The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thones House Arryn Tablet & Netbook Skins
House Arryn Tablet & Netbook Skin
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

[Book Spoilers] Melisandre's seduction of King Stannis


  • Please log in to reply
124 replies to this topic

#1 scurvy

scurvy

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 438 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

It is implied in the book that Melisandre and Stannis have sex and the seed results in the shadows - the first of whom looks like Stannis, but if I recall does its damage while Stannis is in a fitful sleep- almost as if it's him under a trance and his soul is doing the deed. The second time it's clearly a birthed shadow that does the deed and Stannis' whereabouts are less relevant.

But, that's not my issue. My issue isn't with the writing off of Selyse and perhaps even Shireen and Patchface (boo). But, it's Melisandre's seduction of Stannis. He wouldn't be moved by the need for a son. Now, the securing of the realm- the destruction of his enemies- his throne... those are things that would motivate Stannis to cast aside his honor and have sex with Melisandre. It would seem that if she could tell him the power of R'hllor and how with his seed she could birth unstoppable assasins to destroy his enemies, well, he would go for it. But, for a son, forget it Stannis would suck it up and live with a daughter with greyscale as his heir.

#2 scurvy

scurvy

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 438 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:05 PM

It is implied in the book that Melisandre and Stannis have sex and the seed results in the shadows - the first of whom looks like Stannis, but if I recall does its damage while Stannis is in a fitful sleep- almost as if it's him under a trance and his soul is doing the deed. The second time it's clearly a birthed shadow that does the deed and Stannis' whereabouts are less relevant.

But, that's not my issue. My issue isn't with the writing off of Selyse and perhaps even Shireen and Patchface (boo). But, it's Melisandre's seduction of Stannis. He wouldn't be moved by the need for a son. Now, the securing of the realm- the destruction of his enemies- his throne... those are things that would motivate Stannis to cast aside his honor and have sex with Melisandre. It would seem that if she could tell him the power of R'hllor and how with his seed she could birth unstoppable assasins to destroy his enemies, well, he would go for it. But, for a son, forget it Stannis would suck it up and live with a daughter with greyscale as his heir.

#3 teemo

teemo

    the swift scout

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,207 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:27 PM

I always was under the impression that it was rather lustless and done only to make shadow babies, with Stannis knowing what he was getting into. With how strict and prickly Stannis is, and how tight Meli and Selyse are, I always imagined her encouraging Stannis to sleep with Meli. Is that weird? The scene didn't feel right to me.

#4 Envie

Envie

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 939 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

I always was under the impression that it was rather lustless and done only to make shadow babies, with Stannis knowing what he was getting into. With how strict and prickly Stannis is, and how tight Meli and Selyse are, I always imagined her encouraging Stannis to sleep with Meli. Is that weird? The scene didn't feel right to me.


No, your imaginings are not weird (unless I'm weird too) because I always had that same exact impression. Though its never said exactly, I always got the impression from Martin's writing and hints that Stannis did the naughty with Melisandre for one purpose only, to create the shadow babies and not because he was lusting after her. Also worth noting, I believe its mentioned more than once in the books that everytime Stannis does this, or gives his blood for one of the scrying in the fire rituals, it weakens him somehow, whether physically or mentally I'm not sure. That's why Melisandre can't do it too often, she is telling someone this. In my mind this made their bizarre sex rituals more mystical and full of sorcery, not just Stannis throwing her on the westeros table and pieces scattering all over the place like they're two lust filled teenagers going at it on the pool table at a frat party. bleh.

#5 livewyre

livewyre

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 92 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:03 PM

I always thought it went down the way it id on the show. Mel seducing stannis implying that it was the will of the lord of light. Stannis doesn't know about the shadows exactly. He remarks that renly's death causes him nightmares and he doesn't know why. I always thought Selyse willingly let stannis have an affair with mel as part of her devotion to the lord of light.

#6 Magjee

Magjee

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 94 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:04 PM

I always was under the impression that it was rather lustless and done only to make shadow babies, with Stannis knowing what he was getting into. With how strict and prickly Stannis is, and how tight Meli and Selyse are, I always imagined her encouraging Stannis to sleep with Meli. Is that weird? The scene didn't feel right to me.


Spot on.

Or maybe were just both weirdos.

#7 Chalais

Chalais

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 284 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:15 PM

I always thought that Selyse was lying to herself about the affair, and purposfully threw herself even further into religious nuttery as part of said self-lying. But it would have been nice if the show was clearer about the fact that Stannis does have a living child, a daughter.

