415 replies to this topic

[Maroucia]

@ Lyanna

Why would Cersei send an annulment of Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage to Littlefinger?
Or do you think someone else would’ve hid it in the tapestries? Who? And how would the annulment be done, with the high septon?

As you can see, I’m very curious about your crackpot…

Edited by Maroucia, 03 May 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[Fire Eater]

The way Sansa is afraid of Cersei begs the question:

Do you think Sansa will ever come face to face with Cersei again, and if so, how?

[Lyanna Stark]

Maroucia, on 03 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why would Cersei send an annulment of Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage to Littlefinger?
Or do you think someone else would’ve hid it in the tapestries? Who? And how would the annulment be done, with the high septon?

As you can see, I’m very curious about your crackpot…

Well basically, both Cersei and Littlefinger mention the tapestries, and why would LF want some of Robert's old tapestries? Cersei seems a bit bemused by it, but promises to send them.

My theory is that they are being used to smuggle something out, since what better way to smuggle something out under Cersei's nose than within something she herself is sending? Littlefinger also seems pleased that Cersei is sending them, and why would he be pleased and almost gloat about some old tapestries?

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 03 May 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[Maroucia]

Fire Eater, on 03 May 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

The way Sansa is afraid of Cersei begs the question:

Do you think Sansa will ever come face to face with Cersei again, and if so, how?

I would be very surprised if Sansa and Cersei never meet again.
Hopefully it will be in a totally different situation where the power is reversed from Cersei to Sansa…

If Sansa ever becomes a Queen, she could let Cersei live, but take all her power for her. She probably won’t be as cruel to Cersei as she was with her though.  It could be great if Cersei ends up living a quiet life in some old castle with nothing else to do then some knitting and needle work(not the Arya way, of course).

I would also love for Cersei to realise that Sansa is not the stupid girl she thought she was.

@Lyanna


Those tapestries are definitely worth a few crackpot theories… I can’t wait to know why the hell would Littlefinger want them.
Your smuggling theory is very likely, but I’m kind of confused as to how would an annulment be done without Cersei learning about it, and who could be willing and would have the power to produce it legally?  Also, in Westeros, can a marriage be annulled without the consent of at least one of the spouses?
Lots of questions, not many answers...
Can't wait for TWOW!!!

Edited by Maroucia, 03 May 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Rose and Thorns]

voodooqueen126, on 03 May 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Exactly. How does Littlefinger plan on keeping in control of the Vale (a far more defensible territory), if not through Sansa-Harry the Heir?
Without the Sansa-Harry marriage LF would have no army with which to control the Riverlands (since non of it's lords have the kin ties and friendship that they have with the Tullys).
Yet his sexual interest in her is obvious, so he can either be interested in sex (and therefore loose the ability to use Alayne as one would use a real daughter), or use Alayne to make marital alliances with Harry (and thus give Sansa immense power).
Also poisoning SweetRobin when the child is already fragile, when a Sansa-Tyrion annulment would take years, seems incredibly stupid.

I should also say that LF is in full Humbert Humbert mode this chapter.

Boy, howdy, is he ever.  That's why I think that's what will trip him up.  It is his weakness.

He needs Sweetrobin to stay alive until he can get Harry the Heir sorted out.   We expect that Harry will be enchanted by the beautiful and charming "Alayne", but no wedding can take place until Sansa's marriage is ended.  Even if the Lords Declarant have started coming around, and his clever ploy with various titles issued in his own name will help ensure loyalty of those who recieve them, he is essentially out on his ass if Sweetrobin dies.  Back to the Fingers (dull) or King's Landing (far more dangerous) with him.

[Caro99]

