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Jon Snow Parentage


Naeblis2010

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I lean towards what we were told:

Jon Arryn was going to die unless he was rescued, Wylla helped Ned cross in her boat, they both thought they were going to die during this mission and 9 months later Ned named his bastard son after Jon Arryn.

Ned wasn't in love with Catelyn when they got married, she's the reason he couldn't pursue Ashara Dayne despite he was clearly interested, and Wylla was the first woman who had nothing to do with it.

He didn't mean to disrespect Brandon's fiancee, Ned just didn't see Cat as "his" and wouldn't do so for years to come so it makes perfect sense under the circumstances.

I saw a brief interveiw with GRRM about how the producers managed to convince him to let the books be filmed. One question he asked them was who is Jon Snow's mother? He liked their answer, shocking though it was, so much he agreed to the project.

He did like the answer, however, according to the DVDs as well as repeated interviews, Martin pushed the books as a series of series in HBO because he didn't want a movie to cut out anything.

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If Jon is really a Targaryen, wouldn't he have lighter hair and violet eyes? How long was Lyanna with Raeger? She could have been pregnant by Robert. Jon has Robert's black hair. But I can't reason why Lyanna wouldn't want Robert to know. Starks are all about honor and justice; there's no way Eddard and Lyanna had sex.

Well... it was mentioned that Jon took after the Stark bloodline. Mentioned by everyone under the sun, So maybe lyannas blood of the wolf (wild and strong traits) was more dominant.

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  • 2 months later...

This topic is dark and full of (potential) spoilers...

Seriously; it is. This isn't exactly the place to be whipping out theory's like this, especially since the whole R+L=J wouldn't even cross the readers mind until 'A Clash Of Kings'. This, I find, is best kept for the reader ot figure out for themselves--we'll all find out eventually people, relax. As of now though, our little 'Son Of Ice And Fire' has no stake in The Game Of Thrones--yet.

...I've said too much already! :ph34r:

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This topic is dark and full of (potential) spoilers...

Seriously; it is. This isn't exactly the place to be whipping out theory's like this, especially since the whole R+L=J wouldn't even cross the readers mind until 'A Clash Of Kings'. This, I find, is best kept for the reader ot figure out for themselves--we'll all find out eventually people, relax. As of now though, our little 'Son Of Ice And Fire' has no stake in The Game Of Thrones--yet.

...I've said too much already! :ph34r:

Incorrect. Ned's last POV chapter in AGOT practically spells it out. I facepalmed and wondered "Why didn't I realize it before?" Suddenly it all made sense. I went and re-read all the Lyanna mentions, and I've firmly believed in the theory since,

The bulk of early R+L=J evidence comes from Ned's chapters in AGOT. I can't even think of anything new that was added in ACOK, apart from some vague hints in

the story Ygritte told Jon

.

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I saw a brief interveiw with GRRM about how the producers managed to convince him to let the books be filmed. One question he asked them was who is Jon Snow's mother? He liked their answer, shocking though it was, so much he agreed to the project.

You make it sound almost as if GRRM liked their answer even though it's not something he planned and decided that it should be the truth. That's really hard to believe. In their recent interview in Entertainment Weekly, D&D have talked about their meeting and said that they had a 2-hour meeting with GRRM when they were trying to convince him to let them film the series, and after 2 hours he asked them: "Who is the real mother of Jon Snow?" D&D say they had discussed it among themselves and told him their "educated guess" and he confirmed it was true.

I think it's not hard to guess what their educated guess was - probably the same as the bulk of the fandom's - and I therefore doubt that it was something that would be "shocking" to most book fans. I really don't think they would have told him some crackpot theory like "Ned and Lyanna were committing incest" or similar nonsense, since their answer was important to GRRM accepting the offer. It was his test if they were hardcore fans/attentive readers. If GRRM has really called it "shocking", he's most likely trolling the fandom, or again underestimating the fans' perceptiveness. He seems to have thought that he was incredibly subtle with subtext and that few people would pick up on it, when in fact a lot of people have, and in the Internet age especially, even those who didn't are likely to read about those theories. But he has to deflect the questions when asked about these things directly.

