139 replies to this topic

[Gogossos]

Frey Pie, on 08 June 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Also i never thought of this. Does the Sealord and hence ironbank know Arya Stark is training to be an assassin in their city? Will they use her and how?

The Kindly Man certainly knows who she is (Jaqen knew as well). But to answer your question, it boils down to what kind of relationship there is between the Sealord and the FM (and the Iron Bank as well). In my long post I implied that the relationship is very close indeed.

If we assume that Baavosi institutions are coordinated, then it explains some things that are not immediately obvious. Arya has been kept, and her training accelerated, despite not rejecting her name. The short answer is that the FM are playing a long game, like I said, they know her true value to the North and hence to anyone with designs on the Iron Throne. Like Dany. And if they want her dragons, they can give her Arya - who also wants to kill a few Lannisters of her own, so two birds with one stone - or they can support Stannis who will still need Arya. Arya's political value diminishes the moment Bran or Rickon show up claiming Winterfell or if Sansa makes a move of her own but the FM know she is valuable enough for someone to claim a fake Arya as real.

Having said that, I don't think the Sealord knows that Arya is in their midst, analogous to how a President wouldn't know most operational details until the CIA decided that it was necessary. I don't even think most of the assassins around the table were aware that the newest trainee was a Stark kid. I think that type of information would be tightly held until necessity dictated otherwise.

[Darth Rivers]

A correction: The guy the offed was not a banker, sorry, he was an insurance man.

[Frey Pie]

Darth Rivers, on 08 June 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

About that, I doubt anyone would pay huge sums of money to off a simple banker. I think it has to do with the value of a target, since some are more equal than others. Or in this case more expensive to reach and more dangerous to kill.

As for the temple system, everyone in Braavos knows that. The point of the iron coin and "valar morghulis" is to show them that you're a faceless man. And by helping you they might just save their lives later.

This is what the thread is in essence about. I also believe that the more "common" a target is the less it costs. But is there a moral side also? Will they kill only bad people or does it cost more to a good person? You cant say its all about the money when you remember their beginning and origins

Night gathers, on 08 June 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Yes, Jaqen is the Alchemist. They have the exact same description of their features.

I believe that the features of Jaqen is also quiet like Daario but i agree Jaqen and the Alchemist are probably one and the same

[Frey Pie]

Gogossos, on 08 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The Kindly Man certainly knows who she is (Jaqen knew as well). But to answer your question, it boils down to what kind of relationship there is between the Sealord and the FM (and the Iron Bank as well). In my long post I implied that the relationship is very close indeed.

If we assume that Baavosi institutions are coordinated, then it explains some things that are not immediately obvious. Arya has been kept, and her training accelerated, despite not rejecting her name. The short answer is that the FM are playing a long game, like I said, they know her true value to the North and hence to anyone with designs on the Iron Throne. Like Dany. And if they want her dragons, they can give her Arya - who also wants to kill a few Lannisters of her own, so two birds with one stone - or they can support Stannis who will still need Arya. Arya's political value diminishes the moment Bran or Rickon show up claiming Winterfell or if Sansa makes a move of her own but the FM know she is valuable enough for someone to claim a fake Arya as real.

Having said that, I don't think the Sealord knows that Arya is in their midst, analogous to how a President wouldn't know most operational details until the CIA decided that it was necessary. I don't even think most of the assassins around the table were aware that the newest trainee was a Stark kid. I think that type of information would be tightly held until necessity dictated otherwise.

Gogs you seem to say at the start that theres a tight relationship between them and then that you dont think the Sealord knows Aryas around? I also believe that the relationship between the three institutions in Braavos are tight. But whos in charge? Theres no doubt that the Kindly Man knows who Arya is. You cant lie to the FM. But i agree that most wouldnt know but i would find it hard to believe that if the institutions are close and in contact that the heads of each would not know they have a powerful noble and possible heir to a kingdom in their midst.

