414 replies to this topic

[Teal'c]

Buried Treasure, on 20 April 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

It's very possible that Barristan was wrong about 'Stark' dishonouring Ashara, he is unlikely to have actually been an eyewitness to any such event. For all we know he might have seen Ashara flirting with one of the Starks then not seen her sleeping with someone else.

I'd also like to throw in the idea that Ashara was never pregnant, but had some reason to lie to Barristan having a stillbirth. I've been half-heartedly speculating for a while now that Elia was already too ill to carry a second child to term and that the stillborn girl was actually hers. Of course, that begs the question of where they found a Targaryen looking boy to be Aegon....

eta. ... and I've been rereading the page and see that I missed that other people already mentioned the possibility that Elia had the stillborn. Great minds think alike!

If the second switch also happened, Faegon is not a Blackfyre but a Sand Snake. Pushing the envelope on credibility.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Buried Treasure, on 20 April 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

It's very possible that Barristan was wrong about 'Stark' dishonouring Ashara, he is unlikely to have actually been an eyewitness to any such event. For all we know he might have seen Ashara flirting with one of the Starks then not seen her sleeping with someone else.

I'd also like to throw in the idea that Ashara was never pregnant, but had some reason to lie to Barristan having a stillbirth. I've been half-heartedly speculating for a while now that Elia was already too ill to carry a second child to term and that the stillborn girl was actually hers. Of course, that begs the question of where they found a Targaryen looking boy to be Aegon....

eta. ... and I've been rereading the page and see that I missed that other people already mentioned the possibility that Elia had the stillborn. Great minds think alike!

I also think she may have never been pregnant, i think pregnancy rumors/stillbirth may have been a cover for if Jon had purple eyes or some other targ related feature

[Lady Octarina]

Teal, on 20 April 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

If the second switch also happened, Faegon is not a Blackfyre but a Sand Snake. Pushing the envelope on credibility.

lol
Let's see, does YG have widow's peak? Because if he does he's definitely Oberyn's!

[kg1982]

Lady Octarina, on 20 April 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

lol
Let's see, does YG have widow's peak? Because if he does he's definitely Oberyn's!

They're both hot tempered, so that is a start.

One thing about the whole R+L=J theory that I was thinking on today is Jon's dreams about the crypts of Winterfell.  I always thought that they were symbolic and highly doubt that Ned would have brought anything about Jon's parentage to Winterfell.   The whole idea was to lie about Jon's identity; why keep anything around that could incriminate Ned in treason.   However, I'm also not sure that the Kings of Winter are keeping Jon out of the feast because he doesn't belong.  Jon is a Stark regardless of if he is Ned's child or Lyanna's.  I believe that whatever public persona he takes on to defeat the Others, he'll see himself as a Stark.  I think that the whole idea of identity is that there is a choice there - All the Stark children will end up choosing to be Starks.

My theory on the dreams is that the Kings are telling Jon his work is not done.  Having dreams about feasting with Ned and Robb is pretty fatalistic and screwed up.  I think that the Kings in the North are basically telling Jon he doesn't get to die yet.  When he does die, I think that Jon will be accepted with open arms.

[Apple Martini]

kg1982, on 20 April 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

They're both hot tempered, so that is a start.

One thing about the whole R+L=J theory that I was thinking on today is Jon's dreams about the crypts of Winterfell.  I always thought that they were symbolic and highly doubt that Ned would have brought anything about Jon's parentage to Winterfell.   The whole idea was to lie about Jon's identity; why keep anything around that could incriminate Ned in treason.   However, I'm also not sure that the Kings of Winter are keeping Jon out of the feast because he doesn't belong.  Jon is a Stark regardless of if he is Ned's child or Lyanna's.  I believe that whatever public persona he takes on to defeat the Others, he'll see himself as a Stark.  I think that the whole idea of identity is that there is a choice there - All the Stark children will end up choosing to be Starks.

