139 replies to this topic

[Frey Pie]

The Faceless Men(FM) are largely an unknown entity. We seem to know a lot about them yet this knowledge makes us ask even more questions. They originate from the slave mines of Valyria and gave the gift of death to slaves who no longer wished to live. When the founder heard a man praying for the death of his master instead he asked that the man give himself up heart and soul and so one FM becomes two.

Arya travels to Braavos and is a trainee of the FM. However it is stressed by the Kindly Man that one must not kill more then his/her intended target. Therefore when Arya kills Dareon she is punished. However it is widely assumed that the Alchemist is a FM under hire to find information on dragons. His target was not any specific man yet he kills one for his won benefit? Therefore is he a rogue assassin?

Jaqen must have killed indiscrimantly as a Bloody Mummer and part of Hoats gang. All those werent paid for i assume so is he rogue? Are he and the alchemist one? He paid back his own life and his friends with three more for Arya. Odd behaviour for a FM who under training would have been told to carry out the mission target alone and no others should be harmed.

Also how is the price named? We know FM dont have to kill people they know and so that clash of morals is under control. However it seems the FM have deviated from their origins. Will they kill anyone if the price is right? Dany has caused deaths but has saved many more. If the Lannisters were to hire the FM now would they do it? Does the cost go up for a better person? An example being if Stannis hired one to do away with Ramsey or vice versa would the price be the same for each?

Also are they the the enemy of dragons? Braavos consists of escaped slaves. Dany is freeing every slave she meets, but has dragons, the symbol of Valyrian power. Are the FM an unseen dagger at her throat? Is her life dependent on good behaviour i.e. freeing slaves?

[Frey Pie]

Think this started low down so im guna give her a bump

[CloudFlare]

There are probably two different kinds of killing for the Faceless Men.

The first are their contract killings. These are done for money and people outside the organization. Collateral damage is kept at a minimum to avoid repercussions.

The second type of killings are done to further the goals of the Faceless Men, whatever they may be. Jaqen and/or Syrio killed indiscriminately to protect Arya and guide her to joining the Faceless Men.

[Frey Pie]

Scent of Bacon, on 12 April 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

There are probably two different kinds of killing for the Faceless Men.

The first are their contract killings. These are done for money and people outside the organization. Collateral damage is kept at a minimum to avoid repercussions.

The second type of killings are done to further the goals of the Faceless Men, whatever they may be. Jaqen and/or Syrio killed indiscriminately to protect Arya and guide her to joining the Faceless Men.

Good thinking i like it. By that account it would seem if Jaqen is looking for the Death of Dragons book in the citadel that by killing Pate and infiltrating the citadel then he possibly isnt rogue but is actually furthering the will of the FM. This however would put them in direct oppostion to Dany

Also as you mentioned repercussions im surprised that FM never face any as far as we know of

[CloudFlare]

The FM are kind of weird. They're master assassins, who charge huge sums of money. They're known in Westoros, but used very, very rarely, e.g. Balon Greyjoy and Pate. They operate more in Essos, enough so they've got a reputation. On top of this operation, they have a temple system, which may or may not be known to the general public.

[Frey Pie]

Scent of Bacon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

The FM are kind of weird. They're master assassins, who charge huge sums of money. They're known in Westoros, but used very, very rarely, e.g. Balon Greyjoy and Pate. They operate more in Essos, enough so they've got a reputation. On top of this operation, they have a temple system, which may or may not be known to the general public.

I never thought of your last point. I assumed because Arya was dropped off there that people knew it was where the FM reside but now that you say it i highly doubt it. The temple seems like a fairly peaceful place from the descriptions. Perhaps its not well known that the FM are the hand of the Many Faced Gods?

[CloudFlare]

That's what I'm thinking. They've probably got an off site location where they meet with people looking to hire a FM, and they use intermediaries or disguises when meeting customers.

[ManyFacedOne]

Frey Pie, on 11 April 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Arya travels to Braavos and is a trainee of the FM. However it is stressed by the Kindly Man that one must not kill more then his/her intended target. Therefore when Arya kills Dareon she is punished.

She was promoted, not punished. Remember they were going to eventually blind her anyway but decided to move her along right away -- it showed them she's good at killing and has no qualms about it.

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However it is widely assumed that the Alchemist is a FM under hire to find information on dragons. His target was not any specific man yet he kills one for his won benefit? Therefore is he a rogue assassin?

