88 replies to this topic

[Greywolf2375]

hoelk, on 10 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I dont wanna sound like a troll, but bave you actually read the books? From what I remember every single chapter ends of a cheap cliffhanger.

So then why make one up?  There is plenty going on with the story as it's written to have suspense at the end of every episode.  Honestly, with what Craster saw Jon see - there is no reason for Jon to not be dead at this point.  Knock him out to drag him back to Mormont and tell him...what?

Mormont knows (or, well in this universe maybe he doesn't) that Craster has been giving his sons...and doesn't care as it's none of his business.

[David Selig]

hoelk, on 10 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I dont wanna sound like a troll, but bave you actually read the books? From what I remember every single chapter ends of a cheap cliffhanger.

This. OK, it's not at the end of every single chapter, but there are so many of those.

If anything, the show has been much better at avoiding cheap cliffhangers than the books.

Edited by David Selig, 10 April 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[The Unborn]

Maybe as soon as Craster hit John, Ghost jumped on him. We'll see in 5 days I guess

[Songlian]

hoelk, on 10 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I dont wanna sound like a troll, but bave you actually read the books? From what I remember every single chapter ends of a cheap cliffhanger.

Don't worry, no troll labeling will happen on this side. And yes, of course I read the books. If nothing else, my avatar should have made you think.

As to your answer, Greywolf2375 already explained rather well part of my problem with it:

Greywolf2375, on 10 April 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

So then why make one up?  There is plenty going on with the story as it's written to have suspense at the end of every episode.  Honestly, with what Craster saw Jon see - there is no reason for Jon to not be dead at this point.  Knock him out to drag him back to Mormont and tell him...what?

The rest of it stands like this: I just don't buy it. GRRM's cliffhangers are so good because they are believable and carry weight to the story. This one doesn't. What am I supposed to fear or be curious about, that they pull a Rakharo on Jon? I know it isn't going to happen. So then, what's the point? Just a bit of drama added on top of the plenty enough drama.

As always, this is just my opinon. If you enjoyed it and thought it was a great tv moment, I'm sincerely glad for you. It's supposed to be enjoyed, after all.

[TheMountainThatAbides]

I have to say I wasn't too fond of this particular scene either but as some have already pointed out I'm going to wait for the third episode before really judging.

[Tourniquet]

My g/f (non-reader) had no idea who was talking the baby and she is an avid watcher of the show...I had to explain.

[Lord of Cheese]

Greywolf2375, on 10 April 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

So then why make one up?  There is plenty going on with the story as it's written to have suspense at the end of every episode.  Honestly, with what Craster saw Jon see - there is no reason for Jon to not be dead at this point.  Knock him out to drag him back to Mormont and tell him...what?

Mormont knows (or, well in this universe maybe he doesn't) that Craster has been giving his sons...and doesn't care as it's none of his business.

Yep. I dont really understand what comes next. If i was Craster i would kill Jon, and not just knock him out. Then blame it on wildlings. No fight is supposed to happen at this stage. Really odd....

[Tourniquet]

He could attempt to kill him and Jon can be saved by Ghost or Sam. Or Craster means to blackmail him knowing that Mormont knows and doesn't care what he is doing.

[wolverine]

Tourniquet, on 10 April 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

My g/f (non-reader) had no idea who was talking the baby and she is an avid watcher of the show...I had to explain.

There is no reason the audience HAS to know now that an Other took the baby.  They can find out next episode or whatever.  Maybe they don't want the audience to know for sure already.

[Tourniquet]

wolverine, on 10 April 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

There is no reason the audience HAS to know now that an Other took the baby.  They can find out next episode or whatever.  Maybe they don't want the audience to know for sure already.

Fair enough!

[bloodymime]

My own thought was that they could be wanting to give Jon a more noble reason for deserting. Being disgusted with a bunch of timid crows that allows a man to sacrifice babies on their watch sounds a bit better than whining to Mance about where they sat the bastard at Robert's feast.

[Francis Buck]

Honestly I think they put this scene in for one reason, and one reason only: The Others do not appear in the second book whatsoever, and this is the most logical place to put them. I believe the showrunners felt it would seem really weird for non-book readers that, despite all the talk last season of how the White Walkers were returning and how huge of threat they are, if suddenly they just don't appear even a single time this entire season. It would lessen their impact, and make them seem like less of an issue. Everything else about the sequence was simply a way to make that happen. Personally I have no problem with it at all.

[Greywolf2375]

Tourniquet, on 10 April 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

He could attempt to kill him and Jon can be saved by Ghost or Sam. Or Craster means to blackmail him knowing that Mormont knows and doesn't care what he is doing.

Blackmail into what though?  And with what?

My comment above is based on Craster knocking him out for his own purposes.  I spose they could wrap it that Craster was hitting him to save him from the Other in the manner that not having a weapon in Predator meant it would leave you alone - "See, I'm taking him away so he doesn't bother you and wrapping him on the head will make him forget he saw a 7 foot tall monster with blue eyes take one of my sons."