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There's Targareyans that don't have silver hair/violet eyes combination. Rhaegar's own daughter with Elia (Rhaeneys) had his mother's dornish features, brown hair and eyes. So Rhaegar's son with Lyanna could have his mother's features. And Jon has Stark features as Lyanna had, dark brown hair and grey eyes... There's references in the books that Jon and Arya look like Starks as Ned, and that Arya looks like Lyanna...

And Lyanna was hide from the world after leaving with Rhaegar, which is during the whole rebellion war, one year. If she died at childbirth, as is implied in the books, the child has to be Rhaegar's.

I have noticed that a lot of the children take on their Mother's traits as apposed to their fathers

Also find it interesting that we find out in Daenerys first chapter her mother died birthing her, In Jon's first chapter we find out Tyrion's mother died birthing him, and in Bran's first chapter when the Starks find their Direwolves, the momma wolf had died giving birth... And then in Eddard's first chapter we hear about his promise to Lyanna and her dying with a fever... Sounds too much to me that GRRM was strongly hinting at her dying in child birth

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I have noticed that a lot of the children take on their Mother's traits as apposed to their fathers

Also find it interesting that we find out in Daenerys first chapter her mother died birthing her, In Jon's first chapter we find out Tyrion's mother died birthing him, and in Bran's first chapter when the Starks find their Direwolves, the momma wolf had died giving birth... And then in Eddard's first chapter we hear about his promise to Lyanna and her dying with a fever... Sounds too much to me that GRRM was strongly hinting at her dying in child birth

Didn't mamma direwolf die because she had been mortally wounded by a deer that she killed?

I thought this was foreshadowing for Ned dying and his 'wolf pups' being left orphaned - and that the crown/Baratheons would be responsible for it... although it turned out that the 'stag' who killed him was one just officially and carried the name Baratheon, even though he had no Baratheon blood.

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Didn't mamma direwolf die because she had been mortally wounded by a deer that she killed?

I thought this was foreshadowing for Ned dying and his 'wolf pups' being left orphaned - and that the crown/Baratheons would be responsible for it... although it turned out that the 'stag' who killed him was one just officially and carried the name Baratheon, even though he had no Baratheon blood.

It was foreshadowing Ned's and Robert's deaths, and, what you said, the Starks losing a parent

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If Jon is really a Targaryen, wouldn't he have lighter hair and violet eyes? How long was Lyanna with Raeger? She could have been pregnant by Robert. Jon has Robert's black hair. But I can't reason why Lyanna wouldn't want Robert to know. Starks are all about honor and justice; there's no way Eddard and Lyanna had sex.

There have been Targs who have had traits that took after their mother leading to dark hair. Baelor Breakspear is one of such.

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In the book(GoT) there's a section that describes Robb's build, but then goes on to state that Robb has the Tully coloring which suggests that Robb's build comes from his father, which is large and muscular, while Jon is described as lean and slender which could come from Rhaegar. Just because Jon doesn't have the Targaryen coloring doesn't mean he can't have Rhaegar's features and mannerisms. (This is all solely with the assumption of R+L=J)

Exactly. Jon's build is closer to Rhaegar's than to Ned, so in that aspect he would be more suited to bastard swords and other weapon that require finesse.

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In the book(GoT) there's a section that describes Robb's build, but then goes on to state that Robb has the Tully coloring which suggests that Robb's build comes from his father, which is large and muscular, while Jon is described as lean and slender which could come from Rhaegar.Just because Jon doesn't have the Targaryen coloring doesn't mean he can't have Rhaegar's features and mannerisms. (This is all solely with the assumption of R+L=J)

Exactly. Jon's build is closer to Rhaegar's than to Ned, so in that aspect he would be more suited to bastard swords and other weapon that require finesse.