Jaqen must have killed indiscrimantly as a Bloody Mummer and part of Hoats gang. All those werent paid for i assume so is he rogue? Are he and the alchemist one? He paid back his own life and his friends with three more for Arya. Odd behaviour for a FM who under training would have been told to carry out the mission target alone and no others should be harmed.

The mission is the important part. They can tell them whatever they want but, in the end, who's there to stop them?

Quote

Also how is the price named? We know FM dont have to kill people they know and so that clash of morals is under control. However it seems the FM have deviated from their origins. Will they kill anyone if the price is right? Dany has caused deaths but has saved many more. If the Lannisters were to hire the FM now would they do it? Does the cost go up for a better person? An example being if Stannis hired one to do away with Ramsey or vice versa would the price be the same for each?

Also are they the the enemy of dragons? Braavos consists of escaped slaves. Dany is freeing every slave she meets, but has dragons, the symbol of Valyrian power. Are the FM an unseen dagger at her throat? Is her life dependent on good behaviour i.e. freeing slaves?

The Faceless Men kill after much prayer and sacrifice (money and something else -- see the waif's story for an example). Any more specifics than that, we don't have. I'm sure as long as the price is right and they meet their sacrifice, then they'll take the contract. I doubt it matters what kind of person it is -- after all, how would they even judge something like that? As the Kindly Man says, death comes for the good and bad, it takes no sides, else the good would live forever. I'm pretty sure they operate the same way.

As for being the enemies of dragons, I'm still not sure on that. True, they were against the slave masters of Valyria -- who used dragons to enslave and conquer -- but Dany uses hers to free slaves; so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. Still, they're possibly preparing to meet that threat regardless.

Scent of Bacon, on 12 April 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

That's what I'm thinking. They've probably got an off site location where they meet with people looking to hire a FM, and they use intermediaries or disguises when meeting customers.

No, people know the FM operate out of the House of Black and White. That's where they come to talk to a priest and come to agreements.

[Frey Pie]

ManyFacedOne, on 12 April 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

She was promoted, not punished. Remember they were going to eventually blind her anyway but decided to move her along right away -- it showed them she's good at killing and has no qualms about it.




The mission is the important part. They can tell them whatever they want but, in the end, who's there to stop them?



The Faceless Men kill after much prayer and sacrifice (money and something else -- see the waif's story for an example). Any more specifics than that, we don't have. I'm sure as long as the price is right and they meet their sacrifice, then they'll take the contract. I doubt it matters what kind of person it is -- after all, how would they even judge something like that? As the Kindly Man says, death comes for the good and bad, it takes no sides, else the good would live forever. I'm pretty sure they operate the same way.

As for being the enemies of dragons, I'm still not sure on that. True, they were against the slave masters of Valyria -- who used dragons to enslave and conquer -- but Dany uses hers to free slaves; so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. Still, they're possibly preparing to meet that threat regardless.



No, people know the FM operate out of the House of Black and White. That's where they come to talk to a priest and come to agreements.

So if the missions the important thing then theyre allowed kill whoever gets in their way? I find it hard to believe such a revered and secret society would be so careless in their operations. Your right she was promotedbut i still think he was pretty pissed she revealed herslelf as Arya Stark.

It just seems to me theres an underlying morality to the goings on of the FM but this cant be true if all they recquire is that the price is right

[ManyFacedOne]

Frey Pie, on 12 April 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

So if the missions the important thing then theyre allowed kill whoever gets in their way? I find it hard to believe such a revered and secret society would be so careless in their operations.

I'm saying "allowed" doesn't come into it. If that helps them complete their mission, then yes, I'm sure they'll do whatever is necessary.

I'm pretty sure helping Arya kill three people wasn't part of Jaqen's mission, either, but he still did. They seem to operate individually, so there's really no one to say no to whatever they do.

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Your right she was promotedbut i still think he was pretty pissed she revealed herslelf as Arya Stark.

I think he was only displeased because she still lies so poorly. That's all.

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It just seems to me theres an underlying morality to the goings on of the FM but this cant be true if all they recquire is that the price is right

Well he says "prayer and sacrifice." Who knows what that entails?

Edited by ManyFacedOne, 12 April 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[bemused]

Arya has proven she can kill before they are aware she's ready to take that step. It's time to move her along since an important part of her training is to learn not to kill indiscriminately. Even Jaqen and Syrio ( if it applies to him  ) are not indiscriminate . I'm sure FM are allowed to defend themselves ,or another when under attack , as with Syrio. With Jaquen ,he felt free to enter into an agreement with Arya , but scrupulously kept to the letter of the agreement, drafting Rorge and Biter , who have no compunction about killing indiscriminately, to handle the overflow.