At a stretch now-what are the chances they know Aryas a warg? She wargs a cat and manages to strike the Kindly man when shes blinded. Does he realise how she does it? Is she their secret weapon?

[Chapmann]

I think this topic is extremely interesting and it's been fun to read. My only concern is that there are too many assumptions being made about Braavos and how it is governed.

Braavos
When we talk of Braavos we talk of it as a nation with a streamlined goal and different arms of government. I on the other hand am not so sure that the Faceless Men, the Iron Bank and the Sealord are always of the same opinion and have the same goals. The city was obviously founded by former slaves from Valyria who might have had some part in the Doom (whatever that was) but we don't know what actual part the Faceless Men took in the whole conflict or if they were simply performing their activities due to their convictions of serving Death.

Iron Bank - From what we know they were lending Robert money and he was heavily indebted to them due to the machinations of Littlefinger as Master of Coin. When Cersei as Tommen's Regent reneged on the agreement they went to Stannis to work out a deal on how to get their money paid back by the crown. The deal with the Night's Watch to me seemed as more of an opportunity that presented itself when Jon brought it up and not something which was planned by the Iron Bank. I think Tycho Nestoris was simply there to meet with Stannis and happened to make a deal with Jon as well. They are foremost a bank and might be owned by several different powerful merchant families which do business with many different clients. There is no proof that they are working directly for the city of Braavos or even the Sealord and his interests. If I remember correctly they are not the only bank in Braavos and might just serve the economic interests of certain powerful people in the city.

Sealord - From what we know here is that the current Sealord is sick and dying and that people are expecting him to be replaced by someone else. But who choses the Sealord and how is his position filled? Does anyone know? Also there was a Sealord who was observing the agreement between Dorne and Willem Darry but are we sure that they are the same person? When Darry died, the Targaryens were pushed out onto the street and the Sealord did not seem to take a large interest in them and they were even eventually forced to sell their mother's crown.

Faceless Men - They are obviously a powerful organisation of assassins and have certain kinds of magic at their disposal but from what we have seen they do not make the decisions on who are to be killed and do not seem to have their own agenda form what the Kindly Man has told us. This might not be true as the evidence points towards the Alchemist being a Faceless Man on a mission in the Citadel which might have something to do with the death of dragons. My question here is: Don't the Faceless Men employ magic and might it be the case that their magic might also have become stronger with the reemergence of dragons? Why would they want to kill of the dragons if it increases their power? Also, we don't really know what purpose Jaqen had in the black cells and how he ended up there.

I'm not really convinced that when we are talking of Braavos as a whole that it includes all three different organisations. To me, when we talk of Braavos we are talking of perhaps the Sealord and other powerful families in the city but maybe not necessarily the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men as well. Why is it not possible that they are independent organisations with different goals which might sometime overlap and a lot of the time might not?

Edited by Chapmann, 08 June 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[bemused]

I need to re-read , but is it Tyrion who thinks..the sealord is dying , and when he does , the knives will come out. That's the way it is , in Braavos... ?..That definitely implies some internal power struggles... But when it's elsewhere observed that rulers who renege on agreements with the Iron Bank, suddenly die and are replaced by more agreeable parties...it raises the question of whether the IB isn't the most powerful arm of the triumverate , in a way. A change in ruler, abroad, wouldn't necessarily harm trade ( though it would be a big deal if it did ).

For whom or for what purpose are the FM trained to gather information ( beyond just observing their targets ) , if they don't have a religious reason .. and they don't seem to, from what we know so far.

It seems that they may all have their own separate activities , but if there's any question of what's best for Braavos in a given situation, I think they can come together and focus pretty quickly , with the FM at the disposal of the other 2 branches / entities as the course of last resort.

ETA;( I have to do this in bits ) We don't know when the Iron Bank was founded and with what money. Because Braavos was hidden for so long, there's still a lot of mystery surrounding it. I can't imagine it would be impossible to contact the FM for all that time , though. Considering the rates charged by the FM, and the fact that they are not a prosyletizing religion, don't build big temples in every city, don't recruit "clergy" in vast numbers...what did/do they do with all that wealth ?