[Battlekitten]

Tourniquet, on 10 April 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

My g/f (non-reader) had no idea who was talking the baby and she is an avid watcher of the show...I had to explain.

I am a reader and I wouldn't have known.  It is so dark and I just think I saw the baby and then a rather furry humanoid figure moving about before it cut to Jon.  Could have been big foot! If anyone has stills showing the Other I would be much obliged.

I only wonder: in the books the Watch know Craster sacrifices his sons, but do they know it is to White Walkers specifically and in fact?  After all human sacrifice was practiced in the North (vide: heart trees) and the Watch knows practically nothing about White Walkers.  They are a legend.  If they had known Craster sacrificed to them today they would be a lot more real surely?  At the time of the books they find out WW are about again or at least that wights are but they don't make the link with Craster?  Or they do but leave it alone since he is too important to the NW?

So, in the TV series if the Watch find out Craster specifically sacrificed to White Walkers (Jon sees one) surely all bets should be off and they should not let it continue or at least try and find out something more about this true threat.  It ought to become more important than the Wildlings and it would in itself explain the Wildlings absence.  If not it's a travesty of all they, the NW, are supposed to stand for.

In the preview for Episode 3
SPOILER

There is a shadowed figure and ice cracking or perhaps just snow underfoot.  Then Craster appears clutching Jon's sword and says "Out all of you and you will make this right"

What on earth is going on?  I would suspect all hell breaks loose at Craster's Keep as jon / Ghost disrupted the sacrifice but maybe it's my overactive imagination

[Crown]

I don't know if I like it or not, but yeah, had to explain the blue-eyes to my other aswell. Yes, I watch it with my mother.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

I liked the Other being there, I wasn't a fan of Craster discovering Jon.

[Morrigan]

The glowing blue eyes wasn't a big sign of obviousness? Huh. I guess it's hard for me to imagine  knowing, but still, I thought I'd recognize the dark, gaunt, blue-eyed figure from the S1 beginning if I were a non-reader. But maybe I'd have missed it, I dunno.

I thought the cliffhanger was a bit dumb because, as someone said, we know Jon's gonna be ok, so the suspense is fake, and I'm really sick of the blow-to-the-head-insta-KO cliché. It's probably the most overused trope in fiction, really, and I know I sound like a nerd (irony considering these boards ) but it doesn't work like that in real life, grr! It's lazy writing; the writers need to render a character unconscious, but can't think of any other way so they use the blow to the head. Meh. Anyway, it's not a huge deal or anything, but I wish that cliché wouldn't be used that much.

My prediction is that Jon will wake up groggy, and try to tell Mormont what he saw, but Craster will call him a liar and say he was just dreaming. Or something. But it will still arouse suspicions in the NW, perhaps someone will ask "what happened to that heavily pregnant girl that was around" (not that we saw any... but eh) and Craster will say it was stillborn and he was just burying the body in the woods, but then the NW people will start muttering, and Craster will tell them to leave. The NW will leave but resentfully, foreshadowing the mutiny that will inevitably happen later.

Edited by Morrigan, 10 April 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Dragon greyscale]

Songlian, on 10 April 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

The rest of it stands like this: I just don't buy it. GRRM's cliffhangers are so good because they are believable and carry weight to the story. This one doesn't. What am I supposed to fear or be curious about, that they pull a Rakharo on Jon? I know it isn't going to happen. So then, what's the point? Just a bit of drama added on top of the plenty enough drama.

Do you think Jon is dead in tWOW? Did grrm pull a rakharo on Jon there? The "cheapness" of a cliffhanger is really difficult to establish if you're using book hindsight for the tv show.
BTW, I have to disagree with you on the quality of all of GRRM's cliffhangers. Before and during the red wedding they were great. After the red wedding there have been too many faux-deaths, to the extent that death has become meaningless.
That said, I don't think Jon's life is supposed to be at stake here. The built tension is the consequence of Craster finding out Jon spied on him.  We've seen him as a reluctant host and Jon's shennenagans will probably piss him off even more. What will it mean for the NW? That's what viewers are wondering.

Edited by Dragon greyscale, 10 April 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Maester Murks]

Greywolf2375, on 10 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

My comment above is based on Craster knocking him out for his own purposes.  I spose they could wrap it that Craster was hitting him to save him from the Other in the manner that not having a weapon in Predator meant it would leave you alone - "See, I'm taking him away so he doesn't bother you and wrapping him on the head will make him forget he saw a 7 foot tall monster with blue eyes take one of my sons."

I was thinking the same. Maybe Craster wants to stop Jon from doing something very stupid, like fighting the Other. Craster obviously knows more about them than Jon, so he assumes Jon has no idea what he's up against. Also, some guy attacking an Other near Crasters place could have bad consequences for him as well. I don't think he wants to cover up the sacrifice of the boy, because he plainly doesn't give a shit about what Mormont/the Watch thinks...

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Didn't the WW/Other's "talking" in that ice-cracking speech (just prior to the reveal) give it away?  That was a surer sign than the blue eyes, which were only glimpsed briefly.