#8 Sci-2

Sci-2

    The 11th Little Indian

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,984 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:36 PM

I always thought it went down the way it id on the show. Mel seducing stannis implying that it was the will of the lord of light. Stannis doesn't know about the shadows exactly. He remarks that renly's death causes him nightmares and he doesn't know why. I always thought Selyse willingly let stannis have an affair with mel as part of her devotion to the lord of light.


I've gone back and forth, but yeah Melis. is hot and supposedly a prophetess. No one on Westeros necessarily knows she's just one sorceress out of many, she's sort of the Red Pope there.

I suspect Stannis enjoys his sex with her, though he rationalizes it in his mind.

It doesn't work perfectly in the show but we'll see how this promise of a son develops. From Stannis's view, if you have a chance to have sex with her, and have a son with the head of a new religion, he could be king after Stannis sets Selyse aside.

#9 teemo

teemo

    the swift scout

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,207 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:39 PM

But if Davos can easily resist her and he has cheated on his wife in the past, what makes anyone think that Stannis couldn't resist her...?? Stannis wants to make brothels illegal, for crying out loud....and that is an extremely out-there idea for someone in Westeros. Maybe he's just a total hypocrite, but I just don't buy them having sex was the consequence of Meli convincing Stannis that his wife is useless and that she can bear him a son....Stannis would not want a bastard son, even if he could legitimize him easily enough.

Edited by dannister, 09 April 2012 - 09:44 PM.


#10 Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:43 PM

I always was under the impression that it was rather lustless and done only to make shadow babies, with Stannis knowing what he was getting into. With how strict and prickly Stannis is, and how tight Meli and Selyse are, I always imagined her encouraging Stannis to sleep with Meli. Is that weird? The scene didn't feel right to me.


I agree. I do believe that gradually he became somewhat more lustful towards Mel, especially after the Blackwater battle when she comforted him IIRC but yeah the first time I don't think he was that lustful.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 09 April 2012 - 09:49 PM.


#11 dtones520

dtones520

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 730 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:44 PM

I've always pictured Stannis as a man who despised his wife for not producing a son, an heir, for him. He is a man of duty, I'd imagine he let the same about his wife. A high lords wife's duty is to produce an heir, sadly. So the fact all he has gotten out of this marriage is a sickly daughter probably makes him pretty annoyed.

So, Melisandre, using the allure of giving him a son, lures him into screwing her. Which makes the shadow baby. I don't think Stannis ever had a clue about them. Or at least the one that kills Renly.

#12 Sci-2

Sci-2

    The 11th Little Indian

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,984 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:46 PM

But if Davos can easily resist her and he has cheated on his wife in the past, what makes anyone think that Stannis couldn't resist her...?? Stannis wants to make brothels illegal, for crying out loud....and that is an extremely out-there idea for someone in Westeros. Maybe he's just a total hypocrite, but I just don't buy them having sex was the consequence of Meli convincing Stannis that his wife is useless and that she can bear him a son....Stannis would not want a bastard son, even if he could legitimize him easily enough.


She's offering him both a kingdom (through her god) and a son. If Stannis wins the Iron Throne the holy order of the Seven will be abolished. Stannis can easily set aside Selyse as Melis. is essentially the Pope of the Red God as far as Westeros will be concerned.

It makes sense, though it is different from the books. But I like these changes as they keep me interested.

#13 unBloodraven

unBloodraven

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 49 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:49 PM

In the TV series though Mel stated that Stannis' wife only gave him stillborns (death) so Shireen doesn't exist, so there was alot more motivation for the hookup with Mel. Either way though now we know for certain now how that shadow demon thing that she released on Storm's End was created. I was kinda looking forward to seeing Patchface oh well....

EDIT: Spelling Correction

Edited by unBloodraven, 09 April 2012 - 10:18 PM.


#14 Pliny

Pliny

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:52 PM

Hmm... My impression was that Stannis doesn't really know what's going on, sex/shadowbabies-wise.

This scene didn't feel right to me, and TV-Melisandre in general doesn't feel right to me. In the show she seems (to me)like an obvious "bad guy," with evil, baddy motivations. In the books, she's a true believer, and thinks what she's doing is right, and she shows compassion to Cressen ("You can still spill the wine").

Also, where is Shireen? I thought she might be kind of important later on, given Val's reaction to her at the Wall.