Edited by bemused, 08 June 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[Gogossos]

Frey Pie, on 08 June 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Gogs you seem to say at the start that theres a tight relationship between them and then that you dont think the Sealord knows Aryas around?

You are right it does sound contradictory but the point I was trying to make was that I believe these organisations are tight but ultimately I independent of each other. If the Kindly Man knew of Arya, the assumption is that he would tell the Sealord or the Iron Bank if it became pertinent but not immediately. If the situation arose with Jon, they have the option of saying "Hey dude, we have your sister the real one." But for the time being, Arya wouldn't be able to run around Braavos anornimously learning to spy discreetly if the Sealord and a bunch of other people knew who she was. If her training is to continue uninterrupted the Kindly Man must allow her to keep her secret a little while longer.

Frey Pie, on 08 June 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

At a stretch now-what are the chances they know Aryas a warg? She wargs a cat and manages to strike the Kindly man when shes blinded. Does he realise how she does it? Is she their secret weapon?

I think Arya has been careful but one can't underestimate the Kindly Man. It's possible he suspected but couldn't prove it.

Chapmann, on 08 June 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

My question here is: Don't the Faceless Men employ magic and might it be the case that their magic might also have become stronger with the reemergence of dragons? Why would they want to kill of the dragons if it increases their power?

Good point. But just to reiterate a few ideas already mentioned: if Dany becomes too powerful in Essos; if she fell for the Pentos/Illyrio side; maybe they want her dragons instead of her; conversely they might like her campaign but not necessarily her dragons, etc. Dany, with the only 3 dragons in the world, will become extremely powerful over time if she is allowed to gain full control over them and it is not wise to ignore a future important political player like that. Killing the dragons was an option when they were small and might remain an option (if the former Jaqen is successful) if Dany can't be controlled or she's going the "wrong" direction but it doesn't necessarily mean the option has to be taken up.

Chapmann, on 08 June 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

I'm not really convinced that when we are talking of Braavos as a whole that it includes all three different organisations. To me, when we talk of Braavos we are talking of perhaps the Sealord and other powerful families in the city but maybe not necessarily the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men as well. Why is it not possible that they are independent organisations with different goals which might sometime overlap and a lot of the time might not?

Why not indeed. But if I was the Sealord, the FM and the Iron Bank are powerful tools I wouldn't be able to resist not using. Alternatively, the FM are skilled enough to kill off a troublesome Sealord, maybe they are the ones in charge. Similarly, the Iron Bank is powerful enough to orchestrate regime change elsewhere, so why not at home too? For me, the only way these 3 can exist in equilibrium is if there is an overriding aligned self interest. The FM wouldn't want a KL scenario on their doorstep, and whoever controls the Iron Bank might also influence who the next Sealord is. However, I do agree that these are largely independent organisations but with largely common goals.

bemused, on 08 June 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

But when it's elsewhere observed that rulers who renege on agreements with the Iron Bank, suddenly die and are replaced by more agreeable parties...it raises the question of whether the IB isn't the most powerful arm of the triumverate , in a way.

I actually think the FM are the most powerful of the 3, mainly because of how potent they can be. But they have this "religion" that restricts them in a way. The Iron Bank projects more power abroad certainly, money can buy you favours. However, you can't lend if  you don't have the capacity to demand your money back and it makes sense to me that this capacity, in fact, comes from the FM. Some nobleman behaving funny? Send an assassin to teach him and everybody else a lesson. I bet that's how the IB became powerful.

[Frey Pie]

bemused, on 08 June 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I need to re-read , but is it Tyrion who thinks..the sealord is dying , and when he does , the knives will come out. That's the way it is , in Braavos... ?..That definitely implies some internal power struggles... But when it's elsewhere observed that rulers who renege on agreements with the Iron Bank, suddenly die and are replaced by more agreeable parties...it raises the question of whether the IB isn't the most powerful arm of the triumverate , in a way. A change in ruler, abroad, wouldn't necessarily harm trade ( though it would be a big deal if it did ).

