414 replies to this topic

[jrtv]

Darth Rivers, on 11 April 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

_{I hope Jon dies. He's boring.}

I'm not sure you will get much support here, but GRRM has made it clear that basically any character can die at any time, so you might be in luck. (Although I doubt it personally)

[Darth Rivers]

If he does die I'll definitely be laughing my arse off, though.

[Lady Octarina]

Darth Rivers, on 11 April 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

If he does die I'll definitely be laughing my arse off, though.

The thing is, what would be the point of his death? Because GRRM has not killed any major, or even secondary character just for the sake of killing (even Oberyn probably only died so people would believe YG is Aegon, whereas the Red Viper, who was so close to Elia, would have seen at once it was a lie). And I really don't see how Jon's death would be more useful than his survival to the story, even if that means he has to stay out for a while.

[Cdubreezy]

Darth Rivers, on 11 April 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

_{I hope Jon dies. He's boring.}

Everyone has different opinions. Personally I find Dany incredibly boring as well as all of the new characters who have only 1, maybe 2 chapters throughout the series. I find Jon's chapters to be very interesting. Not my favorite. But I never stop on a Jon chapter.

[WinterWarrior]

I love Jon, long live the hero.

[Alia of the knife]

As much as there is a Cersei, or Jaimie following, and maybe even Stannis, or the Martels, I think the story is about Jon and Dany with Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Tryion a close second.

Jons story is what he becomes, and what he loses along with that- and that is his idenity of being Ned Starks son, which is the only thing he ever wanted.
Sadly for Rhaegar, Jon isn't going to care as much as Aegon, (fake or real), about being his son, the Targaryen dynasty, or the Iron Throne, because his destiny is greater than all that.
And while his character may go a little grey, it will nonetheless stay steady.

Dany is being deconstructed, and in attempting to gain power, and everything her family lost, she will most likely go the way of Aerys, and Viserys, losing herself.

So, IMHO I think Jon comes together as Dany comes apart, because Jon is the balance of ASoIaF, so he's kind of important to keep alive.

[Ygrain]

I don't have the AGOT here, but do I remember correctly that the roses Lyanna was clutching on her deathbed were dry/dried? Like, kept as a remembrance? If so, I think it might be another hint, that the roses were somehow special for her, probably as a gift. An even bolder hypothesis would be that they are the rose crown Rhaegar crowned her with at Harrenhall - a proof that there was a relationship and that she went willingly, since abduction victims hardly have time to take their prized possessions with them.

[g.o.d]

Ygrain, on 12 April 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

I don't have the AGOT here, but do I remember correctly that the roses Lyanna was clutching on her deathbed were dry/dried? Like, kept as a remembrance? If so, I think it might be another hint, that the roses were somehow special for her, probably as a gift. An even bolder hypothesis would be that they are the rose crown Rhaegar crowned her with at Harrenhall - a proof that there was a relationship and that she went willingly, since abduction victims hardly have time to take their prized possessions with them.

I don't think Rhaegar was sort of a person who would kidnapp a woman against her will. I bet she left with him willingly because they loved each other

[Ygrain]

g.o.d, on 12 April 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

I don't think Rhaegar was sort of a person who would kidnapp a woman against her will. I bet she left with him willingly because they loved each other

I don't think so, either, I'm just trying to add another hint that would support this.

[Darth Rivers]

Lady Octarina, on 11 April 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

The thing is, what would be the point of his death? Because GRRM has not killed any major, or even secondary character just for the sake of killing (even Oberyn probably only died so people would believe YG is Aegon, whereas the Red Viper, who was so close to Elia, would have seen at once it was a lie). And I really don't see how Jon's death would be more useful than his survival to the story, even if that means he has to stay out for a while.

Oh, come on. Does death have to have a point?

Other than that, his and Stannis's deaths might be exactly what's needed for Ramsay to become king.

And I hate Dany as well, yes.

[Lykos]

@Ygrain
I think the memory of the roses is the most doubtful of Ned´s, because he asociated Lyanna with the Winter-roses.  He remembered the smell of blood and roses.  If the blue roses of Lyanna´s crown kept the smell for such a long time after their "death", it would be a hint, that Darth Rivers might be right.  A blue rose growing in a chink of ice...filling the air with a sweet smell.
Only, the rose needs to grow and I can´t see anything sweet coming from Jon´s death, yet.  I´m prepared for a bitter (Jon´s death) - sweet (conciliatory) ending, though.  What do you say to death? - Not now.

[Thoheeks Bili]

Lykos, on 12 April 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

@Ygrain
I think the memory of the roses is the most doubtful of Ned´s, because he asociated Lyanna with the Winter-roses.  He remembered the smell of blood and roses.  If the blue roses of Lyanna´s crown kept the smell for such a long time after their "death", it would be a hint, that Darth Rivers might be right.  A blue rose growing in a chink of ice...filling the air with a sweet smell.
Only, the rose needs to grow and I can´t see anything sweet coming from Jon´s death, yet.  I´m prepared for a bitter (Jon´s death) - sweet (conciliatory) ending, though. What do you say to death? - Not now.

What do we say to death? Not today........just so.

[Corm]

If R+L=J, is there any way to prove it? The only thing that I would say even hints to him being a Targ would be if the dragons liked him, though I don't think that is usable evidence.

I suppose if we could knock out the other possibilities then maybe, I find it difficult to see how he could ever know

[theguyfromtheVale]

Some possible ways to 'prove Jon's parentage:

• An eyewitness account by Howland Reed. Wylla and Ashara Dayne might be other witnesses. Bloodraven knows, but who could ask him?
  