But Ned was never supposed to be large or muscular. He's described as being medium height, and there's never any mention of him being particularly strongly built. I don't remember any mention of the Starks being particularly tall or strong. Jon and Arya are the ones supposed to have the typical Stark look, and both are pretty thin and not very tall. Though Brandon was taller than Ned and may have been closer to Robb's built.

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  • 1 month later...

If Jon is really a Targaryen, wouldn't he have lighter hair and violet eyes? How long was Lyanna with Raeger? She could have been pregnant by Robert. Jon has Robert's black hair. But I can't reason why Lyanna wouldn't want Robert to know. Starks are all about honor and justice; there's no way Eddard and Lyanna had sex.

Jon has Stark features, not Baratheon's. He simply got Lyanna's features instead of Rhaegar's.

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Hi guys,



New to this forum and I have just started reading A Game of Thrones and catching up on relevant episodes in the first series.



I want to throw my two pennies (cents) regarding Jon's parentage as something caught my attention while reading Arya chapter (I think chapter 22 in AGoT). Ned tells Arya that I see Lyanna in you. In earlier chapters it's noted that Jon and Arya look similar to each other and different from other Stark children. So if Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon has features similar to Arya, to me, it clearly points towards Jon as Lyanna's son and not Ned's bastard. Thoughts?


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  • 6 months later...

Having only read A Game of Thrones (and having seen seasons 1-3 of the TV show, which aren't helpful on this question at all, as I recall), here are my thoughts:


  • I don't believe for a minute that Jon's mother is an insignificant, low-born woman. Ned is pretty evasive on the subject when talking to Robert about it. It would be a pretty disappointing solution to a mystery in a fantasy series if Jon's parentage wasn't important. That led me to think that Jon's mother was a noblewoman with implications for the story on down the line.
  • I do find it believable that Ned is Jon's father. Ned certainly behaves as if that's the case. However, there are some things that made me question if that was true, like....
  • This series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire." It's clear that the Targaryen story represents the "Fire" aspect and that the Stark story represents the "Ice" aspect. That could mean that Jon and Dany are opposites of each other. Or, looking at the concept of a "song," that they they are intertwined with and complementary to each other.
  • There is an impending threat of White Walkers, so I suspect that in the long term the Wall (Jon) is going to depend on Daenerys and her dragons to defeat them in some fashion.
  • Maester Aemon takes an interest in Jon Snow and eventually reveals himself to be a Targaryen. That made me think that Jon's true heritage could be Targaryen and that Ned might have slept with a Targaryen woman. But that doesn't make much sense, because which Targaryen woman could Ned have had an opportunity to have slept with?
  • Ned's defining characteristic is his honor to the point of stubbornness. What damages his relationship with Robert is his insistence that the Targaryen children not be killed. No matter how honorable Ned is, I found it really unbelievable that he would defy Robert so much over the issue and step aside as Hand of the King. Doesn't Ned realize that little Targaryens grow up to be big Targaryens and that they are an inherent threat to long-term peace? Ned's opposition to killing the Targaryen children made me think that it was not just honor but sentimentality that made him take that stance.
  • Then you realize that Ned came back from Robert's Rebellion with Jon in tow. One of the key aspects of the campaign was Ned's attempt to rescue his sister, Lyanna, who had been a captive of the Targaryens. Honestly, I didn't pay much attention to this while reading the book other than it filling in a bit of Ned's backstory, but people on this forum seem to be making a big deal of it, so I guess it's important. And it lends further weight to the idea that Jon is Targaryen (Lyanna's child, not Ned's).
  • If Jon is a descendant of both Ned's sister and the Targaryens, that would explain his looks being similar to Ned's while also explaining some of Ned's and Maester Aemon's strange behavior.
  • Assuming all this is true, Ned's silence on Jon's heritage and suffering through Catelyn's ire for so many years seems a lot more "honorable" than if Ned were simply doing his fatherly duty of caring for a "bastard" son.
  • Finally, if Jon is indeed a Targaryen, you have the problem of the ages of the characters. Jon is 14 and male, which might mean that he is the rightful Targaryen heir. But even so, Jon is still a "bastard," since he would still not be the child of Rhaegar Targaryen's proper wife, Elia Martell. Meanwhile Dany is female and younger (she's 13), but she has the Targaryen name and three dragons, which are the sigil of House Targaryen.