ETA;( I have to do this in bits ) We don't know when the Iron Bank was founded and with what money. Because Braavos was hidden for so long, there's still a lot of mystery surrounding it. I can't imagine it would be impossible to contact the FM for all that time , though. Considering the rates charged by the FM, and the fact that they are not a prosyletizing religion, don't build big temples in every city, don't recruit "clergy" in vast numbers...what did/do they do with all that wealth ?

Theres other men who are sick and dieing also-Lord Hightower and Lord Manderly. We already know Manderlys playing a blinder so i wouldnt take this as proof.

Gogossos, on 08 June 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

You are right it does sound contradictory but the point I was trying to make was that I believe these organisations are tight but ultimately I independent of each other. If the Kindly Man knew of Arya, the assumption is that he would tell the Sealord or the Iron Bank if it became pertinent but not immediately. If the situation arose with Jon, they have the option of saying "Hey dude, we have your sister the real one." But for the time being, Arya wouldn't be able to run around Braavos anornimously learning to spy discreetly if the Sealord and a bunch of other people knew who she was. If her training is to continue uninterrupted the Kindly Man must allow her to keep her secret a little while longer.


Why not indeed. But if I was the Sealord, the FM and the Iron Bank are powerful tools I wouldn't be able to resist not using. Alternatively, the FM are skilled enough to kill off a troublesome Sealord, maybe they are the ones in charge. Similarly, the Iron Bank is powerful enough to orchestrate regime change elsewhere, so why not at home too? For me, the only way these 3 can exist in equilibrium is if there is an overriding aligned self interest. The FM wouldn't want a KL scenario on their doorstep, and whoever controls the Iron Bank might also influence who the next Sealord is. However, I do agree that these are largely independent organisations but with largely common goals.

I actually think the FM are the most powerful of the 3, mainly because of how potent they can be. But they have this "religion" that restricts them in a way. The Iron Bank projects more power abroad certainly, money can buy you favours. However, you can't lend if  you don't have the capacity to demand your money back and it makes sense to me that this capacity, in fact, comes from the FM. Some nobleman behaving funny? Send an assassin to teach him and everybody else a lesson. I bet that's how the IB became powerful.

The last2parts of these posts got me thinking. I also think initially that the FM were the most powerful. We know they have their origin in Valyrias mines. We know that Braavos was set up by fleeing prisoners and led by the moonsingers. Is it a huge stretch to think theres a few new FM among them? Where did the money come from to set up the IB? Once theyve settled down the FM could easily use the money they charge to help set it up. But the FM arent perfect leaders for a city state. Theyr best working in the shadows. So the Sealord-the military and economic arm of the triumvirate are elected to lead. I find it hard to believe they arent all in cahoots. Perhaps they have different motives sometimes but all for the good of Braavos. And i find it hard to think the IB  and FM dont have a hand in deciding who succeeds to the head of government.

I also wonder if the Kindly Man knows are they keeping Arya and training her as a possible deterrent to the dragons? Bit of a stretch i know. But if you think as i do that theyre not for or against Dany but are wary then theyr in a perfect position-they may have a spy in her camp, theyre looking for a way to kill her dragons and they perhaps are training one of the only weapons against dragons

[ghotibowl]

I briefly skimmed this topic so sorry if this has already been said!

So an idea just dawned on me (and this is if the Iron Bank and Faceless Men are working together). One possibility as to why the Iron Bank was so quick to lend Jon money is because they know the FM have Arya and can hold her as collateral/ransom (assuming they know how important she is to him and/or to the kingdom). If Arya doesn't escape on her own (and I say escape because I honestly don't believe they're going to let her leave alive after she's already seen so much), they'll turn her into the waif #2 or something--a sacrifice to the temple--if Jon doesn't repay them.

