Melisandre's Powers

[Drowned Priest]

I am confused on the subject of Melisandre's power. In ACoK she survives an extremely potent poison. She also births two shadows of Stannis. One kills Renly and the other kills Ser Cortnay. Then in ASoS we learn that her power to divine the future is only strong when it concerns her own well being. In ADwD she reveals that she uses powders to manipulate fires and cannot do it on her own. The other red priests introduced in the series seem to have much more powerful magic than she does.

We know that the rebirth of dragons in the world has made magic, particularly fire magic, much more powerful (alchemists guild making wildfire more easily and making deadlier variants, the performer in Qarth, Moqorro and Benerro displaying impressive command of flames). When you consider just how weak Melisandre's fire magic is in a world with dragons, it makes her look like a weakling despite the fact that she created those two shadows.

It got me thinking. Were the shadows the creation of some other, darker magic. She is from Asshai, so she may be a shadowbinder like Quaithe. If so, then why did she claim that the shadows had to do with R'hllor? Was she just bleating her pious nonsense? She claimed that the wall made her more powerful, but the wall is ice. This all points to some darker magic that has nothing to do with R'hllor. More evidence towards her weakness as a red priest is her idiotic belief that Stannis is Azor Ahai. What do you guys think about this? (Feel free to also discuss religion in general because the series introduces so many, and they all have some power in their own rights)

[Ghost714]

I am confused on the subject of Melisandre's power. In ACoK she survives an extremely potent poison. She also births two shadows of Stannis. One kills Renly and the other kills Ser Cortnay. Then in ASoS we learn that her power to divine the future is only strong when it concerns her own well being. In ADwD she reveals that she uses powders to manipulate fires and cannot do it on her own. The other red priests introduced in the series seem to have much more powerful magic than she does.

We know that the rebirth of dragons in the world has made magic, particularly fire magic, much more powerful (alchemists guild making wildfire more easily and making deadlier variants, the performer in Qarth, Moqorro and Benerro displaying impressive command of flames). When you consider just how weak Melisandre's fire magic is in a world with dragons, it makes her look like a weakling despite the fact that she created those two shadows.

It got me thinking. Were the shadows the creation of some other, darker magic. She is from Asshai, so she may be a shadowbinder like Quaithe. If so, then why did she claim that the shadows had to do with R'hllor? Was she just bleating her pious nonsense? She claimed that the wall made her more powerful, but the wall is ice. This all points to some darker magic that has nothing to do with R'hllor. More evidence towards her weakness as a red priest is her idiotic belief that Stannis is Azor Ahai. What do you guys think about this? (Feel free to also discuss religion in general because the series introduces so many, and they all have some power in their own rights)

I disagree with your analysis of Melisandre, she is much more powerful than you give her credit for.

Not only did Mel make two killer shadow babies, but she also was able to do other stuff. She killed Orel's eagle, causing it to burst into flames from the inside, which then caused Varamyr Six Skins to go crazy, loosing control of all his beasts, and he was arguably the strongest Warg of his time. Mel also pulled off many very successful glamors, she made thousands believe that Rattleshirt was Mance Rayder, and she was able to maintain that glamor, despite Rattleshirt burning alive, causing Mel tremendous pain. Some other glamors would be, Mance Rayder looking like Rattleshirt, and Stannis's sword looking like Lightbringer. There are also those who believe that Mel has glamored her own appearance. Another testimony of Mel's powers, is the fact that she hardly needs to eat or sleep anymore. Mel has also suggested that she could show Jon how to embrace his Warg abilities.

I also disagree with your opinion about Mel only being able to see harm to her own person, when looking into her flames. Mel saw the deaths off Robb, Joffrey, and Balon Greyjoy. Some more examples are, the three dead Rangers missing their eyes, and Jon's assasignation. So many people think that Mel is so bad at reading her flames, because she has gotten a few things wrong, but that should not mean that people should forget all the things Mel has gotten right. A girl on a dying horse, fleeing a marriage, coming to Jon for help... I mean come on, Mel should not be faulted for getting that one wrong, especially because she saw that in her flames, right after Jon gets a letter saying Ramsey is to marry "Arya". It's not like the flames say the names of the people in them. All the visions Mel has gotten wrong have been extremely cryptic.

