414 replies to this topic

[Exitao]

Apple Martini, on 12 April 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Robert asked who Ned's "common girl" was and Ned answered. Ned never confirms that she was Jon's mother, he lets Robert draw his own conclusions. Similarly to how he told Catelyn that Jon was "his blood," and let her assume that he was his son.



The woman in the House of the Undying vision has to be Elia and the baby has to be Aegon. For one thing, Rhaegar calls Aegon by his name. For another, Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born and thus never had the chance to see him.

Ah.  I'll take that.

[jon's_mom]

Exitao, on 12 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Ned is not a person to lie.  True.  

However, Ned honoured a deathbed request and made a promise to his sister and the details were not made clear.

If Rhaegar had got a child on Lyanna and she had made Ned swear to raise the child as his own, protect the child and keep the fact that he's a Targaryen bastard a secret, Ned would lie.

Ned would say the child was his, would refuse to have the child fostered so that he could personally protect him and, because he's so inflexibly honour-bound, Ned would stubbornly refuse to compound his lie or allow anyone to cast aspersions on anyone. He would steadfastly refuse to comment on the identity of the mother or confirm the identity.  Every time someone brings up the subject, he outright refuses to answer or changes the subject.

In Rob's case, Ned would likely allow Robert to think the wrong way simply because we know what Robert would do if he found out that Jon was actually a Targaryen.


It does seem more of a general assumption of the characters in the books that the abduction was non-consentual.  However, there is a theme within the books of people forced to marry out of duty, even when their hearts lay elsewhere, so it is conceivable that Rhaegar and Lyanna were well-acquainted before Harrenhal.


As to the question of how Jon's origens can ever be confirmed...  There are a couple possiblities:

• If the father was Rhaegar, it is possible that Barristan Selmy may know something as he was a King's Guard.
  
• If Jon's parents were witnessed by heart trees, Bran will eventually see it.

It seemed clear to me that the R+L=J idea was alluded at in the book long before I ever looked at any online discussion.


I also wonder about Daenerys' vision of Rhaegar and the baby.  If she had never seen Rhaegar, how would she recognise Elia?  Would she know the difference between Lia and Lyanna?

I don't know how to multi quote or whatever so I'll just refute your bullshit point by point.

So you admit Ned isn't a person to and never did lie. GRRM never showed Ned as a liar ever. Yet according to you Ned was lieing in his own thoughts because he was hiding R+L=J from the reader. Like even in Ned's own thought R+L never equals J but whatever,

Then you go on to make out Jon as some mysterious Targaryan its bullshit.

I dunno, i would prove point by point why your post proves R+L does not equal J but you do a prett good job of proving my point and showing how stupid the point actually is.

I will also say this to the nay-sayers and pushers of this bullshit theory. How come you make so much effort hassling me when even if you believe R+L=J there is absolute bullshit theories out there, like Jon being the prince and saviour of all man kind. Jon being the hidden Targaryan king etc....

[LadyMary]

Corm, on 12 April 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Doesn't Edric Dayne say that he had the affair with Wylla before he was married to Catelyn?

ETA: Obviously that's not an affair

Edric Dayne believes and tells Arya that Wylla is Jon's mother, because he and Jon are milk brothers. I think it's probably his assumption based on the fact that Ned has claimed Jon as his son and the fact that Wylla nursed Jon before she nursed Edric. He may have heard Wylla claim it, or someone else in the Dayne household, but if Wylla is covering for someone else she would let them go on believing it.

But Edric also tells Arya that Ned and Ashara were in love and that he broke her heart. Hence the secondary theory/rumor which some in Winterfell and the Kingdom believed (such as Catelyn and Cersei), that Lady Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother. It's possible that Wylla, a household servant/wetnurse of the Daynes was used as a decoy to cover for Ashara.

And then there's the rumor about the fisherman's daughter that Ned supposedly knocked up while fleeing the Vale of Arryn to raise his banners before the rebellion. Lots of rumors about who Ned impregnated.

