics. She describes Lothor Brune as strong, loyal and silent, Lyn Corbray as dangerous (and recognises the lie) and Mya Stone as stubborn as a mule. What she values is also different. Ned famously said in AGOT that he'd marry her to someone "brave, gentle and strong" and Sansa of AGOT could not care less, but Sansa of AFFC has learnt to really appreciate those traits in a person.

This also stands in stark contrast to how Cersei treats people as completely disposable, with utter contempt and a complete sense of entitlement. As scared of Cersei as Sansa is, I think she's learnt some valuable lessons from Cersei. The first is that Cersei is not a good people person. She can be lovely, but she has a hard time reining in her contempt and entitlement, which makes her unable to feel any compassion. This lack of people skills means she doesn't understand people and she prefers to have people around her she can rule with an iron fist instead of those she can subtly manipulate. Contrats with LF's wisdom: if you know what a man wants, you can move him. Cersei doesn't know and doesn't care that she doesn't know.
The second is that ruling/excerting power as a woman is hard, and it contains a lot of hard (and messy!) truths, even if you happen to be a queen. Nine part mess to one part magic, I think it was. Cersei also instructed Sansa on how to play the damsel in distress, or how to use sex to get to the goal, but the difference is that Cersei wants to rule through pure force, while she despises more subtle manipulations (even when she tries to use them, often unsucessfully, like with Falyse Stokeworth or the Kettleblacks).

voodooqueen126, on 03 May 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Exactly. How does Littlefinger plan on keeping in control of the Vale (a far more defensible territory), if not through Sansa-Harry the Heir?
Without the Sansa-Harry marriage LF would have no army with which to control the Riverlands (since non of it's lords have the kin ties and friendship that they have with the Tullys).
Yet his sexual interest in her is obvious, so he can either be interested in sex (and therefore loose the ability to use Alayne as one would use a real daughter), or use Alayne to make marital alliances with Harry (and thus give Sansa immense power).
Also poisoning SweetRobin when the child is already fragile, when a Sansa-Tyrion annulment would take years, seems incredibly stupid.

I should also say that LF is in full Humbert Humbert mode this chapter.

I just don't think that LF's ultimate goal is to have the Vale. The man has larger ambitions than that. That said, I think his original ambition with the Lannister/Stark infighting plot was to jockey for power, but I think now when he has Sansa, his plans are deviating a bit from their original. Now he doesn't just want power and revenge, he wants to have the dream of his youth come true, i.e. he wants ersatz Catelyn for himself. Which seems to work partly against his original powerplay, as he needs to be very patient to get to the end game, as it were.

Regarding Sansa's power in a marriage with Harry, Harry would be the one with the power in his hands since he would be the lord. Whether or not Sansa and Littlefinger could manipulate him...possibly. But Sansa would only be his lady wife with no real power at all.

As for the annulment, it's in the tapestry shipment!!!

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 03 May 2012 - 03:35 AM.

[Lummel]

A post as fine as strawberries Lyanna!

Agree very much with your Sansa as The Ned's daughter, in how she looks at and understands people.  There's a subtly about Sansa beneath her courtesy and its interesting how some readers like Cersei mistake that for stupidity.

I'm not sure about Littlefinger and his ambitions.  I can't share your certainty that he has some big political ambition beyond revenge on the Starks and Tullys.

[Raksha the Demon]

It could be said that if LF's grand design is to bring the lands of three great houses - Stark, Tully, and Arryn (the North, the Riverlands, the Vale) - under his control via the person of a Stark-Tully daughter, he will have exceeded the original alliance of his foster-father Hoster Tully in scope.  Hoster Tully created an alliance between three separate Houses, each House remaining separate but equal.  Littlefinger, if he were to succeed in bringing the lands of the Starks, Tullys, and Arryn's into his hands via Sansa Stark, would be the de facto lord of all three domains.  At least that's how he imagines it.  I don't think he could make it work, not without digging up a lot of dirt on many influential lords in each bannermen.  And Sansa might not go along with being Littlefinger's tool forever even if he weren't planning on killing her cousin.  Not to mention the unanticipated arrivals of perhaps two Targaryen invasions, one with dragons, and a very possible invasion by the Others.  I can't see the lords of the North being satisfied with Littlefinger's distant mastery from the Eyrie as they're fending off starvation, cold and ice zombies.  

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 03 May 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[greensleeves]

Can I just say that I adore this thread?  As a lurker who came in fairly late in the game, I have loved reading FPtP threads V and VI.  I assume from the numbering that there were once threads I, II, III, and IV.  I would love to read these as well, but can't find them.  Do they fall beyond the mysterious age-cutoff that seems to have swallowed the last few pages of re-read threads? (Does everyone else get that as well?)

The FPtP threads are awesome and should always be visible.  Can the mods pin them or something?  I hate to think that if I were a few months later to the fandom I never would have seen them at all!

[Lummel]

Greensleeves - try searching on (with?) Google eg "westeros from pawn to player" or something.  Doesn't work with bing, haven't tried other search engines.

[greensleeves]

Thanks for the idea Lummel!

I found the previous threads by searching for "from pawn to player" in the search box in the forums.   Apparently they are buried in the general forum.  I now have enough Sansa re-reading fun to last me awhile!  