• There might be evidence in the crypts of Winterfell.

[Lady Dayne]

I have a very different theory:  B + A = J

I think that Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne are Jon's parents.  I think that Brandon fell in love with Ashara, even though he was betrothed to Catelyn.  I also think it's likely that Ashara was of Targaryen blood, because she was blond with violet eyes.  If they had married before Brandon's death, it would make Jon not only the rightful heir of Winterfell, but a possible contender for the throne.  Ned has kept it secret for several reasons.  One, it was dishonorable behavior on Brandon's part; two, he wanted to spare Catelyn the humiliation; and three, to protect Jon because anyone with Targaryen blood is a target of the Baratheon throne.

I agree that there was probably something going on with Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I don't think it has anything to do with Jon.  Has anyone else noticed what precious little information has been provided regarding Brandon?

[Dragonfish]

Lady Dayne, on 12 April 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I have a very different theory:  B + A = J

I think that Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne are Jon's parents.  I think that Brandon fell in love with Ashara, even though he was betrothed to Catelyn.  I also think it's likely that Ashara was of Targaryen blood, because she was blond with violet eyes. If they had married before Brandon's death, it would make Jon not only the rightful heir of Winterfell, but a possible contender for the throne.  Ned has kept it secret for several reasons.  One, it was dishonorable behavior on Brandon's part; two, he wanted to spare Catelyn the humiliation; and three, to protect Jon because anyone with Targaryen blood is a target of the Baratheon throne.

Technically Ashara had dark hair, though the rest of her family are typically light-haired. However, George has basically said that the Dayne look is not due to having Valyrian blood. And even if it were, that did not cause Robert to kill all the other Daynes, so there's no reason to think it would have caused him to kill Jon if he was a Dayne.

In any case, your theory unfortunately does not work, because Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. We know this because George has said in the past that Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys, putting his birth at around the Sack of King's Landing, and his conception at a few months into the year-long war.

[Corm]

theguyfromtheVale, on 12 April 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Some possible ways to 'prove Jon's parentage:

• An eyewitness account by Howland Reed. Wylla and Ashara Dayne might be other witnesses. Bloodraven knows, but who could ask him?
  
• There might be evidence in the crypts of Winterfell.

Well we don't know how much Howland Reed knew but that is a possibility. He definitely didn't hear Lyanna make Ned promise her something. I was thinking Wylla as well but we don't even know who she is exactly yet. Ashara is believed to be dead. Then again, when have we ever found reason to believe that?

What kind of evidence could prove his birth? A will perhaps, a confession. Seems unlikely though. Any other thoughts?

[Lady Dayne]

Dragonfish, on 12 April 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Technically Ashara had dark hair, though the rest of her family are typically light-haired...

Where did you find the information regarding Ashara's hair?  The only info I could find was page 65 of book 1 where she is described as "tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes."  I have always associated fair with blonde.  I'm sincerely asking the question and not being sarcastic.  As for your assessment of the timeline, I will have to take it at your word, as I have no additional knowedge from interviews with George.  I'm going strictly by the books themselves.

[Alia of the knife]

Ygrain, on 12 April 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

I don't have the AGOT here, but do I remember correctly that the roses Lyanna was clutching on her deathbed were dry/dried? Like, kept as a remembrance? If so, I think it might be another hint, that the roses were somehow special for her, probably as a gift. An even bolder hypothesis would be that they are the rose crown Rhaegar crowned her with at Harrenhall - a proof that there was a relationship and that she went willingly, since abduction victims hardly have time to take their prized possessions with them.

The only thing that gets me with this theory, (and maybe I'm too technical), is the shelf-life on that crown, because I've heard that theory before too.
I had what my Husband called a "no-win,"(for our relationship),   decorating trend whose theme was dried flowers, (which he got rid of immediately).
You could keep them -so long as you didn't touch them, because they crumbled to dust.

I always just thought that Rhaegar picked her flowers everyday since she loved them so, (that was known even to Robert), and those flowers might have been the most recent of his pick before he left to go to war.

I think it might be as another poster said and Neds remembrances might have started veering off into delusions.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 12 April 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[Ygrain]

Lady Dayne, on 12 April 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I have a very different theory:  B + A = J

I think that Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne are Jon's parents.  I think that Brandon fell in love with Ashara, even though he was betrothed to Catelyn.  I also think it's likely that Ashara was of Targaryen blood, because she was blond with violet eyes.  If they had married before Brandon's death, it would make Jon not only the rightful heir of Winterfell, but a possible contender for the throne.  Ned has kept it secret for several reasons.  One, it was dishonorable behavior on Brandon's part; two, he wanted to spare Catelyn the humiliation; and three, to protect Jon because anyone with Targaryen blood is a target of the Baratheon throne.

I agree that there was probably something going on with Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I don't think it has anything to do with Jon.  Has anyone else noticed what precious little information has been provided regarding Brandon?

I am afraid it wouldn't work, even if the timelines fit.
Silver hair and purple eyes are not an exclusively Targaryen trait, they are quite common e.g. around Lys, and in some parts of Dorne.
If Brandon secretly married Ashara, how would he proceed with the marriage to Catelyn, which would have happened in a couple of days, had he not learned about Lyanna? That would be a situation leading to an even more catastrophic outcome than the Red Wedding.
Not everyone possessing Targaryen blood is a target - mind you, the Martells live perfectly unharrassed. Besides, looking at the Targ family tree, I don't see any connection with the Daynes.

I do agree with two points - that Ned would go to great lengths to protect a family member, and that we know very little about Brandon. On the other hand, we don't know exactly very much about Lyanna, either.