My theory on the dreams is that the Kings are telling Jon his work is not done.  Having dreams about feasting with Ned and Robb is pretty fatalistic and screwed up.  I think that the Kings in the North are basically telling Jon he doesn't get to die yet.  When he does die, I think that Jon will be accepted with open arms.

That's actually how I took the feast thing too — they weren't telling him he didn't belong because he's not really a Stark. They're telling him he doesn't belong because he's still alive. It could also be that, at the time he has the dream, he still thinks of himself as a Snow. Telling him that he's not a Stark could mean that he can't be there until he embraces that aspect — Stark, not Snow — and that he hasn't done it yet.

[Jem]

This is my take on Ashara being Aegon's mother: http://asoiaf.wester...to-swap-a-baby/

[Buried Treasure]

I remember that thread! There was some good discussion there.

I don't think Rhaegar fathered a child on Ashara (why do you think it was him Jem?) I think he was too busy at Harrenhal falling in love with Lyanna and not acting on it out of respect for his marriage and her betrothal.

I also don't think Rhaegar was in on a potential Ashara - Elia baby switch. I think Elia would have done it because she was desperate, she knew how much he wanted a son and she felt she was losing him. Further speculation; maybe Rhaegar found out later and the upset he felt was what prompted him to act so irrationally as to take Lyanna and disappear for many months.

[Eddward Stark]

kg1982, on 20 April 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

They're both hot tempered, so that is a start.

One thing about the whole R+L=J theory that I was thinking on today is Jon's dreams about the crypts of Winterfell.  I always thought that they were symbolic and highly doubt that Ned would have brought anything about Jon's parentage to Winterfell.   The whole idea was to lie about Jon's identity; why keep anything around that could incriminate Ned in treason.   However, I'm also not sure that the Kings of Winter are keeping Jon out of the feast because he doesn't belong.  Jon is a Stark regardless of if he is Ned's child or Lyanna's.  I believe that whatever public persona he takes on to defeat the Others, he'll see himself as a Stark.  I think that the whole idea of identity is that there is a choice there - All the Stark children will end up choosing to be Starks.

My theory on the dreams is that the Kings are telling Jon his work is not done.  Having dreams about feasting with Ned and Robb is pretty fatalistic and screwed up.  I think that the Kings in the North are basically telling Jon he doesn't get to die yet.  When he does die, I think that Jon will be accepted with open arms.

I have doubts that the crypt dreams are merely symbolic, partly because it is so odd that Ned buried his sister and brother (neither Lords nor Kings) down there.  I believe it was Bran who said that Ned buried them because he loved them so much, and the fact that this was even mentioned leads me to believe that it's another one of those things that GRRM tells us through the perspective of one character, that may not actually be true.  It's what Bran was told, but it seems to me that Eddard Stark would have always done what is expected of him, and wouldn't have broken from tradition in the burial locations unless for something significant...to the reader.  I figure he buried Lyanna there in order to keep...something...hidden but nearby and safe, and he buried Brandon there because it would have raised questions as to why only Lyanna got special treatment.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Eddward Stark, on 21 April 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I have doubts that the crypt dreams are merely symbolic, partly because it is so odd that Ned buried his sister and brother (neither Lords nor Kings) down there.  I believe it was Bran who said that Ned buried them because he loved them so much, and the fact that this was even mentioned leads me to believe that it's another one of those things that GRRM tells us through the perspective of one character, that may not actually be true.  It's what Bran was told, but it seems to me that Eddard Stark would have always done what is expected of him, and wouldn't have broken from tradition in the burial locations unless for something significant...to the reader.  I figure he buried Lyanna there in order to keep...something...hidden but nearby and safe, and he buried Brandon there because it would have raised questions as to why only Lyanna got special treatment.

But, Brandon was buried there first...wasn't he?

[Lady Octarina]

Tippy, on 21 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

But, Brandon was buried there first...wasn't he?