*  Brash, that is really good to here! Appreciate the time you & Raspie have put into this thread, and the future effort with the Afterthoughts as well…
*  Maroucia- LOL, yes indeed, Sansa has a thing apparently for cruel mouths! How silly of me to forget it
*  Voodooqueen, agree with the Humbert & LF in this chapter being alike- when he sits her on his lap! Thank the gods Sansa is nothing like Lolita.
*  Raksha, great posts on SR & LF!
*  Elba, your post on Sansa and how she’s interacted with commoners was very good. We can see as I think you mentioned the difference from the 1^st chapter ever to the last Alayne chapter. Sansa on the day Lady was killed was quite shocked that Arya would want to spend her day talking to hedge knights and being friends with a butcher’s son, among other commoners. But ironically Sansa ended up flirting with hedge knights in her last chapter, and has also developed feelings for a man who has called himself a butcher one the night when they were on the roof top. & she does not need to get down in the mud and get dirty like arya did to understand simple folk. she would rule like eddard i think, and like bran did it for some months. i can't remember if it is something they tell Robb when he has to kill the karstark, but someone somewhere in the books says something like "you must know the men following you and have mutual respect between you and them, but don't get too close to them cause one day you might need to kill them." Arya would have a harder time maybe with this since she became friends with these people (the butcher's boy) but Sansa would probably have a better take on the whole situation. And it is also an ironic twist that Sansa, through her experiences, has managed to change her initial views on life, whereas Arya has a hardertime doing it. Arya sticks to her views and won’t let them go. I mean, it took her months to relent and grudgningly “admire” Sandor. She kept reminding herself that he killed Mycah and that he was as bad as The Tickler and Polliver even at the inn of the crossroads. But Sansa can change her views of the world and admit that there might be others which are better, and if she ends up becoming queen or the Lady of a great house, this is a good quality. She does not have to take it to the extreme of being manipulated by everyone around her and unable to trust her views any longer. It is rather like what happened with Jon and his take on the wildings. He came to know them and agreed that they weren’t all bad. If he hadn’t then he probably would’ve been killed back on the days when he was with Ygritte and Mance, I think.
* Fire Eater, I want Sansa & Cersei to meet again! I would love it if, when that time comes, Sansa is in the full blossom of her power and Cersei is almost lost, and then Sansa tries to show her some kindness… sort of like Jane Eyre when she told her mean aunt as she was dying that she forgave her. Just much more epic... (Whenever I hear the 7 Devils song I picture Sansa having her revenge on Cersei   ). But I do not see Cersei going down the path of redemption. Jaime’s already done that, so to have Cersei doing it as well, I just don’t think it’s that possible. She might’ve if things with Jaime hadn’t gone sour, but now she wouldn’t even have his love to help her along. In the prophecy Maggy the Frog gave her, I understood it as if all her children would be dying before her, so she wouldn’t even have her nice children either to make her appreciate that living a simple life isn’t as bad as she thinks it is- she seems to dislike the idea of being Lady Lannister and living at Casterly Rock confined, and that’s not living simple at all!

Edited by Caro99, 03 May 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Maroucia]

Caro99, on 03 May 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

*  Elba, your post on Sansa and how she’s interacted with commoners was very good. We can see as I think you mentioned the difference from the 1^st chapter ever to the last Alayne chapter. Sansa on the day Lady was killed was quite shocked that Arya would want to spend her day talking to hedge knights and being friends with a butcher’s son, among other commoners. But ironically Sansa ended up flirting with hedge knights in her last chapter, and has also developed feelings for a man who has called himself a butcher one the night when they were on the roof top. & she does not need to get down in the mud and get dirty like arya did to understand simple folk. she would rule like eddard i think, and like bran did it for some months. i can't remember if it is something they tell Robb when he has to kill the karstark, but someone somewhere in the books says something like "you must know the men following you and have mutual respect between you and them, but don't get too close to them cause one day you might need to kill them." Arya would have a harder time maybe with this since she became friends with these people (the butcher's boy) but Sansa would probably have a better take on the whole situation. And it is also an ironic twist that Sansa, through her experiences, has managed to change her initial views on life, whereas Arya has a hardertime doing it. Arya sticks to her views and won’t let them go. I mean, it took her months to relent and grudgningly “admire” Sandor. She kept reminding herself that he killed Mycah and that he was as bad as The Tickler and Polliver even at the inn of the crossroads.

As much as I love Sandor, I have to defend Arya on that one. I two, wanted her to start liking Sandor, at least a little, but we should not forget that, unlike Sansa, she was kidnaped by Sandor against her will. It's hard to like someone in these conditions.

[Caro99]

Maroucia, on 03 May 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

As much as I love Sandor, I have to defend Arya on that one. I two, wanted her to start liking Sandor, at least a little, but we should not forget that, unlike Sansa, she was kidnaped by Sandor against her will. It's hard to like someone in these conditions.

yeah, and he also hit her head with the flat of an axe and threatened her with beating her bloody.. i guess i don't mean her liking him. maybe just realizing that he isn't either all black or all white- he is just as everybody else, grey eventually, not right away... i think that by AFFC she sort of realized it, but being as it isn't a thing that really takes her attention, and being as she is not even 11 i think, i can see how she had trouble with taking time to stop saying his name on her night prayers.