I also think its a little premature to say that Mel has not become stronger by being at the Wall. The Wall is not just Ice, and Mel explains that very well in ASoS. She explains that there is great magic locked deep within the ice of the Wall. We know this is true, because the Others/Wights can't go through the Wall on their own. Also the Wall has shown to defend itself. Mel also thinks In her POV chapter, that now she no longer needs to rely on powders or alchemist tricks, now that she is at the Wall, she can do those things with spells alone now. I believe she also thinks about not needing to sleep or eat much, now that she is at the Wall.

So I think it is safe to assume that this big source of powerful magic, would amplify Mel's own magic abilities, and I personally believe we will see more of Mel's enhanced powers in the future story.

And I truly believe that Mel really did see Stannis as Azor Ahai in her flames, because that was R'hllor wanting Mel to follow Stannis, so Mel could then be lead to Jon, the real Azor Ahai. So I do not hold it against Mel for thinking Stannis is Azor Ahai, because I believe at first the flames pointed towards Stannis as Azor Ahai, as a way of getting Mel to Jon.

[THE INDIGO]

^^^ THAT HE/SHE SAID!

[Silmarien]

I disagree with your analysis of Melisandre, she is much more powerful than you give her credit for.

Not only did Mel make two killer shadow babies, but she also was able to do other stuff. She killed Orel's eagle, causing it to burst into flames from the inside, which then caused Varamyr Six Skins to go crazy, loosing control of all his beasts, and he was arguably the strongest Warg of his time. Mel also pulled off many very successful glamors, she made thousands believe that Rattleshirt was Mance Rayder, and she was able to maintain that glamor, despite Rattleshirt burning alive, causing Mel tremendous pain. Some other glamors would be, Mance Rayder looking like Rattleshirt, and Stannis's sword looking like Lightbringer. There are also those who believe that Mel has glamored her own appearance. Another testimony of Mel's powers, is the fact that she hardly needs to eat or sleep anymore. Mel has also suggested that she could show Jon how to embrace his Warg abilities.

I also disagree with your opinion about Mel only being able to see harm to her own person, when looking into her flames. Mel saw the deaths off Robb, Joffrey, and Balon Greyjoy. Some more examples are, the three dead Rangers missing their eyes, and Jon's assasignation. So many people think that Mel is so bad at reading her flames, because she has gotten a few things wrong, but that should not mean that people should forget all the things Mel has gotten right. A girl on a dying horse, fleeing a marriage, coming to Jon for help... I mean come on, Mel should not be faulted for getting that one wrong, especially because she saw that in her flames, right after Jon gets a letter saying Ramsey is to marry "Arya". It's not like the flames say the names of the people in them. All the visions Mel has gotten wrong have been extremely cryptic.

I also think its a little premature to say that Mel has not become stronger by being at the Wall. The Wall is not just Ice, and Mel explains that very well in ASoS. She explains that there is great magic locked deep within the ice of the Wall. We know this is true, because the Others/Wights can't go through the Wall on their own. Also the Wall has shown to defend itself. Mel also thinks In her POV chapter, that now she no longer needs to rely on powders or alchemist tricks, now that she is at the Wall, she can do those things with spells alone now. I believe she also thinks about not needing to sleep or eat much, now that she is at the Wall.

So I think it is safe to assume that this big source of powerful magic, would amplify Mel's own magic abilities, and I personally believe we will see more of Mel's enhanced powers in the future story.

And I truly believe that Mel really did see Stannis as Azor Ahai in her flames, because that was R'hllor wanting Mel to follow Stannis, so Mel could then be lead to Jon, the real Azor Ahai. So I do not hold it against Mel for thinking Stannis is Azor Ahai, because I believe at first the flames pointed towards Stannis as Azor Ahai, as a way of getting Mel to Jon.