Brandon died first, but was his body (ad Rickard's) returned to Ned right after they were killed, or only after Robert took King's Landing? Because since Aerys and Joffrey have so many similarities, I think it likely he would have refused to return the traitors' bodies as a symbolic punishment. Eddward Stark does make a good point here

[theguyfromtheVale]

Eddward Stark, on 21 April 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I have doubts that the crypt dreams are merely symbolic, partly because it is so odd that Ned buried his sister and brother (neither Lords nor Kings) down there.  I believe it was Bran who said that Ned buried them because he loved them so much, and the fact that this was even mentioned leads me to believe that it's another one of those things that GRRM tells us through the perspective of one character, that may not actually be true.  It's what Bran was told, but it seems to me that Eddard Stark would have always done what is expected of him, and wouldn't have broken from tradition in the burial locations unless for something significant...to the reader.  I figure he buried Lyanna there in order to keep...something...hidden but nearby and safe, and he buried Brandon there because it would have raised questions as to why only Lyanna got special treatment.

Actually, I think Lyanna got a statue because she wasn't just a Stark of Winterfell, but a princess consort (to Rhaegar) and king's mother (to Jon) of all the seven kingdoms, including the North, making her as much deserving of a statue as all the other statued kings and lords.

[Ygrain]

Lady Octarina, on 21 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Brandon died first, but was his body (ad Rickard's) returned to Ned right after they were killed, or only after Robert took King's Landing? Because since Aerys and Joffrey have so many similarities, I think it likely he would have refused to return the traitors' bodies as a symbolic punishment. Eddward Stark does make a good point here

Isn't it said somewhere - by Bran, I think? - that the bodies are not actually there?

[Eddward Stark]

Lady Octarina, on 21 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Eddward Stark does make a good point here

Thanks

theguyfromtheVale, on 21 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Actually, I think Lyanna got a statue because she wasn't just a Stark of Winterfell, but a princess consort (to Rhaegar) and king's mother (to Jon) of all the seven kingdoms, including the North, making her as much deserving of a statue as all the other statued kings and lords.

But most everyone thinks Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar and that Jon is Ned's bastard, so the meaning of burying her would have been lost. Are you suggesting that Ned buried her because of her high status, unknown to everyone else ( if only for the present)?  Hmmm that's possible, but I still think it was more for a practical purpose.  What about Brandon?  That couldn't have been for his status, unless his father died just moments before him, making Brandon a lord momentarily.  But I'd think Brandon must have died first...you wouldn't strangle yourself to death to save a dead man.


And I don't think we can believe Ned buried them "because he loved them so much."

[lojzelote]

Apple Martini, on 20 April 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

That's actually how I took the feast thing too — they weren't telling him he didn't belong because he's not really a Stark. They're telling him he doesn't belong because he's still alive. It could also be that, at the time he has the dream, he still thinks of himself as a Snow. Telling him that he's not a Stark could mean that he can't be there until he embraces that aspect — Stark, not Snow — and that he hasn't done it yet.

I would love if this was it. I felt terribly sorry for Jon in that passage. Those mean Stone Kings didn´t let inside their own blood, but Theon Greyjoy was welcome?! (I know that he was Prince of Winterfell, but they should have dump him somewhere in the corner. He just took Winterfell from their descendants.) And if loyal servants could come, why not the boy who spent his childhood there and thought of Winterfell as his home? Damn you!

I don´t believe that Ned hid a prove of Jon´s parentage in Lyanna´s tomb. What would be the point? It would be better for him to get rid of such a thing immediately. I mean - if he planned to tell Jon the truth at all, it´s not as if he could present him with a prized dragon egg or a Valyrian sword, heirlooms of the previous royal dynasty. People would talk if Ned Stark´s supposed bastard son was prancing around with such valuables. And as for the birth certificate - it´s a good idea, but I don´t think anything like that exists in Westeros. And it would be still safer to tear it into pieces. One never knows what can happen.

[Lady Octarina]

Ygrain, on 21 April 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Isn't it said somewhere - by Bran, I think? - that the bodies are not actually there?