I would like to reiterate that for future fans these threads need to be put in one place on the front page of something so that they are visible and easily accessible.

Edited by greensleeves, 03 May 2012 - 06:44 AM.

[mor2]

This can be achieved by linking all the previous threads in the OP, something like this:
Previous threads of 'From pawn to player rereading sansa': Thread i, Thread ii, Thread iii, Thread iv, Thread v, Thread vi

Edited by mor2, 03 May 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[brashcandy]

Mor2, thanks so much for linking the old threads!

Lyanna Stark, on 03 May 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

I just don't think that LF's ultimate goal is to have the Vale. The man has larger ambitions than that. That said, I think his original ambition with the Lannister/Stark infighting plot was to jockey for power, but I think now when he has Sansa, his plans are deviating a bit from their original. Now he doesn't just want power and revenge, he wants to have the dream of his youth come true, i.e. he wants ersatz Catelyn for himself. Which seems to work partly against his original powerplay, as he needs to be very patient to get to the end game, as it were.

I agree with this. I think LF started out definitely wanting to create chaos in order to accrue additional power and exact revenge on the Starks and the Tullys, but ever since he first laid eyes on Sansa, he's been plotting how best to go about getting that power and getting his new Cat as well. Cersei's revelation in ADWD that LF wanted to marry Sansa after her father's death should be taken pretty seriously in any consideration of what his final plans are for the girl. What we've seen in the series is that LF doesn't change his plans but is simply very skilled at adapting them to face whatever obstacles or surprises which might develop. Based on this, I don't think that just because LF was denied an opportunity to have Sansa as a wife back in AGOT that he has now given up on those plans. It wouldn't have been the first time that LF heard he wasn't good enough to marry someone of noble birth, but it didn't stop him from eventually marrying Lysa Tully if only to kill her in the end. LF of course wants it to appear that he giving Sansa options, that he's not the obsessive controlling pervert we know he really is. So, he gets her to call him daddy, whilst kissing her like a lover would. And he gets her to believe that reclaiming Winterfell is possible, when he most likely knows that the North is a shitfuck. If LF knows about Dany and her dragons, and he's betting on supporting the dragon queen, then he may be banking on a power that will supercede the wishes of a few measly Lord Declarants, most of whom he's already been able to buy.

Edited by brashcandy, 03 May 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[voodooqueen126]

Lummel, on 03 May 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

A post as fine as strawberries Lyanna!

Agree very much with your Sansa as The Ned's daughter, in how she looks at and understands people.  There's a subtly about Sansa beneath her courtesy and its interesting how some readers like Cersei mistake that for stupidity.

I'm not sure about Littlefinger and his ambitions.  I can't share your certainty that he has some big political ambition beyond revenge on the Starks and Tullys.

Raksha the Demon, on 03 May 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

It could be said that if LF's grand design is to bring the lands of three great houses - Stark, Tully, and Arryn (the North, the Riverlands, the Vale) - under his control via the person of a Stark-Tully daughter, he will have exceeded the original alliance of his foster-father Hoster Tully in scope.  Hoster Tully created an alliance between three separate Houses, each House remaining separate but equal.  Littlefinger, if he were to succeed in bringing the lands of the Starks, Tullys, and Arryn's into his hands via Sansa Stark, would be the de facto lord of all three domains.  At least that's how he imagines it.  I don't think he could make it work, not without digging up a lot of dirt on many influential lords in each bannermen.  And Sansa might not go along with being Littlefinger's tool forever even if he weren't planning on killing her cousin.  Not to mention the unanticipated arrivals of perhaps two Targaryen invasions, one with dragons, and a very possible invasion by the Others.  I can't see the lords of the North being satisfied with Littlefinger's distant mastery from the Eyrie as they're fending off starvation, cold and ice zombies.  

I think those two aims are sort of the same though.
It's sort of like the time my parents parked our family car in Wooloomooloo. It was then broken into, stuffed was robbed, and the things that had no value they masturbated onto and dumped on someone's lawn.
Or people who break into homes and poop on the bed. Also my mother's ironing lady had a friend whose partner used to beat her, so Ironing Lady used to try and break them up. Anyway she held a barbeque and invited her friend (and true to DV form the partner was trying to isolate her from everyone) and unfortunately her friends' violent partner came along. The party was going okay, but Ironing Lady walked into the bathroom and found the violent partner masturbating into her sink....
Okay so these are sort of small examples, but when people want to avenge themselves on people they sort of take things from the or dishonour them.
So I think Baelish, by taking over the North, Riverlands and Vale (the house that Catelyn married, the House that rejected him, and the house that Lysa married), is sort of doing the same thing as the guy masturbating into the sink.
On some level.

[Maroucia]

Lyanna Stark, on 03 May 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

As for the annulment, it's in the tapestry shipment!!!

Reallyyy??
Did I miss something? Please explain.

Edited by Maroucia, 03 May 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Maroucia, on 03 May 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Reallyyy??
Did I miss something? Please explain.

Don't worry, it's just my personal crackpot that the Tapestry shipment carries the annulment + Sansa's stuff from Kings Landing (since Tyrion's was set on fire when Cersei burned the Tower of the Hand).