:agree:

[nixiepoo]

I disagree with your analysis of Melisandre, she is much more powerful than you give her credit for.

Not only did Mel make two killer shadow babies, but she also was able to do other stuff. She killed Orel's eagle, causing it to burst into flames from the inside, which then caused Varamyr Six Skins to go crazy, loosing control of all his beasts, and he was arguably the strongest Warg of his time. Mel also pulled off many very successful glamors, she made thousands believe that Rattleshirt was Mance Rayder, and she was able to maintain that glamor, despite Rattleshirt burning alive, causing Mel tremendous pain. Some other glamors would be, Mance Rayder looking like Rattleshirt, and Stannis's sword looking like Lightbringer. There are also those who believe that Mel has glamored her own appearance. Another testimony of Mel's powers, is the fact that she hardly needs to eat or sleep anymore. Mel has also suggested that she could show Jon how to embrace his Warg abilities.

I also disagree with your opinion about Mel only being able to see harm to her own person, when looking into her flames. Mel saw the deaths off Robb, Joffrey, and Balon Greyjoy. Some more examples are, the three dead Rangers missing their eyes, and Jon's assasignation. So many people think that Mel is so bad at reading her flames, because she has gotten a few things wrong, but that should not mean that people should forget all the things Mel has gotten right. A girl on a dying horse, fleeing a marriage, coming to Jon for help... I mean come on, Mel should not be faulted for getting that one wrong, especially because she saw that in her flames, right after Jon gets a letter saying Ramsey is to marry "Arya". It's not like the flames say the names of the people in them. All the visions Mel has gotten wrong have been extremely cryptic.

I also think its a little premature to say that Mel has not become stronger by being at the Wall. The Wall is not just Ice, and Mel explains that very well in ASoS. She explains that there is great magic locked deep within the ice of the Wall. We know this is true, because the Others/Wights can't go through the Wall on their own. Also the Wall has shown to defend itself. Mel also thinks In her POV chapter, that now she no longer needs to rely on powders or alchemist tricks, now that she is at the Wall, she can do those things with spells alone now. I believe she also thinks about not needing to sleep or eat much, now that she is at the Wall.

So I think it is safe to assume that this big source of powerful magic, would amplify Mel's own magic abilities, and I personally believe we will see more of Mel's enhanced powers in the future story.

And I truly believe that Mel really did see Stannis as Azor Ahai in her flames, because that was R'hllor wanting Mel to follow Stannis, so Mel could then be lead to Jon, the real Azor Ahai. So I do not hold it against Mel for thinking Stannis is Azor Ahai, because I believe at first the flames pointed towards Stannis as Azor Ahai, as a way of getting Mel to Jon.

You do realize that you have affectively ended this thread? :bowdown:

[Turkey Jack]

I am confused on the subject of Melisandre's power. In ACoK she survives an extremely potent poison. She also births two shadows of Stannis. One kills Renly and the other kills Ser Cortnay. Then in ASoS we learn that her power to divine the future is only strong when it concerns her own well being. In ADwD she reveals that she uses powders to manipulate fires and cannot do it on her own. The other red priests introduced in the series seem to have much more powerful magic than she does.

She is definitely a shadow binder but how that relates to R'hllor is not yet clear, shadows being agents of light and most of the cities of Essos following the lord of fire makes sense.

As for surviving the poison I suspect maester Pylos had a hand in that tipping her off and giving her an antidote.

[namtose]

She is definitely a shadow binder but how that relates to R'hllor is not yet clear, shadows being agents of light and most of the cities of Essos following the lord of fire makes sense.

As for surviving the poison I suspect maester Pylos had a hand in that tipping her off and giving her an antidote.

I agree that Mel is an able magician and shadowbinder. It appears that the basis of her magic is blood magic (the need for blood of kings to perform her magic.) The appearence of Stannis as reported by Davos to be pale and weak looking before the shadows kill Renley and the master at Storms End. The use of leaches with Robert's bastard sons blood for the spell on the three kings. Through out the books the power of blood magic is pretty well established but I'm not convinced as yet of the power of fire magic except in regard to prophecy. All the other fire magic seen in the books are tricks either by use of glamour or wildfyre in the case of Theros.

