414 replies to this topic

[Sasha Steelsong]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Ned doesn't tell Catelyn and Co about it because he's Ned. Like imagine Ned having sex with some "lowly" maid or whatever. He can't marry her and he has to leave her, but because of his honor, he won't talk negatively about her to anyone.

You talking about Jon being conceived before Ned met Catelyn is bullshit. It's like I said, you read too deeply into stuff and look for meanings where there aren't any. I never said I knew who the mother was or when Jon was conceived, i just said I know Ned is the father. You saying there is no proof for Ned being the father shows that you take these forums evidence more serioursly than actual book evidence.

In A Dance of Dragons GRRM spells out once again that Ned is Jon's dad, but alll noooo, that character doesn't know all the facts in your mind.

I've read all 5 books 3 times from start to finish, I think Ned is the dad. Sorry if this makes you think I'm stupid or whatever, I've read all the facts several times and believe Ned is the father.

I haven't even gone into the tv series which gives more evidence to Ned being the dad.

And never once did you read them carefully then it seems.  You used the example in ADWD of Ned fathing the child in the fingers as part of the case that Ned is the father.  But if you read the books as carefully as you claim you would know that when Catelyn arrived with Robb from Riverrun, Ned was waiting there with a baby Jon who was young enough that it was believable that he was fathered after Ned married Catelyn.  The story Ned told Catelyn was that he fathered the child after he married her and dishonored her through that.  Which means that the story you used for proof that Ned is Jon's father (that you say hammers home the point in ADWD) doesn't make sense with the timeline of how young Jon was when Catelyn first saw him OR Ned's story about having fathered Jon after he wed Catelyn.  If the story of in ADWD were true, Jon would have been over a year old when  Catelyn showed up with Robb is swaddling clothes...NO ONE would have thought that Jon was born around the same time as Robb NOR that Ned had broken his vows to Catelyn since Jon would have obviously been conceived before the marriage if he was conceived before the war officially started.

Edited by atpthornton, 12 April 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[jon's_mom]

>.<

really?

Are you guys trolling me or something? Ned says he is the father to Robert his best friend and King.
"Wylla"
Ned said Wylla. this is in the actual books guys. Not some bullshit you make up coz a blue rose was foretold in a prophecy somewhere vaguely.

Also, you are using other weird prophecies as proof of Jon's parentage? Like really, the prophec about a woman fish and Catelyn is somehow relevant to Jon now? I said it wasn't yet some of you made a point of arguing as if that makes Jon R+L.

Jon is Ned's son, it is proven in the books. Let have a look at the tv series as well. Robb, Bran Arya, Sansa all consider Jon to be their brother. Cateln in the tv series and in the books considers Jon as Ned's son.

I forgot to mention that actually. If Jon was Leanna's kid wouldn't Cateln know? she seems to everthing else.

Like I mean really, this is what you area 51 conspiracy theorists believe.....

"Oh hi guys I'm Ned with my sister's baby, I'm gonna pretend it's mine"

"Hey Ned wassup?"

"Oh nothing just carrying the baby I had with.... I dunno that Wylla chick"

"Ok Ned."

**** Wylla learns of Ned's intentions telepathically and goes along with them ****

"you sure you the dad Ned?"

"Oh well actually my sister mothered him with the guy Robert killed."

whatever

[Corm]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

>.<

really?

Are you guys trolling me or something? Ned says he is the father to Robert his best friend and King.
"Wylla"
Ned said Wylla. this is in the actual books guys. Not some bullshit you make up coz a blue rose was foretold in a prophecy somewhere vaguely.

Also, you are using other weird prophecies as proof of Jon's parentage? Like really, the prophec about a woman fish and Catelyn is somehow relevant to Jon now? I said it wasn't yet some of you made a point of arguing as if that makes Jon R+L.

Jon is Ned's son, it is proven in the books. Let have a look at the tv series as well. Robb, Bran Arya, Sansa all consider Jon to be their brother. Cateln in the tv series and in the books considers Jon as Ned's son.

First of all, you brought up the fact that the prophecies were all wrong. Secondly, do you know what lying is? He made a promise to his dying sister who was feverish and covered in blood after being taken by Rhaegar who crowned her the queen of love and beauty and next thing he turns up in Winterfell with a baby? This is Ned we're talking about, honourable to the core.

Quote

I forgot to mention that actually. If Jon was Leanna's kid wouldn't Cateln know? she seems to everthing else.

Why would she know? Ned kept the truth from her to protect Jon

[Dragonfish]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

>.<

really?

Are you guys trolling me or something? Ned says he is the father to Robert his best friend and King.
"Wylla"
Ned said Wylla. this is in the actual books guys. Not some bullshit you make up coz a blue rose was foretold in a prophecy somewhere vaguely.

Did it never occur to you that Ned is lying?