[Raksha the Demon]

Lyanna Stark, on 03 May 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

I think through rereading, it becomes more obvious that Sansa is a lot like Ned. I know people claim Arya is Ned writ small and in female form, but I tend to think of her more as a Lyanna come again, while Sansa has a lot of Ned's qualities: his compassion and thoughtfulness. That's not to say Cat didn't possess those qualities (I actually think Cat and Ned worked well together because they are rather similar and on the same "wavelength" in most things), because I think she was a compassionate person, and thoughtful and strong, but there is a sharpness to Cat that Ned seems to lack and that I'd say Arya has more of than Sansa.

It's also very interesting to follow Sansa's arc and how she learns to relate to "common people" or people of various births and station in life (Arya has a similar arc in many ways) and actually "see" them. In Kings Landing she associates with a retainer and a fool, in the Eyrie with bastard daughters, servants, maesters and lowborn knights and she's learning to appreciate that people can be good, bad or anything in between and that this is totally unrelated to birth or station. I agree that this is a very important quality in a good leader and something Ned knew well and I hope Sansa will emulate. In AGOT she's far more concerned with surface and glamour, but by AFFC, she evaluates people based on their personalities and characteristics. She describes Lothor Brune as strong, loyal and silent, Lyn Corbray as dangerous (and recognises the lie) and Mya Stone as stubborn as a mule. What she values is also different. Ned famously said in AGOT that he'd marry her to someone "brave, gentle and strong" and Sansa of AGOT could not care less, but Sansa of AFFC has learnt to really appreciate those traits in a person.

This also stands in stark contrast to how Cersei treats people as completely disposable, with utter contempt and a complete sense of entitlement. As scared of Cersei as Sansa is, I think she's learnt some valuable lessons from Cersei. The first is that Cersei is not a good people person. She can be lovely, but she has a hard time reining in her contempt and entitlement, which makes her unable to feel any compassion. This lack of people skills means she doesn't understand people and she prefers to have people around her she can rule with an iron fist instead of those she can subtly manipulate. Contrats with LF's wisdom: if you know what a man wants, you can move him. Cersei doesn't know and doesn't care that she doesn't know.
The second is that ruling/excerting power as a woman is hard, and it contains a lot of hard (and messy!) truths, even if you happen to be a queen. Nine part mess to one part magic, I think it was. Cersei also instructed Sansa on how to play the damsel in distress, or how to use sex to get to the goal, but the difference is that Cersei wants to rule through pure force, while she despises more subtle manipulations (even when she tries to use them, often unsucessfully, like with Falyse Stokeworth or the Kettleblacks).



I just don't think that LF's ultimate goal is to have the Vale. The man has larger ambitions than that. That said, I think his original ambition with the Lannister/Stark infighting plot was to jockey for power, but I think now when he has Sansa, his plans are deviating a bit from their original. Now he doesn't just want power and revenge, he wants to have the dream of his youth come true, i.e. he wants ersatz Catelyn for himself. Which seems to work partly against his original powerplay, as he needs to be very patient to get to the end game, as it were.

Regarding Sansa's power in a marriage with Harry, Harry would be the one with the power in his hands since he would be the lord. Whether or not Sansa and Littlefinger could manipulate him...possibly. But Sansa would only be his lady wife with no real power at all.

As for the annulment, it's in the tapestry shipment!!!

I've never thought that Arya was like Ned.  She resembles the Stark family more than Sansa does, physically.  Arya seems to be very like Lyanna in temperament and looks; didn't Ned remark that Lyanna, like Arya, was wild and wilful?  I think Arya's strong resemblance to Lyanna is one reason Ned is so close to his younger daughter, and to some extent spoils her.  He loved Lyanna, and she died young and traumatically in his arms; and I think Ned wants Arya to have the life and happiness that Lyanna should have lived to enjoy.  

Arya is fierce, impulsive, and loyal.  She also lacks patience; even more than is usual for a child her age; at least at the beginning of the story; patience and self-control are things she does learn.  

Ned is, by all accounts, a good, if not great fighter who is not particularly bloodthirsty (he went to war to support his friend and to get his sister back, as well as avenge his father and brother, not for the fun of it).  As I recall, he was a reasonable tactician/strategist as well.  He is outstanding in his ability to inspire and lead men.  Ned seems to be reflective rather than impulsive; and wants to believe the best of people if they have not previously shown themselves to be dishonorable. And he has a strong streak of compassion - unfortunately to the detriment of common sense when he refused to secure the Queen's children, an action that could have saved his life and that of his retainers and daughters.  