I'm convinced in the power of the old gods, wargs, greenseers and the magic of the wall which extended the life of Aemon, prevents the white walkers, etc and with the horn maybe dragons (and the hint that weirwood can kill dragons.) The power of the seven and R'hllor is still be be determined.

[The guy from the Vale]

I agree that Mel is an able magician and shadowbinder. It appears that the basis of her magic is blood magic (the need for blood of kings to perform her magic.) The appearence of Stannis as reported by Davos to be pale and weak looking before the shadows kill Renley and the master at Storms End. The use of leaches with Robert's bastard sons blood for the spell on the three kings. Through out the books the power of blood magic is pretty well established but I'm not convinced as yet of the power of fire magic except in regard to prophecy. All the other fire magic seen in the books are tricks either by use of glamour or wildfyre in the case of Theros.

I'm convinced in the power of the old gods, wargs, greenseers and the magic of the wall which extended the life of Aemon, prevents the white walkers, etc and with the horn maybe dragons (and the hint that weirwood can kill dragons.) The power of the seven and R'hllor is still be be determined.

Thoros' burning sword in KL was a trick, but Dondarrion's sword when fighting the Hound was real. Similarly, Thoros thinks of his revival ceremony as a fire ritual, not blood magic. Beric's sword also required blood, though, so I don't think it's easy (or even possible?) to divide blood and fire magic in two neat camps. They seem to be pretty intertwined ("Fire and Blood", anyone?)

[Ghost714]

I agree that Mel is an able magician and shadowbinder. It appears that the basis of her magic is blood magic (the need for blood of kings to perform her magic.) The appearence of Stannis as reported by Davos to be pale and weak looking before the shadows kill Renley and the master at Storms End. The use of leaches with Robert's bastard sons blood for the spell on the three kings. Through out the books the power of blood magic is pretty well established but I'm not convinced as yet of the power of fire magic except in regard to prophecy. All the other fire magic seen in the books are tricks either by use of glamour or wildfyre in the case of Theros.

I'm convinced in the power of the old gods, wargs, greenseers and the magic of the wall which extended the life of Aemon, prevents the white walkers, etc and with the horn maybe dragons (and the hint that weirwood can kill dragons.) The power of the seven and R'hllor is still be be determined.

I don't think Mel needs blood to perform magic, I just think Maester Aemon was right, when saying there is power in Kings blood. So Kings blood amplifies Mel's magic, like it would any magic.

Davos said Stannis looked ten years older, since last he had seen him, which was before Mel made the shadows that killed Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose. I never got the impression that Mel was taking Stannis's blood. It appears that sex is required to make a shadow, and I always got the impression that making those shadows drained life from Stannis, not blood, hence why he looked like he had aged ten years, in a short period of time.

I do think it's curios though, that you don't believe there is any evidence of "fire magic", I don't know how you think it's all tricks. When Thoros of Myr performed the last rights ceremony on Beric, when Beric died, Thoros gave Beric the customary kiss of fire. Normally that kiss does nothing, but in Beric's case, he was ressurected. If Warging is proof of the Old gods in your opinion, I do not see how that Kiss of Fire is not proof of R'hllor. In my opinion, that's proof of R'hllor anyway, what ever it was though, it sure as hell was not a "trick" or "glamor". Same goes for Moqurro healing Victarion's arm, that was no trick either, and certainly not a glamor. When Mel made Orel's eagle burst into flames, while being in mid air, I would not call that a trick either. There is also nothing tricksy about those shadows, nor reading the visions in the flames, sent by R'hllor. I also don't think there was any tricks involved in Mel surviving the poison from Maester Cressen, obviously I disagree with the post that said Mel was tipped off by Maester Pylos, and she took an "antidote". Is there even an antidote for the Strangler? And if so, how did Maester Pylos know that Maester Cressen would try and use it on Mel?

