124 replies to this topic

[Envie]

dannister, on 09 April 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Hah, I was just thinking the same thing.  People must always tell you how smart and perceptive you are all the time, right?

Of course! I do enjoy having others with similar views, it just further encourages my opinions! hah.

[Envie]

Net-Viper X, on 09 April 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

I don't think for a minute that a guy like Stannis would have betrayed his honor for a son, since he would believe that the dishonor he engaged in while creating the child would carry over into that child and the Baratheon name that he carried. I think the only way he would have sex with someone else for a son would be if his wife was totally in on it and pressured him to do so. The fact he has stayed faithful to her all these years despite how obviously miserable he is makes it clear he would never betray their marriage willingly.

This is also a good point. As much fuss as Stannis has made over Cersei and her incestuous relations and illegitimate heirs, you would think he would never ever want to tarnish his own image in any way, especially siring bastards on a foreign priestess. I doubt the citizens of Westeros would really take to that so well. I think they made a mistake with this portrayal of Stannis.

[Sci-2]

Oh, I don't think of show-Stannis as even the same person as book-Stannis. Same with Joff, Shae, Cersei, Littlefinger.

I think trying to reconcile these tv-characters with the book versions will be painful and maddening.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

sciborg2, on 09 April 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Oh, I don't think of show-Stannis as even the same person as book-Stannis. Same with Joff, Shae, Cersei, Littlefinger.

I think trying to reconcile these tv-characters with the book versions will be painful and maddening.

Well changes are inevitable but the issue to me is how good of a character the show version is. Which inevitably does lead to some comparisons.

I think Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, Ned and various others are good characters in the show despite possible changes and even with comparing them with book versions and finding that they changed things about some of them.

While in the case of Stannis the show version is to me a pretty worse character than the books is. If they had made changes but he was just as good character even with them, I wouldn't mind but the changes have been detrimental in my view and the show Stannis isn't as good as he could have been with more development/backstory/better portrayal.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 09 April 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Catastrophe]

I didn't care for this scene. It seems like they're really rushing through the whole Stannis/Melisandre/Davos story arc. They're showing all the major plot points, but glossing over all the details that give those events meaning and nuance. It's the equivalent of reading a summary on Wikipedia instead of reading the actual books. If I was a TV viewer who'd never read the books, I'd have no idea what the big deal was about Melisandre's religion, or how it was any different than any of the other religions we keep hearing about in passing. It's completely unclear what kind of deity Melisandre worships, or why Davos and Cressen were so opposed to her, or why Stannis keeps her around.

I also didn't like that they showed the sex scene between Stannis and Melisandre. To me, it worked better as one of those things that was heavily implied but never quite confirmed. Aside from that, it just didn't feel right. If they had to show a Stannis/Melisandre sex scene, I'd rather they made it more clear that Stannis was only "doing his duty" for the power that she promised him. As is, it seems like he secretly wanted to sleep with her the whole time, and went through with it as soon as she gave him the flimsiest of excuses. I also don't like how Melisandre belitted Selyse to him, since in the books Selyse was one of Melisandre's most fervent followers. I'd have prefered it if Stannis slept with Melisandre with Selyse's consent.

Edited by Catastrophe, 09 April 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[Lord Varys]

Mel and Stannis fall in love with each other (at least that's what I believe - it's clear from ADwD that at least Mel has honest feelings for Stannis). But this does not happen before ASoS. It's Mel who comforts Stannis after the Blackwater. Without her he would not have recovered. And they even have sex on a regular basis at the Wall, so I guess Stannis does actually enjoy sex with Melisandre. And I guess she doesn't have cold feet, so that's a plus as well.

But it makes no sense to assume that Stannis would enter into a relationship with Mel because he wants a son. If this was his motivation he would cast aside his wife and marry Mel. But neither the book- nor the TV-Stannis would do such a thing. Not with Shireen still existing, not without Shireen. He is married. But he would never legitimate his own bastard from Mel, so he would either marry her or not take her into his bed (or take on his table).

The promise of justice, the promise of the Iron Throne could move a man like Stannis. But not the promise of a son. Had Stannis truly wanted a son he would have clenched his teeth and shared the bed with Selyse more often. After all, the man knows that to father a son he has to share the bed of his wife.

[atia-]

dtones520, on 09 April 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I've always pictured Stannis as a man who despised his wife for not producing a son, an heir, for him. He is a man of duty, I'd imagine he let the same about his wife. A high lords wife's duty is to produce an heir, sadly. So the fact all he has gotten out of this marriage is a sickly daughter probably makes him pretty annoyed.

But isn't that his fault?  He very rarely even sleeps with her, from what I've read.  Why should he be annoyed with Selyse for that?

Edited by dannister, 09 April 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Sci-2]

dannister, on 09 April 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

But isn't that his fault?  He very rarely even sleeps with her, from what I've read.  Why should he be annoyed with Selyse for that?

Well it seems like show-Stannis did sleep with her a lot, but she kept birthing stillborn sons. I do agree that this show-Stannis is in danger of being less interesting than book-Stannis.

At the same time, it sorta makes sense. In the books do you think Stannis would have agreed to make weird shadow-babies? Or he would have slept with Melis. just because she told him there was a magical ritual that required it?

We may be giving book-Stannis too much credit here.