Oh, and once again, you fail to realize that R+L=J is not based on the vision of the blue rose. Most of the evidence for the theory comes from Ned's own thoughts in AGOT.

Quote

Also, you are using other weird prophecies as proof of Jon's parentage? Like really, the prophec about a woman fish and Catelyn is somehow relevant to Jon now? I said it wasn't yet some of you made a point of arguing as if that makes Jon R+L.

No, we only made a point of arguing it because you were being obtuse.

Quote

Jon is Ned's son, it is proven in the books. Let have a look at the tv series as well. Robb, Bran Arya, Sansa all consider Jon to be their brother. Cateln in the tv series and in the books considers Jon as Ned's son.

Uh, yeah, they think Jon is their brother because Ned never told them the truth. Did this really never occur to you? Did you think we all believed the rest of the family knew about Jon's true parentage?

Quote

I forgot to mention that actually. If Jon was Leanna's kid wouldn't Cateln know? she seems to everthing else.

Why would Ned tell her? He'd be carrying a dangerous secret by harboring Jon. And as he says in AGOT, "Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

Edited by Dragonfish, 12 April 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[jon's_mom]

Apple Martini, on 10 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

But those dreams were prophetic, weren't they? I don't recall anyone dreaming about something that had already happened. Bran can see the past but it's through a weirwood.

this is the crap I'm arguing against. But lo and behold, it's all true

[Jem]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

>.<

really?

Are you guys trolling me or something? Ned says he is the father to Robert his best friend and King.
"Wylla"
Ned said Wylla. this is in the actual books guys. Not some bullshit you make up coz a blue rose was foretold in a prophecy somewhere vaguely.

This is hilarious! Certainly brightening up my boring Friday morning at work!

Anyhoo, hopefully someone will provide the direct quote regarding this conversation between Robert and Ned, to show you that you are wrong about this.

Robert and Ned are talking at cross-purposes here. It is just another example of GRRM being tricksy with his writing. Don't worry about it, we are mean't to be fooled, GRRM is very clever about making us think he has revealed/said something, when he really hasn't. It is just our poor reading comprehension skills that make us jump to the wrong conclusions.

[corbon]

Dragonfish, on 12 April 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Did it never occur to you that Ned is lying?

But he isn't. He tells the exact truth here, answering precisely Robert's question. You need to go back to the whole paragraph and read it from the beginning to follow tRoberts question, meandering and Ned's answer.
What was her name, that common girl of yours?

Look, this has been the most effective troll I've seen in years - heck, just look at the troll's name - but I'm pretty disappointed that some usually astute posters can't even get basic facts right when responding.

[jon's_mom]

Dragonfish, on 12 April 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Did it never occur to you that Ned is lying?

Oh, and once again, you fail to realize that R+L=J is not based on the vision of the blue rose. Most of the evidence for the theory comes from Ned's own thoughts in AGOT.

umm, no I came up with those thoughts from the actual book. Not some supposition crap you make up in these forums.

No, we only made a point of arguing it because you were being obtuse.

No you said them as iron facts for your bullshit theory.

Uh, yeah, they think Jon is their brother because Ned never told them the truth. Did this really never occur to you? Did you think we all believed the rest of the family knew about Jon's true parentage?

Um yeah I did think it would occur to you since it every single character in the book believes it. Oh but that's right, you think Jon is Jesus so is special and deserves some weird kind of worship. Personally I think of him as a normal character.

Why would Ned tell her? He'd be carrying a dangerous secret by harboring Jon. And as he says in AGOT, "Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

So how come Catelyn knows everything about Ned except this one thing you invented? Oh thats right, because its bullshit. Catelyn knows all about Ned and his son (Jon) dunno why you can't accept that.

The proof is there, be brave and admit your wrong in R+L=J and I'll congratulate you.

[Dragonfish]

corbon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

But he isn't. He tells the exact truth here, answering precisely Robert's question. You need to go back to the whole paragraph and read it from the beginning to follow tRoberts question, meandering and Ned's answer.
What was her name, that common girl of yours?

Look, this has been the most effective troll I've seen in years - heck, just look at the troll's name - but I'm pretty disappointed that some usually astute posters can't even get basic facts right when responding.

I am aware of the argument that Ned actually tells the truth in that quote. I have even made that argument a few times before. But when dealing with a poster as thick as jon's_mom, I tend to find it easier to simply say that Ned is lying Robert in that scene, rather than making a nuanced textual analysis that they likely wouldn't accept.

Not sure why you felt the need to berate someone who is on your side, here. Sometimes you're a little too quick on the trigger, corbon.

Edited by Dragonfish, 12 April 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[Apple Martini]

We're getting into idiot troll territory here.

[Euphail]

Oh man, why haven't I seen it all this time. Ned is Jon's real father. And Wylla..., o'l Wylla is his mother. Brilliant! All the nuanced text, the subtle clues of roses, and kingsguard at the ToJ. The roses, THE ROSES! all a farse. Ned was trying to trick us, but we saw through it all to the truth of it. Wylla, you old hag.