Of course , he may have had the leeway to do more himself if he chose, but wanted it to be a teaching moment for Arya as well.. we don't know yet.

It's obvious the cost of hiring a FM, is on a sliding scale in terms of wealth , but maybe there's also a personal cost ? sacrifice , besides in wealth , that always applies, no matter how great the financial price ..not just either / or ?

The FM may not make a moral judgement , themselves, in terms of whether they'll do a killing .But the price they name may very well reflect at  least some moral discernment.. I find them completely fascinating.

I wonder if the FM ranks might eventually turn out to be split into sort of regular forces and special forces. The regular forces handling run-of-the-mill assassinations and the special forces political intelligence and high profile political hits ?

Edited by bemused, 12 April 2012 - 06:41 PM.

[jarl the climber]

The thing I've been wondering about is why Pate(FM) was with Marwyn, is Marwyn aware of what he is? Is there any signifigance in the fact that he referred to himself as the alchemist? Pate is refered to as a novice of little promise, he shows no interest in magic or mentions any kind of relationship with Marwyn. Why is Marwyn letting him stay in the room while he is talking to Sam? I'm not really clear on what is going on there.

[bemused]

Does Pate refer to himself as the Alchemist ? I didn't think so ...( I'll have to re-read to check ) The FM refers to himself as an alchemist to Real Pate... Perhaps to ensure that poor dim Pate would bite on the poisoned gold coin to check that it was real.

I don't know what to think about Marwyn , either. He might not have a clue about Pate..or he might be working with him , though I can't think why. As an archmaester, Marwyn would have his own key , wouldn't he ? If they were working together, why would the Alchemist need Archmaester Walgrave's key ?

The other acolytes did encourage Pate to enroll with Marwyn. Maybe Marwyn thinks he's so dim , everything will go over his head. ..Maybe this new Pate appears to be getting a bit smarter..

[ManyFacedOne]

They were talking to Pate about Marwyn at the beginning of the book, so maybe the new Pate used that to get in with him.

Edited by ManyFacedOne, 12 April 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[Gogossos]

The FM are a fascinating (possible) intersection point of 3 or 4 threads. The first one is Dany connection - are they or aren't they on her side. She is a possible old enemy but then her deeds make her an ally. The second one is the possible Braavosi Bank involvement with Stannis and Cersei and the Iron throne, I presume the FM has a massive say in the bank policy. The third is Citadel connection, they are obviously interested in dragon lore and they seemed to give Sam a hand as well, and Sam's connection to Jon, it's quite intriguing really. The final obvious plot thread is Arya, they know she's from Winterfell, she's obviously not going to be another FM agent and they don't seem particularly bothered by that, which makes me think they have something up their collective sleeves.

Here is my half cooked theory. The FM are doing certain things at once:
1. Helping Jon (and Stannis) whose main aim is fighting the Others.
2. Help Dany, who is fighting slavery but that's ancillary, in order to assist Jon.

They are doing this because the Others are enemy number one, they defy the god of death. Dany has dragons, she will need to control them and and the Citadel has crucial information. Helping Dany might mean putting her on the Iron Throne, you can't have her wandering around but this goes against the helping Stannis bit ( so I need to have a think). Helping Stannis could be a way of mobilising the North,especially, for Jon's cause. Arya is Jon's sister, being a possible assassin for House Stark or Targ doesnt seem particularly necessary but using her to control Jon seems smart.

[Frey Pie]

Gogossos, on 13 April 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

The FM are a fascinating (possible) intersection point of 3 or 4 threads. The first one is Dany connection - are they or aren't they on her side. She is a possible old enemy but then her deeds make her an ally. The second one is the possible Braavosi Bank involvement with Stannis and Cersei and the Iron throne, I presume the FM has a massive say in the bank policy. The third is Citadel connection, they are obviously interested in dragon lore and they seemed to give Sam a hand as well, and Sam's connection to Jon, it's quite intriguing really. The final obvious plot thread is Arya, they know she's from Winterfell, she's obviously not going to be another FM agent and they don't seem particularly bothered by that, which makes me think they have something up their collective sleeves.

Here is my half cooked theory. The FM are doing certain things at once:
1. Helping Jon (and Stannis) whose main aim is fighting the Others.
2. Help Dany, who is fighting slavery but that's ancillary, in order to assist Jon.