[Lord Varys]

I guess it would have been better to give Mel and Stannis their first sex scene at Storm's End. As I see it, this is much more likely. Mel might have convinced Stannis that he will get Renly's men at Storm's End, but I'm quite sure he felt really, really bad (and was in need of much 'comforting' the night before the scheduled battle (and the days before that). The scene in episode 2 should have given us the first glimpse about Stannis's next move (i.e. Mel should have mentioned that she has seen that Renly will die). It would have also been good to establish Mel and Davos as antagonists over the next move (attacking KL opposed to attacking Renly).


Mel is not that long 'pregnant' when she gives birth to a shadow (between conceiving and giving birth to the shadow who murdered Ser Cortnay Penrose could not have been more than a few days), so there was actually no rush to hurry intimate Mel-Stannis-scenes.

[BabyMeraxes]

I was not too happy. I liked that nothing has been confirmed with them. Melisandre is being portrayed too much like a person, where as in the books I imagined her to be more of a force. However, I accept it. Mostly because they were almost certainly banging, as Melisandre will soon reveal. Also, this has the potential to make those Shadowbabies fucking RIDICULOUS.

[Honey Badger]

It's a tough one as the books don't really explain it.  The shadow babies Stannis probably doesn't know about since he had that fitful sleep about Renly.  He doesn't seem practical enough to do outright murder, more like he's willing to look the other way as "R'hllor" does his thing through Mel.  I also think Mel is unreliable as she could be a perversion of her religion if Thoros of Myr examined her and was appalled by the shadow babies.  We only have second hand accounts on what counts as piety and what doesn't.

The seduction scene puts to rest the idea that Stannis was drugged or tranced while Mel made her babies.  This looks like outright consensual sex.  The books hint at lack of knowledge on Stannis' part as the creations seem to weaken Stannis' soul or spirit.  But it seems off from what we know of the books.  Stannis is willing to live a hard truth like her fucked up daughter, grinds his teeth in matters of honor, and is noble to fault, similar to Ned.  I don't see him cheating just for a son.  If he was that practical, it would have been easy for him to set aside his current wife, or just raise a bastard or whelp more children using surrogates.  He refuses to do anything "easy" in the books.

[Drinking Cersei's Tears]

Lord Varys, on 09 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

And they even have sex on a regular basis at the Wall

Wha? Is this implied in ADWD?  Must have missed it...

[Elundin]

This entire scene felt oh so wrong. It was completely out of character for Stannis. But that's my take anyway. Its purely television for dummies, so that they can explain stuff that happens down the road.

[Jory]

Lord Varys, on 09 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Mel and Stannis fall in love with each other (at least that's what I believe - it's clear from ADwD that at least Mel has honest feelings for Stannis).

What.... ?

Edited by Jory, 10 April 2012 - 02:03 AM.

[Hear Us Roar]

The stannis we see in the books is when he is with people. When he is alone with Melisandre he is a different guy

[snax]

I haven't been particularly delighted by the Dragonstone scenes, minus the opening one, in general. First off, no creepy little Patchface? Aww...    And the sex scene between Stannis and Melisandre seemed very off and out of character for him. Stannis seems like a deliberative man who will do or endorse something if he finds strong practical value out of it. I never got the impression that he was particularly attracted to Melisandre in a sexual way. However, their fucking right there on the table instead of a more "proper" place like a bed suggests it was a spontaneous act of lust. I just can't see that out of someone like Stannis. But eh, whatever. Nice titties.

Edited by snax, 10 April 2012 - 03:11 AM.

[Andrés Garcia]

I got the impression from the books that Stannis and Mel slept together on more than those occasions where shadow babies were to be produced. One of the things that gave me that impression was Mel's line about her bed being lonely since Stannis left the wall. Did they create shadow babies whilst there?

By the way, how do you get and retain an erection out of a sense of duty and with no lustful feelings whatsoever? I'm not saying it can't be done, but yeah...

[Sixshells]

Like other scenes, it gave me the impression that it was too much, too early, since their relationship only starts off after the Blackwater, in addition to being gratuitous.  Call me naive, but from the books, I didn't even believe sex was needed to make the shadow babies, only that people thought they were using the pretence of private magic rituals to have sex. I was under the impression that they indeed were doing a magic ritual, including drawing some blood and maybe even semen (think about it: you can make a baby as long as you can get you hands on some of that even without sex), as well as Stannis's mystical life energy or whatever. Except that Stannis being more of an opportunity believer and not on the mystical side, he doesn't really believe it works (and Mel probably didn't explain the shadow baby part), but he better try anything he can.
It results as being out of character from the book. It's not the first time, and won't be the last.

[The Bread Viper]

To just highlight how dumb I am I had never made the connection between sexy time with the red priestess and shadow babies. I had picked up the hints that they were getting it on, but always though Stannis too honourable to do that type of thing and that it was simply rumour. Sad there's no patchface but I mean casting and make up would have been a nightmare.

[Isis]

I like Mel much better than Stannis actually. I think she is pretty clear cut as a character in the show. Stannis, though, not so much. He has no defining characteristic/s. I am fine with characters being interpreted differently for the TV show - it's an adaptation. But, I don't know who TV show Stannis is and right now I don't care all that much.

Re. shadow babies. How this was acheived was implicit in the books. Much as I love ambiguity in my fiction it just doesn't work as well in a visual medium. George talked about this at the weekend, that some events which are implicit in the books (like the pies in ADWD) will HAVE to become explicit on the screen otherwise it won't work.

I don't mind the whole Mel and Stannis thing but it's way too early in the course of events and it did nothing to help show us his character. It could have been used to demonstrate him refusing her repeatedly over time before finally giving in. Instead it makes him look weak-willed, unprincipled, wishy-washy...