124 replies to this topic

[Greywolf2375]

Hear Us Roar, on 10 April 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

The stannis we see in the books is when he is with people. When he is alone with Melisandre he is a different guy

No - i disagree.  That is the thing about Stannis - he is not two faced, he is not putting on a show.  He is 100% duty/law/right.  Whomever he is with sees that same person.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

This really felt out of character to me. Stannis just wouldn't throw Mel over the Westeros table and go at it, nor would he be allured by her saying about a son (she should have been clearer or hint more about the shadow babies as well IMO). Stannis would know full well that any real son Mel gave him wouldn't be legitimate either.

Besides this though I love the music for all of Melisandre's scenes

[Lord Varys]

Melisandre ponders in ADwD that 'her bed saw seldom use now that Stannis is away'. Considering the fact that it's also revealed in that chapter that Melisandre does not sleep all that much (only about an hour a night), and that she only slips into sleep while sitting at her hearth, it's obvious that Melisandre only used her bed at Castle Black for sex with Stannis Baratheon.

Also considering the fact that Mel and Stannis did not seem that close at the Wall as they were in ASoS (where Stannis spent practically all his time with Mel wandering through the bowels of Dragonstone and left the ruling business to his Hand Lord Alester Florent and his queen Selyse), we have to accept that Stannis does enjoy sex with Melisandre, or at least the comfort/joy her touch and warmth can give him.

Edited by Lord Varys, 10 April 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Andrés Garcia]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 10 April 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Stannis would know full well that any real son Mel gave him wouldn't be legitimate either.

Being the rightful king, Stannis could legitimize his bastard if he wanted to.

[Andrés Garcia]

Lord Varys, on 10 April 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Melisandre ponders in ADwD that 'her bed saw seldom use now that Stannis is away'. Considering the fact that it's also revealed in that chapter that Melisandre does not sleep all that much (only about an hour a night), and that she only slips into sleep while sitting at her hearth, it's obvious that Melisandre only used her bed at Castle Black for sex with Stannis Baratheon.

Also considering the fact that Mel and Stannis did not seem that close at the Wall as they were in ASoS (where Stannis spent practically all his time with Mel wandering through the bowels of Dragonstone and left the ruling business to his hand Lord Alester Florent and his queen Selyse), we have to accept that Stannis does enjoy sex with Melisandre, or at least the comfort/joy her touch and warmth can give him.

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say.

[Nukelavee]

I actually thought it was a terrible scene.  As in, a series ruiner scene.

I mean, it destroys so many things that make Stannis and Mel's interplay, and role, in the story interesting.

It gave away plot points well in advance of when they should happen, pacing and narrative wise, it's blatant and heavy handed, and, yes, it's not true to the characters.

It wasn't worth the free boobies.

[Lord Varys]

Yes, Stannis could legitimize his bastard by Mel. But would he do that? Would Stannis Baratheon even considering legitimizing his child conceived and born in lust and infidelity? I think not. That's completely out of character. More so, if Stannis truly and desperately longed for a son, he would have had sex with Selyse on a regular basis.

[Tourniquet]

HBO Stannis =/= book Stannis, and its very easy for non-reader viewers to grasp onto the idea that King's need heirs. Plus HBO loves showing nudity and it was probably an easy excuse.

I was very displeased with this scene, as I am a firm believer that Stannis has not slept with Mel in the novels...I don't think that his honor would allow it.

[Artas]

Stannis is not about honour, he's all about duty.

[Vuron]

I don't understand why everyone thinks that Stannis is the poster boy for honor.  Where is his honor when he assassinates his own brother?  We really only get one detailed view of Stannis in the books and that comes from Davos, who just happens to have a man crush and worships Stannis.

[Tourniquet]

I don't think it was dishonorable to kill Renly. Renly had an army and was attempting to take control of the Kingdom. That made him an enemy of Stannis (the "rightful" King). Killing him was no different than if he kill Balon Greyjoy or Robb Stark...

It certainly wasn't nice.But it wasn't dishonorable.

Edited by Tourniquet, 10 April 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[Vuron]

Lord Varys, on 10 April 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Melisandre ponders in ADwD that 'her bed saw seldom use now that Stannis is away'. Considering the fact that it's also revealed in that chapter that Melisandre does not sleep all that much (only about an hour a night), and that she only slips into sleep while sitting at her hearth, it's obvious that Melisandre only used her bed at Castle Black for sex with Stannis Baratheon.

Also considering the fact that Mel and Stannis did not seem that close at the Wall as they were in ASoS (where Stannis spent practically all his time with Mel wandering through the bowels of Dragonstone and left the ruling business to his Hand Lord Alester Florent and his queen Selyse), we have to accept that Stannis does enjoy sex with Melisandre, or at least the comfort/joy her touch and warmth can give him.

Lord Varys is correct.

I don't understand why everyone thinks that Stannis is the poster boy for honor. Where is his honor when he assassinates his own brother? We really only get one detailed view of Stannis in the books and that comes from Davos, who just happens to have a man crush and worships Stannis.