Sansa is definitely Ned's daughter in that she has a compassionate streak (which Arya has as well, though it is being eroded by the horrors she has seen and endured; and Robb has to a certain degree; I don't see it as much in Bran and there's practically none in Rickon, though it could be because he's so little and is also a very angry child due to being abandoned by his parents and Robb) and a tendency to think before she acts, to internalize her dilemmas.  

We don't get much of an idea of what Ned was like at the age of eleven (when we first meet Sansa).  I think he was a quiet boy very much in the shadow of big brother Brandon, perhaps somewhat mature for his age.  Don't forget, he was fostered and raised to young adulthood by Jon Arryn, who also prized honor as a paramount virtue.  

I'm still kind of hoping that Ned's intention of marrying Sansa to someone 'brave, gentle and strong' is a forecast of her eventually marrying Willas Tyrell and being happy with him.  But then again, Robert told Ned to get Sansa a hound, she'd be happier (than with a wolf).  Jaime mentioned his hope that Sansa Stark settles down with a blacksmith and runs an inn under a different name (???Gendry???).   Tyrion noticed that Sansa would make an excellent queen.  And of course, there's the giant-slaying prophecy.  Many different men, and destinies, have been foreshadowed for Sansa Stark; I just hope that none of them include an early death or marriage to a certain mockingbird lord.  

Sansa could indeed become a power in the Eyrie/Vale if she married Harry - if Harry died after siring sons on her.  Then Sansa would be in the same position as her aunt had been (presuming poor SweetRobin is also dead by then); and could appoint Littlefinger as Lord Protector - I am certain that he would have corrupted swayed more Vale-lords to support him by then.  (of course, as I've said before, this scheme is full of holes - Harry and Sansa may hate each other and refuse to become betrothed; and there's also the possibility that they marry and have daughters, not sons; or Sansa will bolt long before the wedding to Harry)

Good post, Lyanna.

[Maroucia]

@ Raksha


Wow, your description of Eddard was perfect.
He was definitely, what we could call, a quiet force.

Arya may share some traits with her father, but she has way too much rage and anger. She has no patience. Remember how she killed that singer from the night’s watch in Bravos (I don’t remember his name). That is something that Ned would have never done in a million years. Of course, the guy deserved some punishment for the way he abandoned Samwell and Maester Aemon, but still…

Sansa is definitely more like Ned than her sister, but to me, Jon is really Eddard’s successor… Even if we learn in the end that he is not truly his son, Jon is really the one that reassembles him the most. Anyway, even if R+L=J turns out to be true, as I suspect, it won’t change my opinion. The person who raises a child is the real parent’s child.

Apart from all that, Sansa does have the compassion, the patience, and the understanding that her father had. Eddard, as I said, was a quiet force. He analyzed the facts and took the time to understand before acting.
He believed in justice and wanted to treat everyone with honour, but he paid the price for it in the end.
I hope that Sansa will be able to emulate all those good ways, but won’t be trapped by them, as her father was.

[Lyanna Stark]

Maroucia, on 04 May 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

@ Raksha


Wow, your description of Eddard was perfect.
He was definitely, what we could call, a quiet force.

Arya may share some traits with her father, but she has way too much rage and anger. She has no patience. Remember how she killed that singer from the night’s watch in Bravos (I don’t remember his name). That is something that Ned would have never done in a million years. Of course, the guy deserved some punishment for the way he abandoned Samwell and Maester Aemon, but still…

Sansa is definitely more like Ned than her sister, but to me, Jon is really Eddard’s successor… Even if we learn in the end that he is not truly his son, Jon is really the one that reassembles him the most. Anyway, even if R+L=J turns out to be true, as I suspect, it won’t change my opinion. The person who raises a child is the real parent’s child.

Apart from all that, Sansa does have the compassion, the patience, and the understanding that her father had. Eddard, as I said, was a quiet force. He analyzed the facts and took the time to understand before acting.
He believed in justice and wanted to treat everyone with honour, but he paid the price for it in the end.
I hope that Sansa will be able to emulate all those good ways, but won’t be trapped by them, as her father was.

I agree, Raksha's descriptions are very good.

I'm not so sure about Jon here though. At first glance he reminds a lot of people of Ned, but I think he does in the same way as Sansa reminds people of Cat (and that's certainly not wrong either).