So, buidling ever higher on this perilous house of cards, what does all this mean in the long term?


  • Are Dany and Jon going to team up with each other? Are they going to kill each other or cancel each other out?
  • Is the fact that there are three dragons important? And the colors of them? Does it represent three currently-living or future Targaryens? We know the Targaryens rode dragons, so are there three dragon-riders? Is there a third still-hidden Targaryen to go along with the third dragon? Are Jon and Dany going to have a baby together to go along with that third dragon? Does the red dragon breathe "Fire"? Does the cream-colored dragon breathe "Ice"? What does the green dragon do/breathe/represent?
  • And, finally, Jon looks to be not only a Targaryen, but also a Stark, too. That means he's "Fire and Ice," whereas Dany is only "Fire." Is there a legitimate Stark child who represents "Ice" to complete that trinity, or is this whole line of questions just a red herring???????? So many questions!


Holy cow, I'm exhausted after typing all of that. Take it for what it's worth, which may not be much at all. I might be misunderstanding some character relationships, plot points or even themes of the whole series. (Heck, while watching the TV series, I was shocked that Dany's dragon eggs actually came to life at the end of the first season finale. There had been very little foreshadowing of it in the show and so little "magic" up to that point that I had no idea that real, actual dragons were going to be an element of the story at all!)



Lots more to read... On to Book 2 very soon.


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Has anyone else come to the realization that Eddard Stark isn't the father of Jon Snow at all? That infact Jon Snow is really Jon Stark as he is the son of Lyanna Stark? Lyanna Stark made her brother promise her something, it's never known what, she just simple said "Promise me, Ned."

Eddard Stark traveled to the "Tower of Joy" to retrieve his sister from Rhaegar's clutches but when he got to her she was dying in a bed of blood. It's not known if she was stabbed or not. I suggest this opinion because most women would have given birth in bed, and it would be assumed that Lyanna Stark died in similar fashion to Tyrion Lannister's mother who died giving birth to him.

Ned returns home from the "Tower of Joy" with a baby boy. Instead of telling anyone the truth he simple states that he's the bastard son of his. Why would he do this? Robert Baratheon had Rhaegar's family killed, including his kids. If he found out that Lyanna had a son by Rhaegar, especially being betrothed to Robert, he would have killed the baby off. Hence why Ned simply went with the story that Jon is his bastard son.

Robert Baratheon had Rhaegar's family killed, including his kids.-- The lannisters killed the kids. Robert pardoned them after the fact. The Targ Robert ever killed or had killed was Rhaegar. (he cancelled the order on Dany-- plus the order and the cancellation were 13 years after the secret)

If he found out that Lyanna had a son by Rhaegar, especially being betrothed to Robert, he would have killed the baby off

If you don't have Robert as a threat before, Jon can't make him one.

Hence why Ned simply went with the story that Jon is his bastard son.

Not a very simple or good cover story,

Ned returns home from the "Tower of Joy" with a baby boy. Instead of telling anyone the truth he simple states that he's the bastard son of his. Why would he do this?

you already answered it. Lyanna Stark made her brother promise her something, it's never known what, she just simple said "Promise me, Ned." He had promised to raise his nephew as his son.

Ned remembered all he had given to keep the promise... still he considered it a broken promise...

He did raise Jon as his son... promise kept at a cost...

He raised Jon as his bastard... promise broken...

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Isn't there a place in the book where Catelyn states that Arya and Jon are the only two kids that look like Ned? Did Lyanna and both of the Stark brothers all look alike? I'd look it up, but I've already returned that one to the library.

Yes, but Ned has also said that Arya looks like Lyanna, so . . .

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