They are doing this because the Others are enemy number one, they defy the god of death. Dany has dragons, she will need to control them and and the Citadel has crucial information. Helping Dany might mean putting her on the Iron Throne, you can't have her wandering around but this goes against the helping Stannis bit ( so I need to have a think). Helping Stannis could be a way of mobilising the North,especially, for Jon's cause. Arya is Jon's sister, being a possible assassin for House Stark or Targ doesnt seem particularly necessary but using her to control Jon seems smart.

Think you hit the nail on the head there with the FM being enemies of the Others as they defy death. One of the only certain things we know about the FM is that death is sacred to them and the wights by cheating death are causing an imbalance in the world. This is, of course, assuming that the Braavosi and FM by extension believe the crazy tales coming from the Wall.

Perhaps Braavos is only looking into the immediate future. Both Stannis and Dany are needed to fight the Others. The iron throne can wait until the enemy has been defeated

Theres also the connection between Dorne and Braavos but as yet there seems to be no FM involvement in that

[Prince of the North]

bemused, on 12 April 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

I don't know what to think about Marwyn , either. He might not have a clue about Pate..or he might be working with him , though I can't think why. As an archmaester, Marwyn would have his own key , wouldn't he ? If they were working together, why would the Alchemist need Archmaester Walgrave's key ?

Hmm, yeah, good question.  I don't quite know what to think of marwyn yet either.  However, I think Jaqen/Alchemist is at the Citadel for information.  And I think that information will be in the form of writings about dragons.  Perhaps the Citadel could have something like this still in its possession and someone who is pro-dragon would want to get it out of their hands?  Or maybe someone who is anti-dragon would want to get it in order to learn more about eliminating dragons?  I tend to lean toward the former because I subscribe to the theory that at least some maesters were behind the elimination of the last Targaryen dragons.

[Skrubbeltrang]

Jaqen H'gar is definitely not a rogue FM agent. When he says goodbye to Arya he hands her the coin and says that if she ever wants to find him she should use it. Why would he do that if he is not still working with the FM? If he still wasn't on good terms with the FM then Arya wouldn't be able to use the coin to reach him.
As for the Alchemist I think the information gathering is only a means to an end, namely the assassination of yet an unlucky person. I don't see any real indication of the FM having their own grand political agenda or really doing anything else than facilitating murder and becoming rich.

[Frey Pie]

Prince of the North, on 13 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Hmm, yeah, good question.  I don't quite know what to think of marwyn yet either.  However, I think Jaqen/Alchemist is at the Citadel for information.  And I think that information will be in the form of writings about dragons.  Perhaps the Citadel could have something like this still in its possession and someone who is pro-dragon would want to get it out of their hands?  Or maybe someone who is anti-dragon would want to get it in order to learn more about eliminating dragons?  I tend to lean toward the former because I subscribe to the theory that at least some maesters were behind the elimination of the last Targaryen dragons.

See the way id look at this is that they have the dagger to her throat. They may be waiting to see what way hr actions go but as the famous quote goes-if you want peace prepare for war.  Having the Sealord and the FM on Danys side would make her very formidable

Skrubbeltrang, on 13 April 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Jaqen H'gar is definitely not a rogue FM agent. When he says goodbye to Arya he hands her the coin and says that if she ever wants to find him she should use it. Why would he do that if he is not still working with the FM? If he still wasn't on good terms with the FM then Arya wouldn't be able to use the coin to reach him.
As for the Alchemist I think the information gathering is only a means to an end, namely the assassination of yet an unlucky person. I don't see any real indication of the FM having their own grand political agenda or really doing anything else than facilitating murder and becoming rich.

I feel your last point is perhaps underestimating them. Their history is rich in morality. They would have to go far from the apple tree to work just for the pleasure of killing and gathering riches

[Skrubbeltrang]

Frey Pie, on 14 April 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

See the way id look at this is that they have the dagger to her throat. They may be waiting to see what way hr actions go but as the famous quote goes-if you want peace prepare for war.  Having the Sealord and the FM on Danys side would make her very formidable

I feel your last point is perhaps underestimating them. Their history is rich in morality. They would have to go far from the apple tree to work just for the pleasure of killing and gathering riches

You are correct that the history of the FM is rich with morality. How else could one justify the murders and assassinations that the FM do?
I believe that there is more to the story about the origins of the FM. Remember, we have this story from the FM themselves and it could be influenced by their viewpoint. I have a feeling that the FM are a little more corrupt and a little less religious than one might think. For instance, it is insinuated in the books that the way targets for assassination are chosen is based on offerings (probably gold) made to the many-faced-god. This seems pretty corrupt to me and not consistent with the moral values presented in the origin of FM story. What do you think?