But I believe someone pointed out in another thread that Jon is prickly and never forgets a slight, very much like Arya. Myself I always saw Jon as very lonely and melancholy as well. Looking at those two traits, I'd say it's very much like his "real" parents" if we assume they are Lyanna and Rhaegar.

That said, I think all the Stark children (including Jon) have very strong links to Ned and are, in their own ways, drawing strength from who he was, what he taught them and the identity he gave them.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 04 May 2012 - 04:24 AM.

[Maroucia]

Lyanna Stark, on 04 May 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

I agree, Raksha's descriptions are very good.

I'm not so sure about Jon here though. At first glance he reminds a lot of people of Ned, but I think he does in the same way as Sansa reminds people of Cat (and that's certainly not wrong either).

But I believe someone pointed out in another thread that Jon is prickly and never forgets a slight, very much like Arya. Myself I always saw Jon as very lonely and melancholy as well. Looking at those two traits, I'd say it's very much like his "real" parents" if we assume they are Lyanna and Rhaegar.

That said, I think all the Stark children (including Jon) have very strong links to Ned and are, in their own ways, drawing strength from who he was, what he taught them and the identity he gave them.

You do get a point on that.
Jon is extremely stubborn, and this is not how Ned’s personality came across.
He seemed open to dialogue and able to understand the point of view of others.
We could definitely see that in his relation with Cathelyn.

The stubbornness seems to be a trait shared by Jon and Arya, and maybe Lyanna, but we didn’t really get to know her, so it’s hard to say for sure.
And Cathelyn was also really stubborn, now that I think about it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Just thought I'd add something about Sansa and her future level of ambition or ruthlessness.

Brash wrote something really good on this in the analysis post regarding this last AFFC chapter about how what is good for Sweetrobin the boy may not be good for Lord Arryn and that Alayne and her "Lord Father" had bigger concerns:

Quote

This appears like a very callous reflection by Sansa, and strictly speaking, it is; but I don’t think it’s meant to portray Sansa/Alayne in a negative manner. Rather, I believe it highlights the danger that we’ve been noting ever since LF took Sansa under “his wing.” LF’s modus operandi is to put political concerns over those of people, and unfortunately, by implicating Sansa in his crimes and letting her know of the grave risks if they should ever be found out, he has managed to seduce her into embracing his vision, one that she now espouses in association with him. I know there’s a belief by some that Maester Coleman didn’t do a good enough job of making Sansa understand the serious threat that the sweetmilk presents to Robert, but I personally don’t agree with this. It’s not a matter of Sansa not caring, but rather that she seems to believe that she can’t afford to care. This perhaps is another pitfall of playing the game and becoming a player: you lose sight of the human costs of your actions, you begin as Sansa does here, to see people as two entities, rather than one, and you make the mistake in thinking that what affects one entity won’t affect the other. A sophisticated player like LF is all too aware of this human cost, and how to expertly exploit it; Sansa is prioritizing the necessity of her survival and unaware just yet that this might be bought with her cousin’s life:

I do think this indicates that Sansa has taken a step towards embracing LF's view on the world as it were, and I think it does indicate that she has become more ruthless and is capable of seeing people as pawns, and as people at the same time. Tyrion and Jon Snow have dealt with similar situations when making difficult decisions (especially Jon with his "Kill the boy and let the man be born") and being forced to divorce themselves from the individuals and insted see them as pieces to be manipulated.

It does not automatically indicate a moral failing, since I don't think making difficult decisions that may involve other people's suffering is necessarily "evil", but it will put her on a path of having to carefully consider her actions and their implications, and whether the cost for her and for other individuals is worth it on a larger scale. I think to be a successful player you need to be aware of this. LF does not really need to bother as much with this, since to him, almost any cost in human suffering is enough since he's cold and ruthless enough not to care, but to people like Sansa, Jon Snow and Tyrion, the cost matters.

Sansa will have to balance Ned's more traditional, honourable and compassionate view of the world with Littlfinger's ruthlessness, goal justifies the means thinking and his more fluid view on morality and tradition.

[Maroucia]

If Sansa wants to have a chance to survive in the game of thrones, she has to understand the ways of the backstabbers that run the game at the moment.
If she is able to do that without betraying everything that her father taught her, no one will be able to stop her.

[Lummel]

There is something of the same thing in ADWD when Tyrion is playing Cyvasse with the customs officer or in the glimpses we get of Doran Martell.  There a difference between perceiving politics as a game (the game of thrones) in which people take the part of pieces and actually treating people as though they are just disposable gaming pieces.