I also don't see what trick could be involved in Mel staying Warm at the Wall, despite wearing silk and stuff.

I personally think there is more proof to support R'hllor and fire magic, then there is with any other gods. However, I do agree that the Old gods seem to have some power, and I believe they are real in the story. The only gods that seem to be fake, or powerless, are the Seven IMO.

[Lady Hodor]

She may be something we have never heard of, maybe a new kind of shadowbinder even stronger than Quaithe?

Though we never saw Quaithe give birth to shadows, she only spurted out weird prophecies and warnings.

But the whole "see into the future" thing seems an element of those from Asshai, dont you think?

[LuisDantas]

It is interesting that Melisandre thinks of herself as a supreme seer among the Red Priests in her POV, yet Moqorro at least seems to be far more skilled.

[namtose]

I don't think Mel needs blood to perform magic, I just think Maester Aemon was right, when saying there is power in Kings blood. So Kings blood amplifies Mel's magic, like it would any magic.

Davos said Stannis looked ten years older, since last he had seen him, which was before Mel made the shadows that killed Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose. I never got the impression that Mel was taking Stannis's blood. It appears that sex is required to make a shadow, and I always got the impression that making those shadows drained life from Stannis, not blood, hence why he looked like he had aged ten years, in a short period of time.

I do think it's curios though, that you don't believe there is any evidence of "fire magic", I don't know how you think it's all tricks. When Thoros of Myr performed the last rights ceremony on Beric, when Beric died, Thoros gave Beric the customary kiss of fire. Normally that kiss does nothing, but in Beric's case, he was ressurected. If Warging is proof of the Old gods in your opinion, I do not see how that Kiss of Fire is not proof of R'hllor. In my opinion, that's proof of R'hllor anyway, what ever it was though, it sure as hell was not a "trick" or "glamor". Same goes for Moqurro healing Victarion's arm, that was no trick either, and certainly not a glamor. When Mel made Orel's eagle burst into flames, while being in mid air, I would not call that a trick either. There is also nothing tricksy about those shadows, nor reading the visions in the flames, sent by R'hllor. I also don't think there was any tricks involved in Mel surviving the poison from Maester Cressen, obviously I disagree with the post that said Mel was tipped off by Maester Pylos, and she took an "antidote". Is there even an antidote for the Strangler? And if so, how did Maester Pylos know that Maester Cressen would try and use it on Mel?

I also don't see what trick could be involved in Mel staying Warm at the Wall, despite wearing silk and stuff.

I personally think there is more proof to support R'hllor and fire magic, then there is with any other gods. However, I do agree that the Old gods seem to have some power, and I believe they are real in the story. The only gods that seem to be fake, or powerless, are the Seven IMO.

The point I'm trying to make is that so far in the books there is strong evidence that blood magic works. That form of magic seems to cross various religions and individuals, Mirri Maz Duur and Mel both were trained in Asshai which seems to be the center of magic learning. Fire magic, I'm just not sure about. It appears to require a lot of human sacrifice for pretty meagre gains. I admit that Thoros' last right breath of fire surprised both him and me. Thoros admitted that that's not how it is supposed to work. Iis this due to the comet, the dragon, don't know. Mel does use fire magic on Orell's eagle and there is other possible examples.

I'm just not sure how powerful the R'hllor religion is based on the various practioners versus just a general increase in the effectiveness of all magic. The appearence of the direwolves before the comet and dragons indicate to me the possiblity that something else is causing the rise of magic in the GRRM world. I guess you can put me down as R'hllor agnostic rather than a R'hllor denier.

[Greywolf2375]

As for surviving the poison I suspect maester Pylos had a hand in that tipping her off and giving her an antidote.

No, surviving the poison was entirely Mel's doing - the passage describes how the ruby at her neck flared when the wine she drunk passed through her neck - because fire cleanses.

