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Jon Snow Parentage


Naeblis2010

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Robert Baratheon had Rhaegar's family killed, including his kids.-- The lannisters killed the kids. Robert pardoned them after the fact. The Targ Robert ever killed or had killed was Rhaegar. (he cancelled the order on Dany-- plus the order and the cancellation were 13 years after the secret)

If he found out that Lyanna had a son by Rhaegar, especially being betrothed to Robert, he would have killed the baby off

If you don't have Robert as a threat before, Jon can't make him one.

Hence why Ned simply went with the story that Jon is his bastard son.

Not a very simple or good cover story,

Ned returns home from the "Tower of Joy" with a baby boy. Instead of telling anyone the truth he simple states that he's the bastard son of his. Why would he do this?

you already answered it. Lyanna Stark made her brother promise her something, it's never known what, she just simple said "Promise me, Ned." He had promised to raise his nephew as his son.

Ned remembered all he had given to keep the promise... still he considered it a broken promise...

He did raise Jon as his son... promise kept at a cost...

He raised Jon as his bastard... promise broken...

State, you should read Eddard II (GoT) again. Robert clearly says he wanted Viserys and Daenerys dead after the sack, and regrets having listened Jon Arryn, or, if it weren't for Jon Arryn, Robert would have ordered them killed over a decade ago. I think Ned tells us of their argument over Aegon and Rhaenys in this same chapter, just before Ned travels to the ToJ.

How is it that you think Ned would have had no reason to fear Robert's reaction if he were to learn that Jon is Targaryen?

*. . .and Jon was raised as Eddard's son, his natural son. If that was part of the promise then no promise w3as broken.

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State, you should read Eddard II (GoT) again. Robert clearly says he wanted Viserys and Daenerys dead after the sack, and regrets having listened Jon Arryn, or, if it weren't for Jon Arryn, Robert would have ordered them killed over a decade ago. I think Ned tells us of their argument over Aegon and Rhaenys in this same chapter, just before Ned travels to the ToJ.

How is it that you think Ned would have had no reason to fear Robert's reaction if he were to learn that Jon is Targaryen?

*. . .and Jon was raised as Eddard's son, his natural son. If that was part of the promise then no promise w3as broken.

State, you should read Eddard II (GoT) again. Robert clearly says he wanted Viserys and Daenerys dead after the sack, and regrets having listened Jon Arryn, or, if it weren't for Jon Arryn, Robert would have ordered them killed over a decade ago. I think Ned tells us of their argument over Aegon and Rhaenys in this same chapter, just before Ned travels to the ToJ.

After the reread...I still find you are using the Historian's fallacy – occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision.

--Lyanna's death was a motivating factor in Robert's hate of Targs--- "I didn't want the throne. I wanted the girl."

How is it that you think Ned would have had no reason to fear Robert's reaction if he were to learn that Jon is Targaryen?

You are also forgetting-- "I thought you were a better man. I thought we had made a better king." Ned.---AGOT 33

Either Ned is lying, or you are mistaken.*. . .

and Jon was raised as Eddard's son, his natural son. If that was part of the promise then no promise was broken.

I said "son" not "natural son"...

Ned raising Jon as his son was the promise kept

Ned raising Jon as his bastard was the promise broken.

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How is it that you think Ned would have had no reason to fear Robert's reaction if he were to learn that Jon is Targaryen?

You are also forgetting-- "I thought you were a better man. I thought we had made a better king." Ned.---AGOT 33

Either Ned is lying, or you are mistaken.*. . .

...or Ned is mistaken in his judgment of Robert. And since we've seen that Ned isn't exactly the best judge of character, it's not unusual.

and Jon was raised as Eddard's son, his natural son. If that was part of the promise then no promise was broken.

I said "son" not "natural son"...

Ned raising Jon as his son was the promise kept

Ned raising Jon as his bastard was the promise broken.

He didn't break any promise. He said that he had lived his lies for 14 years, but he never says that he broke his promise:

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

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...or Ned is mistaken in his judgment of Robert. And since we've seen that Ned isn't exactly the best judge of character, it's not unusual.

He didn't break any promise. He said that he had lived his lies for 14 years, but he never says that he broke his promise:d

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

Ned made a statement of what he thought.--Robert was a better man.

You make a statement of what Ned thought --Robert was a worse man

they do not match...

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.--AGOT Chapter 58

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@ SOD


I wasn't analyzing anything, just relaying the text, what Robert Baratheon said of himself in the text. Yes you said son, which he was raised as. Only in Neds thoughts is he never thought of as "son", but "boy" or "the boy" (which is another really good indicator that Jon is Lyanna's, not Ned's).