Actually there is something in game theory, a kind of littlefinger / The Ned difference, in that people behave differently depending on if a game is a one off or is repeated.  When there is a longer context people tend to adopt more co-operative strategies.  Everything that Littlefinger does can work - but only in the short term.  Who will trust him after they have already been tricked by him?  Who would rely on him, or who would think that he would deal honestly with them?  On the other hand The Ned is trusted and admired even after death.

[Raksha the Demon]

Lyanna Stark, on 04 May 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Just thought I'd add something about Sansa and her future level of ambition or ruthlessness.

Brash wrote something really good on this in the analysis post regarding this last AFFC chapter about how what is good for Sweetrobin the boy may not be good for Lord Arryn and that Alayne and her "Lord Father" had bigger concerns:



I do think this indicates that Sansa has taken a step towards embracing LF's view on the world as it were, and I think it does indicate that she has become more ruthless and is capable of seeing people as pawns, and as people at the same time. Tyrion and Jon Snow have dealt with similar situations when making difficult decisions (especially Jon with his "Kill the boy and let the man be born") and being forced to divorce themselves from the individuals and insted see them as pieces to be manipulated.

It does not automatically indicate a moral failing, since I don't think making difficult decisions that may involve other people's suffering is necessarily "evil", but it will put her on a path of having to carefully consider her actions and their implications, and whether the cost for her and for other individuals is worth it on a larger scale. I think to be a successful player you need to be aware of this. LF does not really need to bother as much with this, since to him, almost any cost in human suffering is enough since he's cold and ruthless enough not to care, but to people like Sansa, Jon Snow and Tyrion, the cost matters.

Sansa will have to balance Ned's more traditional, honourable and compassionate view of the world with Littlfinger's ruthlessness, goal justifies the means thinking and his more fluid view on morality and tradition.

Ned's downfall shows the peril of putting honor and compassion above all else, even the safety of those who depended on him.  While I will always love him for risking his safety to show compassion and not 'drag frightened children from their beds' when he had the chance to seize Cersei's kids and thus check her counter-attack; Ned should have been more mindful of the needs of his own people, which he could have done without harming Cersei's youngsters, only imprisoning them temporarily with perhaps the younger children's septa/tutor to stay with them.  

" I don't think making difficult decisions that may involve other people's suffering is necessarily "evil"" - I do think it is evil, unless one is making those decisions as a war-leader or king and there is no other way, i.e. one has to fight a battle and kill people to survive.  But Littlefinger and Sansa absolutely do not have to kill Robert Arryn in order to survive.  Littlefinger is lord paramount of the Riverlands, he has other places to go, and wealth, and he can protect Sansa/Alayne without killing an innocent little boy.  Littlefinger plans to kill the boy to gain more power for himself and Sansa; there's no other reason.  Jon Snow had to make difficult decisions because, as commander of the under-staffed Night's Watch during a resurgence of the Others, he was responsible for the Wall and its defense (and that of the South) from the Others, and so he had to come up with strategies to carry out that defense, even if it ruffled traditional feathers.  His decision to swap the babies and send Maester Aemon away was harsh, but not as harsh as allowing Melisandre to burn Mance Rayder's child and probably Maester Aemon as well.  Faced with the burning alive of the baby and the old man, Jon made the difficult decision to break the heart of another baby's mother and send the old man south to what he hoped was a less dangerous fate; knowing that it would still be possible for Gilly to reclaim her true son someday.  Jon seems to be doing a delicate balancing act of having compassion for the people that he feels he must hurt emotionally in order to save lives, theirs or others.  And as a commander, Jon must make difficult decisions that will hurt people, hurt them emotionally or physically or both; decisions that can change lives or take them.

But Sansa has not been earned any rank that entitles her to decide whether Robert Arryn should be frequently dosed with a dangerous medication.  Littlefinger has no right to decide that Robert Arryn must die for Littlefinger's schemes.  So I still feel that Sansa is in great moral danger at the moment, and about to step over a very significant moral line if she continues to condone the treatment of her young cousin.  In her last chapter, I did not see any awareness by Sansa of the cost of continuing to give Robert the sweetmilk, or at least no compunction as to what it would do to him.  And that's disturbing; especially since it's hard to tell if she actually realizes (as she should, the maester and then LF practically spell it out to her) that she is playing Russian Roulette with this little boy's life, or knows on some level and is deceiving herself, hiding the cruel truth from herself.