#15 teemo

teemo

    the swift scout

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,207 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:54 PM

Yeah, I can imagine him becoming more lustful for her over time. I just don't think that's how it started, or that Meli said, "I'll give you a son..." and Stannis just forgets his duty, honor and everything and starts screwing her so that he produces a bastard son ASAP. I think it was something that was definitely more planned than that, and I honestly 100% believe that Selyse knows about it and might even be a instigator.


In the TV series though Mel stated that Stannis' wife only gave him stillborns (death) so Selyse doesn't exist, so there was alot more motivation for the hookup with Mel. Either way though now we know for certain now how that shadow demon thing that she released on Storm's End was created. I was kinda looking forward to seeing Patchface oh well....


She said that his wife didn't give him sons, only stillborns - she didn't say anything about daughters. I think they did this on purpose so they could keep it vague in case maybe they want to change something down the road. 100% ruling out Shireen is pretty harsh..

#16 Envie

Envie

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 939 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:54 PM

In the TV series though Mel stated that Stannis' wife only gave him stillborns (death) so Selyse doesn't exist, so there was alot more motivation for the hookup with Mel.


That's not entirely how it was stated, so you're jumping to conclusions. Melisandre specifically said "Your wife has given you no sons, only stillborns"

I'm fairly certain this was carefully worded so that the possibility of Shireen's existence could still exist. As we well know, like many early European monarchies, sons are the preferred heir to the throne and often daughters are bypassed in favor of a son unless there's no other choice.

Stannis knows Shireen has grayscale and has always been sickly and that his wife has never been hearty in childbirth. He would definitely be motivated by the offer of a son as an heir.

I still don't think it justifies the lusty sex scene, but that's just me.

#17 Envie

Envie

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 939 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:55 PM

She said that his wife didn't give him sons, only stillborns - she didn't say anything about daughters. I think they did this on purpose so they could keep it vague in case maybe they want to change something down the road. 100% ruling out Shireen is pretty harsh..


dannister, we have to stop posting the same thing like this, its starting to creep me out! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#18 Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:56 PM

To me it is all about what is a better character.

I don't like the changes because a man seduced by a woman promising him a son, isn't particularly good character. Nothing particularly special about him. The Stannis of the book on the other hand.

The show Stannis does not come as Iron willed, extremely, extremely determined, not lustful, believing strongly in a moral code, believing strongly in duty, highly bitter and so on. He lacks both the interesting backstory, and other aspects of book Stannis.

I do think that book Stannis is somewhat of a hypocrite in various ways but it discovering or wondering his hypocricy is only fascinating because of the kind of man that Stannis is or mostly is. If in the books we immediately found him having sex for a son, very easilly succumbing to what Melisandre proposes, did not give a strong impression of being very determined, very bitter, very strongly believing in moral codes, duty etc, etc. It wouldn't work. A king that is seduced that easily by Melisandre isn't as fascinating as their relationship in the books. Show Stannis comes of as a quite more bland character and not as interesting as the book version. So yeah that scene is problematic but the lack of sufficient development and backstory previously is also problematic.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 09 April 2012 - 10:03 PM.


#19 teemo

teemo

    the swift scout

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,207 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:57 PM

dannister, we have to stop posting the same thing like this, its starting to creep me out! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />


Hah, I was just thinking the same thing. People must always tell you how smart and perceptive you are all the time, right? /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

#20 Net-Viper X

Net-Viper X

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 594 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:59 PM

I agree with many of you in that I think that Stannis did it for the cause and duty, with no feelings towards lust. I also feel that with his wife being such a fanatic for this religion while Stannis himself seems to take it all with a huge grain of salt, that it would have had to be at the behest of his wife to have sex with Mel for the good of Rhillor and their cause. I don't think Stannis actually believed in the Lord of Light mumbo jumbo enough at that time to have done the sex act on his own because he would have thought it a hoax and would never stain his honor for such. It was his wifes belief rather than his own that ultimately convinced him to go through with it, and once he saw the results, thats when he started to become a believer.

I don't think for a minute that a guy like Stannis would have betrayed his honor for a son, since he would believe that the dishonor he engaged in while creating the child would carry over into that child and the Baratheon name that he carried. I think the only way he would have sex with someone else for a son would be if his wife was totally in on it and pressured him to do so. The fact he has stayed faithful to her all these years despite how obviously miserable he is makes it clear he would never betray their marriage willingly.

Edit: forgot to mention I was speaking of the book in the above mentions, and thought the scene in the movie was off because it didn't mesh with the event as it is presented in the books.

Edited by Net-Viper X, 09 April 2012 - 10:02 PM.