[Lykos]

<snip>. In ADwD she reveals that she uses powders to manipulate fires and cannot do it on her own. The other red priests introduced in the series seem to have much more powerful magic than she does.<snip>

It´s the seeming. Only Melisandre of all the Red Lot has a POV and explains to us how important it is to make the magic look easy to do ( for her).

Edit for corrections.

[SeanF]

Melisandre is certainly a capable magician. But, she's clearly not infallible.

[BabyMeraxes]

I also give Melisandre credit for the deaths of Balon Greyjoy, Robb Stark and Joffrey

[The guy from the Vale]

I also give Melisandre credit for the deaths of Balon Greyjoy, Robb Stark and Joffrey

Eh... that's quite a stretch. We know the natural reasons for all three deaths. With Renly, on the other hand, we have seen the shadow babies.

[BabyMeraxes]

Eh... that's quite a stretch. We know the natural reasons for all three deaths. With Renly, on the other hand, we have seen the shadow babies.

We think we know, but we only got a clear cut answer with Robb. I stand firm that Melisandre had major influnce over the death of those kings. However, I will gladly eat my hat if it's proven otherwise.

[Monk Meth-]

i think all the priest use the powders to wow audiences... but with magic awakening they don't really need to rely on tricks anymore..

[Ghost714]

The point I'm trying to make is that so far in the books there is strong evidence that blood magic works. That form of magic seems to cross various religions and individuals, Mirri Maz Duur and Mel both were trained in Asshai which seems to be the center of magic learning. Fire magic, I'm just not sure about. It appears to require a lot of human sacrifice for pretty meagre gains. I admit that Thoros' last right breath of fire surprised both him and me. Thoros admitted that that's not how it is supposed to work. Iis this due to the comet, the dragon, don't know. Mel does use fire magic on Orell's eagle and there is other possible examples.

I'm just not sure how powerful the R'hllor religion is based on the various practioners versus just a general increase in the effectiveness of all magic. The appearence of the direwolves before the comet and dragons indicate to me the possiblity that something else is causing the rise of magic in the GRRM world. I guess you can put me down as R'hllor agnostic rather than a R'hllor denier.

I personally believe that the mother Direwolf was warged by Bloodraven, and that's how it got south, because Bloodraven wanted the Starks to have the direwolves. Bloodraven is a greenseer, so he can see the future, so he staged the scene with the stag and Direwolf killing each other, to worn them.

Bloodraven said he had been watching Bran his whole life, knowing he would be the next greenseer. So I am sure that it was very important for Bran especially to get his Direwolf, so he could start developing his powers.

Wargs have always existed, even before the dragons brought magic back into the world. That's why the direwolves could be in the story, even before the dragons.

So I agree that the old gods are very strong, but I believe that the magic of the First Men picked up again, because the Others came back, and when they came back, it jump started the old magic again, because it is the old magic, the magic of the First Men, that is needed to fight against the Others.

I do believe though that there is also a lot of power in fire magic, and with R'hllor. I definitely do not deny its existence in the story. I don't simplify it, by saying its just the magic of the individual "practitioner".

@LuisDantas

Just because Moqorro appears to be better at seeing things in his flames, that doesn't mean Mel was wrong when she thinks about being one of the best at it, in her order. Moqurro is just one example, for all we know he is one of the only people to be better than Mel.

However I seem to have a stronger belief in Mel than other people, because I do think she is one of the best at reading the flames. Mel has gotten so many things right, and the visions she has gotten wrong are understandable IMO, because they were very cryptic, for the most part. Moqurro is guessing where ships are and stuff for Victarion, so we see him seeing a lot of things in his flames, but at the same time, I think the things he has gotten right were pretty simple to get, in comparison to the things Mel has gotten wrong.

So I agree that Moqurro is very good, and very powerful, but I think it's a little to early to say that he is better than Mel, and if he is better than Mel, he could be just one of the few thet are better. I mean, Moqurro definitely seems to be pretty high in the Red Priests hierarchy. So it's not like we see some newbie Red Priest being better than Mel, we see the second in command for the Red Priests of Volantis, being better than Mel.

So I don't think Moqurro proves Mel was wrong.