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Ned made a statement of what he thought.--Robert was a better man.

You make a statement of what Ned thought --Robert was a worse man

they do not match...

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.--AGOT Chapter 58

Ned made a statement of what he thought.--He was disappointed in Robert = Robert was a worse man than he thought (or thats how I see it anyway).

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Ned made a statement of what he thought.--Robert was a better man.

You make a statement of what Ned thought --Robert was a worse man

they do not match...

Nope, it's not what I think. It's right there in the text- Catelyn even states that he's doesn't really know Robert anymore.

Later on, Ned himself realizes that he's a bad judge of character. From your exact chapter that you quoted below:

"Once the door had slammed shut, he had seen no more. The dark was absolute. He had as well been blind."

"He damned them all: Littlefinger, Janos Slynt and his gold cloaks, the queen, the Kingslayer, Pycelle and Varys and Ser Barristan, even Lord Renly, Robert’s own blood, who had run when he was needed most. Yet in the end he blamed himself. “Fool, “ he cried to the darkness, “thrice- damned blind fool.”

Even he thinks he was stupid for being so trusting.

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.--AGOT Chapter 58

That's so ridiculously vague it's meaningless. That could mean anything from the promises that other people made to him or irrational fears or even nothing at all. It's a very vague dream, dreamt during a time that he is upset that he was betrayed. There's absolutely nothing at all that indicated he was dreaming about Lyanna or his promise to her.

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@ SOD

I wasn't analyzing anything, just relaying the text, what Robert Baratheon said of himself in the text. Yes you said son, which he was raised as. Only in Neds thoughts is he never thought of as "son", but "boy" or "the boy" (which is another really good indicator that Jon is Lyanna's, not Ned's).

Historian's fallacy – occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision.

You assume Robert preToJ (the decision maker of the past) viewed the Targaryens ations (events) from the same perspective and having the same information as Robert in chapter 2 did,

You asserted that Robert preToJ was a threat to Jon-T. based on what Robert said in GoT 13 years later,

You are missing out on Robert blaming the Targs for Lyanna's death... which he noted as his cause to hate Targs

Included in Jon must be kept secret from Robert is that preToJ Ned saw Robert as a threat to Jon-T

When Robert showed he was a threat to Targs 13 years later Ned's asserts that he "thought you a better man Robert---"

I agree Jon is not Ned's son..I agree that Jon was Lyanna's son.

I disagree that Ned saw Robert as a threat to Jon or that Robert was a threat to Targs pre (and largely post) Lyanna's death.

Lyanna was knew she was dying and leaving an orphan boy.

Making Ned promise to raise the boy as his son fits both what happened after and Ned's thoughts about it after.

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Ned made a statement of what he thought.--He was disappointed in Robert = Robert was a worse man than he thought (or thats how I see it anyway).

that's how i see it too

If Ned at the ToJ thought Robert was a babykiller and a danger to Jon. then he could not be disappointed in Robert and Robert was not a worse man than Ned thought.

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"He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." What would be the point in lying for 14 years if there was no reason to? I just can't see it, sorry. I gotta think that Lyanna (at least) was afraid of Robert, else there would be no need for the frantic "Promise me, Ned" and the 14 yr lie that haunts him so.


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"He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." What would be the point in lying for 14 years if there was no reason to? I just can't see it, sorry. I gotta think that Lyanna (at least) was afraid of Robert, else there would be no need for the frantic "Promise me, Ned" and the 14 yr lie that haunts him so.

I agree, It's always bugged me that this seems to be mostly overlooked on this forum, what does Lyanna fear as she is dying?, lots of discussion about, why the KG where there, what does she make Ned promise?

Don't ever recall seeing a thread about what Lyanna's fears' were, if she was afraid of Robert why wasn't Ned? If the lie was to protect Lyanna why overlook Robert's hatred & still be his closest friend? doesn't make sense to me.

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Nope, it's not what I think. It's right there in the text- Catelyn even states that he's doesn't really know Robert anymore.

Later on, Ned himself realizes that he's a bad judge of character. From your exact chapter that you quoted below:

"Once the door had slammed shut, he had seen no more. The dark was absolute. He had as well been blind."

"He damned them all: Littlefinger, Janos Slynt and his gold cloaks, the queen, the Kingslayer, Pycelle and Varys and Ser Barristan, even Lord Renly, Robert’s own blood, who had run when he was needed most. Yet in the end he blamed himself. “Fool, “ he cried to the darkness, “thrice- damned blind fool.”

Even he thinks he was stupid for being so trusting.