The fact that Ned named Wylla in response to Robert's question about his common girl doesn't mean it's true. We know from Ned POVs that he was living a lie for 14 years - exactly the age of Jon Snow at that time in the story. What was the lie that caused him such guilt, if not the origin of Jon's parentage? He made an unspecified  promise to his sister that caused him to tell lies and keep secrets from the people he loved.  What promise was so important that he had to do that?

It's not what is said but what is left unsaid that gives substance to the R+L=J theory. The best lies are lies of omission, letting people assume something is true but not filling in the facts for them. Robert has fathered so many bastards on common women he doesn't care about that he assumes Ned's obfuscation is true because it fits his own experiences. It helps Ned keep up the lie because he has the reputation for being honorable to a fault.  We know that Ned is capable of lying to protect those he loves. We know that he thinks a lie can be honorable sometimes. No doubt in my mind that Ned is capable of lying even to Robert if it means keeping a promise to his sister, and/or protecting the life of his nephew whose father was Robert's most hated adversary and someone that Robert would want destroyed.

I think that the circumstantial evidence in the books supports the R+L=J theory instead of the wetnruse/servant of the Daynes named Wylla or the fisherman's daughter in the Vale, or the noblewoman Ashara that were all rumored to be Jon's mother. R+L=J fits with Ned's thoughts, emotions and the memories that haunt him, regardless of what he says.

Edited by LadyMary, 12 April 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[Exitao]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

I don't know how to multi quote or whatever so I'll just refute your bullshit point by point.

So you admit Ned isn't a person to and never did lie. GRRM never showed Ned as a liar ever. Yet according to you Ned was lieing in his own thoughts because he was hiding R+L=J from the reader. Like even in Ned's own thought R+L never equals J but whatever,

Then you go on to make out Jon as some mysterious Targaryan its bullshit.

I dunno, i would prove point by point why your post proves R+L does not equal J but you do a prett good job of proving my point and showing how stupid the point actually is.

I will also say this to the nay-sayers and pushers of this bullshit theory. How come you make so much effort hassling me when even if you believe R+L=J there is absolute bullshit theories out there, like Jon being the prince and saviour of all man kind. Jon being the hidden Targaryan king etc....

I said Ned was unlikely to lie, and then proposed a situation/circumstance in which he would.  Honour prevents him from lying, in general.   However, honour could force him to lie, it used to be very common that deathbed requests were inviolate.  In the case I propsed above, honour and love would force Ned to lie.

From your language and aggressive writing, I can only assume that they've been right in calling you a troll.

[jon's_mom]

So even in your posts for R+L=J you admit that it is a stretch to assume Ned is a liar? I never noticed Ned to lie ever when I read the books, in fact Ned had a POV and I never saw him lie in that either. I'm not proposing anything radical, what I am proposing is that Ned never lied and was honest in his POV. I say there is zero evidence for Ned lying ever, you will disagree and say Ned did lie, even though there is absolutely no evidence in the books.

Oh wait there is evidence in the books thats why I'm sitting here. Of course if you wanna pretend something else then go prove that.

[Apple Martini]

Stop feeding the troll.

[Mari]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

So how come Catelyn knows everything about Ned except this one thing you invented? Oh thats right, because its bullshit. Catelyn knows all about Ned and his son (Jon) dunno why you can't accept that.

Catelyn does not now everything about Ned. She doesn't know how Brandon and Rickard died, and obviously she doesn't know who Jon's parents are. If Ned shared everything with her, she would know these things, but she doesn't.

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

So even in your posts for R+L=J you admit that it is a stretch to assume Ned is a liar? I never noticed Ned to lie ever when I read the books, in fact Ned had a POV and I never saw him lie in that either. I'm not proposing anything radical, what I am proposing is that Ned never lied and was honest in his POV. I say there is zero evidence for Ned lying ever, you will disagree and say Ned did lie, even though there is absolutely no evidence in the books.

Ned does lie.

Quote

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.  

Quote

The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

Quote

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. So secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.

And apparently he thinks that some lies can be honorable:

Quote

“It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was...not without honor.”

[Datepalm]

Mod:

Ok, ok, calm down. if you think someone is trolling, report them. Don't derail the thread with personal sniping. It's a terribly unattractive quality.