I also don't get how anyone can say that Stannis would never legitimize a bastard with Mel when he had no problem legitimizing Jon and making him Lord of Winterfell to get what he wanted.  As someone said in the other thread, Stannis is all about duty, not honor.

Edited by Vuron, 10 April 2012 - 08:33 AM.

[Tourniquet]

Vuron, on 10 April 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Lord Varys is correct.

I don't understand why everyone thinks that Stannis is the poster boy for honor. Where is his honor when he assassinates his own brother? We really only get one detailed view of Stannis in the books and that comes from Davos, who just happens to have a man crush and worships Stannis.

I also don't get how anyone can say that Stannis would never legitimize a bastard with Mel when he had no problem legitimizing Jon and making him Lord of Winterfell to get what he wanted.  As someone said in the other thread, Stannis is all about duty, not honor.

I can envision a scenario where Stannis is not willingly sharing a bed with Mel. There is the possibility of sorcery being used. However I am a known Stannis apologist so my opinion is very skewed...

[Lord Varys]

Stannis does not assassinate his brother Renly. His conversation with Davos indicates that he does not grasp fully that Melisandre used him (i.e. his semen) to create a being who would kill his brother. He has a hint of the truth, that much is clear, but I very much doubt that Mel went to Stannis saying 'Fuck with me, and I'll create a shadow creature looking like you who we can use to assassinate your traitor brother'. Stannis knew Renly would die when they had their last parley, his ultimatum revealed as much, but I doubt that he gave the explicit command to kill Renly. I rather believe Mel painted the whole thing as R'hllor enacting his will.

But I'm not naive. Stannis wanted Renly to die. And, in my opinion, he has no reason to regret it. Renly was a traitor, he betrayed Robert, 'Robert's children', and Stannis. His life was forfeit by all the laws of gods and men in Westeros. Kinship means nothing if you rebel against your rightful liege lord/king. Any lord/king would put his younger brother/son/sister to the sword if they plotted against him and tried to steal his crown/lordship/castle.

[wolverine]

Didn't like the scene.  Seemed unlikely and maybe required more build up if they wanted to show it.

I hate hearing Patchface in the books and don't care at all if he is absent from the show.

[Sci-2]

I'm just curious, for people who think Stannis was honorable in the books, how exactly Mel got him to sleep with her to make the shadow babies.

Because I suspect she told him pretty much what she tells him in the show, that he has to sleep with her. And yes Stannis has honor, but he also has no love, attraction, or respect for his wife. If your new Pope is undeniably hot, and you never loved your wife as you were matched for politics, and she says to be one with God you have to have sex with me...

Seems like many, if not most, would give in.

[Tourniquet]

sciborg2, on 10 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

I'm just curious, for people who think Stannis was honorable in the books, how exactly Mel got him to sleep with her to make the shadow babies.

She is a sorceress after-all. If she can birth shadowbabies and glamour men to look like other men and protect herself from poisons and see the future in fires, I think she would have the power to trick someone into sleeping with her...

[Lady Meera Reed]

Although it could've been more subtle, I have no problem with HBO showing Stannis & Mel have sex.
What I didn't like is the "reason". A son for an heir, really? That makes no sense. He already accepted that Shireen is his heir (as he told Ser Massey). This was so OOC not only for Stannis, but also for Melisandre. Now they both look like this one dimensional character with no mystery or ambiguity. I hate show!Stannis so far .. *clutches books*

Andrés Garcia, on 10 April 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Being the rightful king, Stannis could legitimize his bastard if he wanted to.

He could, but then he should've banged another woman years ago if he was so desperate for a son.
I would've preferred it if show!Mel's reason was "I've seen it in the fires, this is what the Lord of Light requires for the realm" or something like that. At least it will still have mystery. It will show her dedication to R'hllor, & Stannis' dedication to his duty.

Artas, on 10 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Stannis is not about honour, he's all about duty.

Exactly. Ned = honor, Stannis = duty.
"Honor, he called it. Well, honor has its costs, as Lord Eddard learned to his sorrow..." - King Stannis

[Lady Octarina]

To me, his nights with Melisandre were probably motivated by her convincing him that was necessary to secure him the throne too. On the other hand, it's not absurd to think that she could have convinced him by claiming she would give him a son, like in episode 2.02. I mean, Selyse never was able to give him one, probably won't be able now, we don't even know if Shireen exists on the show, but if she does she's the same sickly child with little chances of surviving as in the books. A king needs an heir; if he needed to have sex with Melisandre to have a male heir (a bastard, okay, but he could legitimize the child), so be it, I doubt Stannis would have anything against the idea. Also, it would explain why hey keep having sex even after Stannis can't produce more shadow babies (not that lust is not reason enough, but Stannis is the kind of man who needs to be convinced that he's doing that for duty, not pleasure).

That said, I must say I simply loved that scene. That was when Carice van Houten was finally able to convince me as Melisandre; and Dillane's Stannis was so properly awkward that I can barely describe how much fun I had watching it.

[Jerritus]

I figured the son she promised was the shadowbaby Mel (and Stannis) use to kill Renly.