That's so ridiculously vague it's meaningless. That could mean anything from the promises that other people made to him or irrational fears or even nothing at all. It's a very vague dream, dreamt during a time that he is upset that he was betrayed. There's absolutely nothing at all that indicated he was dreaming about Lyanna or his promise to her.

Nope, it's not what I think. It's right there in the text- Catelyn even states that he's doesn't really know Robert anymore.

ok--

Ned made a statement of what he thought.--Robert was a better man.

You make a statement of what Ned thought --Robert was a worse man

Catelyn even states that he's(Ned) doesn't really know Robert anymore.

they do not match...

They are related, both show Ned was mistaken in his belief that Robert was a better man...

Neither show that he did not hold it.

Later on, Ned himself realizes that he's a bad judge of character. From your exact chapter that you quoted below:

"Once the door had slammed shut, he had seen no more. The dark was absolute. He had as well been blind."

"He damned them all: Littlefinger, Janos Slynt and his gold cloaks, the queen, the Kingslayer, Pycelle and Varys and Ser Barristan, even Lord Renly, Robert’s own blood, who had run when he was needed most. Yet in the end he blamed himself. “Fool, “ he cried to the darkness, “thrice- damned blind fool.”

Even he thinks he was stupid for being so trusting.

Ned was a bad judge of character. He was a fool. He was blind.--He only had his bad judgment and blindness to make the "correct" decision that Robert was a threat.

If he made the "correct" decision he would have been neither a bad judge of character nor blind nor a fool.

That's so ridiculously vague it's meaningless. That could mean anything from the promises that other people made to him or irrational fears or even nothing at all. It's a very vague dream, dreamt during a time that he is upset that he was betrayed. There's absolutely nothing at all that indicated he was dreaming about Lyanna or his promise to her.

There is only the minor thing that every other time ned thought of blood and promises, he thought of Lyanna--- Just a question... do you think the little match girl went to heavan?

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"He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." What would be the point in lying for 14 years if there was no reason to? I just can't see it, sorry. I gotta think that Lyanna (at least) was afraid of Robert, else there would be no need for the frantic "Promise me, Ned" and the 14 yr lie that haunts him so.

"He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." What would be the point in lying for 14 years if there was no reason to?

I said his reason was his promise to his sister. (not his sister's ex-betrothed)

I gotta think that Lyanna (at least) was afraid of Robert,

an ex-betrothed is a cause for concern?

else there would be no need for the frantic "Promise me, Ned"

Leaving an orphan...is not a cause for concern?

and the 14 yr lie that haunts him so.

Was Ned afraid that Robert was going to come and kill Jon?

Maybe he was haunted by his failure to keep that promise though he could do nothing about it.

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  • 4 weeks later...

What if what we thought was true turned out to be false? R+L=J ,What if Rhaegar is not Jon's father but Arthur Dayne is .Arthur was present at the kidnapping and unlike Rhaegar , Dayne was present at Jon's birth.When Cercei had her children Jaime was present.When Rhaegar gave the blue rose to Lyanna rhaegar was actually doing a solid for a friend since Arthur lost during the tourney .I don't think Lyanna would run off with a married man .


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What if what we thought was true turned out to be false? R+L=J ,What if Rhaegar is not Jon's father but Arthur Dayne is .Arthur was present at the kidnapping and unlike Rhaegar , Dayne was present at Jon's birth.When Cercei had her children Jaime was present.When Rhaegar gave the blue rose to Lyanna rhaegar was actually doing a solid for a friend since Arthur lost during the tourney .I don't think Lyanna would run off with a married man .

And she ran off with a Kingsguard?

But yes, I've thought of this too. I think there is a very very very very very small chance to be true, but definitely more than many others like Jon being Brandon and Ashara, or Ned and Ashara.

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And she ran off with a Kingsguard?

But yes, I've thought of this too. I think there is a very very very very very small chance to be true, but definitely more than many others like Jon being Brandon and Ashara, or Ned and Ashara.

But then why would Rhaegar remain at the ToJ himself.

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Plotting against his father?

While there's a war breaking out? Then why just not join the rebels?

ETA: plotting all by himself, while Arthur has a romance with Lyanna in the room above him? To plot you need allies, not just 1-2 KG.

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What if what we thought was true turned out to be false? R+L=J ,What if Rhaegar is not Jon's father but Arthur Dayne is .Arthur was present at the kidnapping and unlike Rhaegar , Dayne was present at Jon's birth.When Cercei had her children Jaime was present.When Rhaegar gave the blue rose to Lyanna rhaegar was actually doing a solid for a friend since Arthur lost during the tourney .I don't think Lyanna would run off with a married man .

Doesn't fit Arthur Dayne or Lyanna's characters at all.

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