[jrtv]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

So even in your posts for R+L=J you admit that it is a stretch to assume Ned is a liar? I never noticed Ned to lie ever when I read the books, in fact Ned had a POV and I never saw him lie in that either. I'm not proposing anything radical, what I am proposing is that Ned never lied and was honest in his POV. I say there is zero evidence for Ned lying ever, you will disagree and say Ned did lie, even though there is absolutely no evidence in the books.

Oh wait there is evidence in the books thats why I'm sitting here. Of course if you wanna pretend something else then go prove that.

Mari, on 12 April 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Catelyn does not now everything about Ned. She doesn't know how Brandon and Rickard died, and obviously she doesn't know who Jon's parents are. If Ned shared everything with her, she would know these things, but she doesn't.

Ned does lie.



And apparently he thinks that some lies can be honorable:

Check out Mari's post.  Ned would lie if he had to - in this case to keep his promise to his soontobedead sister.

Also, Ned's downfall, trusting Baelish to pay off the City Watch, is not honourable.  He did this only because he thought it was the best course of action in this situation.

[Ygrain]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

I never noticed Ned to lie ever when I read the books

Then you might want to do a re-read. Or do you think that Ned was telling the truth before Baelor's sept?
"The lies we tell for love." If he could dishonour himself and lie to protect Sansa, it's no stretch to consider he could have done that before.

Could someone put up a link to that wonderful essay which sums up all the R+L evidence? I have to bookmark it, for future cases. Thanks

[Ran]

Welcome to the forum, Mari. An excellent first contribution to the conversation. I was going to collect the same quotes but you beat me to it.

[theguyfromtheVale]

@Ygrain:

http://www.towerofth...ws_parents.html

[Towel]

Mari KILLED that first post. Well done.

Edit: and just to take that one step further. Can anyone tell me how old Jon Snow is in GOT?

Edited by Towel, 13 April 2012 - 05:18 AM.

[David Selig]

14.

[Towel]

Towel, on 13 April 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

and just to take that one step further. Can anyone tell me how old Jon Snow is in GOT?

David Selig, on 13 April 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

14.

Quote

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

Must be a coincidence.

Edited by Towel, 13 April 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[Teal'c]

@ jon's mom

Characterization also includes how characters react to one another. I'm going to pull my own post forward on this. Please consider the question of what did Ned promise to Lyanna, by her reaction.

Teal, on 16 March 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

I think that Lyanna's response to Ned's promise is a good intuitive clue. I can't find my GOT right now for an exact quote, but Ned remembers that she was afraid, and once he promised, she was no longer afraid.

So the answer to what was the promise is to figure out why was she afraid, and what Ned was able to promise to eliminate her fear. Lyanna was a bold and daring young woman, so she wouldn't be afraid of anything trivial.

The possibilities include:

1. She was afraid she wouldn't be buried at Winterfell. While specification of her final resting place would be a reasonable deathbed request, why would she be afraid that she wouldn't be buried there? It doesn't fit her personality, I think.
2. She was actually abducted by Rhaegar and was afraid he was coming back to rape her again. No, Rhaegar was dead and not coming back. Ned did not need to promise to protect her from Rhaegar.
3. She was afraid because she was still imprisoned by the Kingsguard and asked Ned to free her. Ned had been there, done that. So that wasn't it.
4. She was not abducted, actually loved Rhaegar. She asked Ned to promise to protect her lover from Robert. She was afraid for his life. No, Rhaegar was already dead, so that wasn't the promise either.
5. She was afraid she was dying. She asked Ned not to let her die. Ned would have no skill to save her, and they both knew that.
6. Her child was in peril, the most terrifying position a mother can be in. Would he protect her child, even though the child belonged to Rhaegar? She couldn't know for certain until Ned gave his word. Once he gave his word, she was no longer afraid.

That's why I think R+L=J. The blue rose growing in the ice wall sent me back to Ned's promise, and hiding Jon is the only promise that fits. I know some of you are five years ahead of me on this, but I only found GOT in December. Apologies if I'm posting old evidence.