Wylla was obviously some hanger on'er to the military camps, and Ned just got bored one night. After he found his sister at the ToJ (the kingsguard was there to execute her clearly, they needed 3 of the best because she's a crafty one), Ned and Wylla met up in Starfall (she magically appeared there,) Ned told her, "yea, you're fun and all, but sod off, I'm taking the boy." She didn't protest, and never bothered seeing her kid again. When Cat asks about it, Ned flips out because he's embarassed that he sullied his honor, and flips out at Cat because that's how he rolls.

Timing matches up - check
True to Ned's character - check

All wrapped up nicely.

[greygnarl]

Just because Ned had Wylla doesn't mean that he fathered Jon on her.

[Apple Martini]

greygnarl, on 12 April 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Just because Ned had Wylla doesn't mean that he fathered Jon on her.

I'm not even convinced he had Wylla.

[greygnarl]

Apple Martini, on 12 April 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I'm not even convinced he had Wylla.

Good point, that could all be a fake to make Jon more believable.

[Corm]

Doesn't Edric Dayne say that he had the affair with Wylla before he was married to Catelyn?

ETA: Obviously that's not an affair

Edited by Corm, 12 April 2012 - 10:12 PM.

[Independent George]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Jon is Ned's son, it is proven in the books. Let have a look at the tv series as well. Robb, Bran Arya, Sansa all consider Jon to be their brother. Cateln in the tv series and in the books considers Jon as Ned's son.

Here's the problem - the entire series is about unreliable narrators and the fog of war. Ned as the father is not proven in the books, it is stated in the books - same as Robb leading an army of wolves against Stafford, Dany servicing horses, Renly's ghost fighting at the Blackwater, and Davos being executed in White Harbor. Nothing is proven except what is explicitly shown to the reader, and not recounted by another party - including Ned.

R+L = J is about constructing the best fit line with the available evidence. It fits all of the data points people have brought up, and, more importantly, there is nothing that can be proven to contradict it. Your only evidence against it is that other people have said that Ned is the father. The problem with that is that none of those people have any firsthand knowledge - they are repeating rumors.

[jon's_mom]

thanks for that sarcastic post Euphail.

You are pretty close to being right actually but not quite.

I must admit I'm pretty interested in you guys theory that Ned never lied to Robert and this somehow further proves your theory.

[Corm]

Nevermind

Edited by Corm, 12 April 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[Exitao]

Ned is not a person to lie.  True.  

However, Ned honoured a deathbed request and made a promise to his sister and the details were not made clear.

If Rhaegar had got a child on Lyanna and she had made Ned swear to raise the child as his own, protect the child and keep the fact that he's a Targaryen bastard a secret, Ned would lie.

Ned would say the child was his, would refuse to have the child fostered so that he could personally protect him and, because he's so inflexibly honour-bound, Ned would stubbornly refuse to compound his lie or allow anyone to cast aspersions on anyone. He would steadfastly refuse to comment on the identity of the mother or confirm the identity.  Every time someone brings up the subject, he outright refuses to answer or changes the subject.

In Rob's case, Ned would likely allow Robert to think the wrong way simply because we know what Robert would do if he found out that Jon was actually a Targaryen.


It does seem more of a general assumption of the characters in the books that the abduction was non-consentual.  However, there is a theme within the books of people forced to marry out of duty, even when their hearts lay elsewhere, so it is conceivable that Rhaegar and Lyanna were well-acquainted before Harrenhal.


As to the question of how Jon's origens can ever be confirmed...  There are a couple possiblities:

• If the father was Rhaegar, it is possible that Barristan Selmy may know something as he was a King's Guard.
  
• If Jon's parents were witnessed by heart trees, Bran will eventually see it.

It seemed clear to me that the R+L=J idea was alluded at in the book long before I ever looked at any online discussion.


I also wonder about Daenerys' vision of Rhaegar and the baby.  If she had never seen Rhaegar, how would she recognise Elia?  Would she know the difference between Lia and Lyanna?

[Apple Martini]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

I must admit I'm pretty interested in you guys theory that Ned never lied to Robert and this somehow further proves your theory.

Robert asked who Ned's "common girl" was and Ned answered. Ned never confirms that she was Jon's mother, he lets Robert draw his own conclusions. Similarly to how he told Catelyn that Jon was "his blood," and let her assume that he was his son.

Exitao, on 12 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

I also wonder about Daenerys' vision of Rhaegar and the baby.  If she had never seen Rhaegar, how would she recognise Elia?  Would she know the difference between Lia and Lyanna?

The woman in the House of the Undying vision has to be Elia and the baby has to be Aegon. For one thing, Rhaegar calls Aegon by his name. For another, Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born and thus never had the chance to see him.

Edited by Apple Martini, 12 April 2012 - 10:21 PM.