I don't remember, but if that's the case and their bodies aren't even there, it just corroborates Eddward Stark's opinion that Brandon's tomb is there more as a way to make Lyanna's more acceptable in a cover-up story.

lojzelote, on 21 April 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I don´t believe that Ned hid a prove of Jon´s parentage in Lyanna´s tomb. What would be the point? It would be better for him to get rid of such a thing immediately. I mean - if he planned to tell Jon the truth at all, it´s not as if he could present him with a prized dragon egg or a Valyrian sword, heirlooms of the previous royal dynasty. People would talk if Ned Stark´s supposed bastard son was prancing around with such valuables. And as for the birth certificate - it´s a good idea, but I don´t think anything like that exists in Westeros. And it would be still safer to tear it into pieces. One never knows what can happen.

Ned is our honorable guy; what if among Lyanna's last request was that he give her son this mysterious object to remind him of his Targaryen ancestry? Unlikely, sure, but not impossible, especially when we remember in Ned's last chapter his guilt over "broken promises". Lyanna asked something of him that he didn't fully fulfill, that much is certain; what is was, well... speculations are legitimate here ^.~

Crackpot: what if whatever is hidden in the crypts is not a sword, an egg, a letter, but simply Rhaegar's harp? (that was the instrument he played, wasn't it?)

eta: and anyway, hiding whatever it was in the crypts is not that dangerous; in fact, it's probably the safest place he could find in Winterfell. Who would open those tombs and why?

Edited by Lady Octarina, 21 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Did anyone ever watch Legends of the Hidden Temple on Nickelodeon? This is like, Legends of the Stark Crypts. "Your task today is to retrieve .... the harp of Rhaegar Targaryen! But beware of old stone kings lurking about."

Anyone? Bueller?

[Ygrain]

Apple Martini, on 21 April 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Did anyone ever watch Legends of the Hidden Temple on Nickelodeon? This is like, Legends of the Stark Crypts. "Your task today is to retrieve .... the harp of Rhaegar Targaryen! But beware of old stone kings lurking about."

Anyone? Bueller?

Not familiar with this one, but Deltora Quest comes in mind, with a hidden and swapped heir, and The Last Airbender, who has to restore balance in the world

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 21 April 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Not familiar with this one, but Deltora Quest comes in mind, with a hidden and swapped heir, and The Last Airbender, who has to restore balance in the world

It was a kids' game show. Every week, the kids would have to go into the "Hidden Temple" to retrieve some long-lost "artifact." Columbus' map, Genghis Khan's war horn, etc. The idea of a Targ artifact down in the crypts made me think of it.

[lojzelote]

Lady Octarina, on 21 April 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don't remember, but if that's the case and their bodies aren't even there, it just corroborates Eddward Stark's opinion that Brandon's tomb is there more as a way to make Lyanna's more acceptable in a cover-up story.




Ned is our honorable guy; what if among Lyanna's last request was that he give her son this mysterious object to remind him of his Targaryen ancestry? Unlikely, sure, but not impossible, especially when we remember in Ned's last chapter his guilt over "broken promises". Lyanna asked something of him that he didn't fully fulfill, that much is certain; what is was, well... speculations are legitimate here ^.~

Crackpot: what if whatever is hidden in the crypts is not a sword, an egg, a letter, but simply Rhaegar's harp? (that was the instrument he played, wasn't it?)

eta: and anyway, hiding whatever it was in the crypts is not that dangerous; in fact, it's probably the safest place he could find in Winterfell. Who would open those tombs and why?

I can see Jon´s face at the moment when Ned would hand him a harp, stating: "Here is a gift from your father, Jon."  Before he would tell him about Rhaegar. What would Jon think?

Tomb appears to be a safe place, but as I said, one never knows what can happen. What if the Crypts met the same fate as the First Keep? The tombstone could crack, and require replacement/reconstruction. The workers could find it then.

[ManyFacedOne]

Apple Martini, on 21 April 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Did anyone ever watch Legends of the Hidden Temple on Nickelodeon? This is like, Legends of the Stark Crypts. "Your task today is to retrieve .... the harp of Rhaegar Targaryen! But beware of old stone kings lurking about."

  Awesome.