Edited by Teal'c, 13 April 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[JimZipCode]

Mari, on 12 April 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

And apparently he thinks that some lies can be honorable:

Ned tells Arya that her lie about Nymeria having run away is "not without honor."

Ned also lies just before his beheading, when he announces to the assembled crowd that he plotted to murder Joffrey, and that Joffrey is the one true heir.  Presumably he does this as part of a deal to ensure his daughter's life.  But he does it.

So it's not like Ned is completely incapable of lying.  He is a truthful and honorable man.  But he can lie.  We need to pay attention when he does, because those lies are important.

[King Doug]

Obviously, the evidence is overwhelming to prove that Ned was living a lie for 14 years and that lie is most likely about Jon Snow.

I still think the most convincing argument that Jon's parents are indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Most specificaly, the presence of Lord Commander Hightower.

As I have seen Apple Martini point out before, the orders of the previous king are disregarded when that king dies. Therefore, they would not be held their by Rhaegar's (de facto king, I'm aware Aerys was the actual king) or anyone else's orders because those orders would have become null and void. They were kept there to fulfill their oath to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon dead it would pass to Jon.

I could believe that Arthur Dayne would stay to protect Rhaegar's son as a request from his dear friend, even if he was dead. But Rhaegar did not have the same relationship with Whent or Hightower. I think being the Lord Commander of the KG does something to a person's psyche and makes them more honorable than they may have been previously. I'm not saying that Hightower wasn't already an honorable man, but being LC intensified it. Look what happened to Jaime when he became LC. Sure there were other influences that helped drive his character change (Cersei sleeping around, being humbled by losing his hand) but I think it would be foolish to overlook his promotion as a factor as well.

That being said, I think that Lord Commander Hightower would be a man who values his oath and honor above all else. Ned even refers to the 3 KG at the ToJ as honorable men. And LC Hightower was there specifically to fulfill his oath to protect the new king, as were his KG compadres; Whent and Dayne.

Also, am I the only one entertained by everyone teaming up on the "troll"? Some people can't and won't be convinced. Funny stuff.

(edited typos...twice)

Edited by King Doug, 13 April 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Sasha Steelsong]

jon, on 12 April 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

I don't know how to multi quote or whatever so I'll just refute your bullshit point by point.

So you admit Ned isn't a person to and never did lie. GRRM never showed Ned as a liar ever. Yet according to you Ned was lieing in his own thoughts because he was hiding R+L=J from the reader. Like even in Ned's own thought R+L never equals J but whatever,

Then you go on to make out Jon as some mysterious Targaryan its bullshit.

I dunno, i would prove point by point why your post proves R+L does not equal J but you do a prett good job of proving my point and showing how stupid the point actually is.

I will also say this to the nay-sayers and pushers of this bullshit theory. How come you make so much effort hassling me when even if you believe R+L=J there is absolute bullshit theories out there, like Jon being the prince and saviour of all man kind. Jon being the hidden Targaryan king etc....

First off you're the one who started it by insulting everyone who believes otherwise. Your tone is determining the reception you're getting and frankly you deserve all the scorn you get cause that is all you put out there.

Second saying you're going to refute something is not the same as actually going point by point and doing it so your response above is basically wasted type and says nothing of substance aside from the point about Ned.

As for Ned not lying you have a piss poor memory for someone who supposedly has read GOT three times.  Ned is known far and wide as an honest person so no one questions his word, but he lied on the holy steps of Baelor's sept.  He lied and said to all present that Jofferey was Robert's true born son and that he had committed treason against him by trying to put himself of the throne. He lied to protect his family.  Proof directly from the text of the books that when push came to shove Ned would lie to protect his famliy. So no not whatever...proof that your little belief that Ned never lies is crap...you're confusing a reputation for honesty for a robot who can't lie.  Just becuase Ned is known far and wide for being honest does not mean he isn't capable of lies.  Especially when Ned himself thinks he has been living a lie for fourteen years (also from the text).

[King Doug]

Just to re-enforce my above point, copy and pasted from the wiki (hence all the underline and hyperlinks, I bolded the important part)...

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

(edited typos and formating)

Edited by King Doug, 13 April 2012 - 12:38 PM.