Just an idea I wanted to throw out there

[Artemis]

Gogossos, on 08 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The Kindly Man certainly knows who she is (Jaqen knew as well). But to answer your question, it boils down to what kind of relationship there is between the Sealord and the FM (and the Iron Bank as well). In my long post I implied that the relationship is very close indeed.

I think we're forgetting a big, big part of the Braavosi puzzle. They are mentioned here and there throughout this post but for some reason, I can't seem to shake the feeling that their presence is paramount in Braavos. Braavos was founded by the Moonsingers that led slaves from the Valyrian Freehold up to northern Essos. If any group or institution would wield the most power or influence over Braavos, it would be them. At the very least, the Moonsingers are dispersed throughout the Iron Bank, the FM, and within the Sealord's palace. The fact that they even found such a place as Braavos which is situated amongst a lagoon and always surrounded by dense mist/fog making it difficult to find by anyone or anything (like the dragons) is somewhat interesting.

[Artemis]

Bran Vras, on 26 April 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

I think you are right to bring up the Dornishmen. It's clear that Dorne plays an active role in the politics of the Free Cities (Doran's wife is Norvoshi, Doran has fostered the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh, there is the pact with the Sealord, Oberyn has funded a sellsword company etc). We would need to have a good picture of the politics of the Free Cities. There are scattered hints that I am currently considering gathering.

Not only that, the people of the Rhoynar fled with Nymeria to Dorne on her 10,000 ships once the Valyrian Freehold invaded. Dorne's descendants have quite a lot of Essosi blood, especially those of House Martell.

[Frey Pie]

ghotibowl, on 09 June 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I briefly skimmed this topic so sorry if this has already been said!

So an idea just dawned on me (and this is if the Iron Bank and Faceless Men are working together). One possibility as to why the Iron Bank was so quick to lend Jon money is because they know the FM have Arya and can hold her as collateral/ransom (assuming they know how important she is to him and/or to the kingdom). If Arya doesn't escape on her own (and I say escape because I honestly don't believe they're going to let her leave alive after she's already seen so much), they'll turn her into the waif #2 or something--a sacrifice to the temple--if Jon doesn't repay them.

Just an idea I wanted to throw out there

Quite possible but i cant see that happening. Shes getting a bit dangerous now to be using as a hostage

Artemis, on 09 June 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I think we're forgetting a big, big part of the Braavosi puzzle. They are mentioned here and there throughout this post but for some reason, I can't seem to shake the feeling that their presence is paramount in Braavos. Braavos was founded by the Moonsingers that led slaves from the Valyrian Freehold up to northern Essos. If any group or institution would wield the most power or influence over Braavos, it would be them. At the very least, the Moonsingers are dispersed throughout the Iron Bank, the FM, and within the Sealord's palace. The fact that they even found such a place as Braavos which is situated amongst a lagoon and always surrounded by dense mist/fog making it difficult to find by anyone or anything (like the dragons) is somewhat interesting.

I was thinking about them too and i think you may be right. They surely wield a huge ammount of influence and must have some say in government. Not sure how they work in with Dany and dragons though or the other institutions in Braavos. As far as we know theyve had no role in the storyline so far. The red priests seem far more active politically

[Frey Pie]

I was just on the heresy thread there when this came to me. Balon was supposedly killed by a FM of Braavos, wether this was Jaqen is up for speculation. Then Euron showed up and called a Kingsmoot, meaning that most of the occupying forces the ironmen had up north had to be removed. Now it is assumed that although Mel did some crazy shit with a leech, that Euron hired the FM to kill his brother. How did he pay? Well theres the interesting story on how Euron threw away a dragons egg into the sea. This seems a  bit much to me-dragons eggs are priceless, and this story may have a reason for being mentioned. So Euron pays the FM with a dragons egg.

It was pointed out that this doesnt seem enough to kill a King. However, what if Braavos had already desired to help the North as they are beginning to hear rumours beyond the wall, and because Cersei is going back on the deal? So by removing a large force of ironmen the Braavosi clear a path for Stannis and then do deals with him and Jon. In the meantime they also send the Alchemist to find out more about dragons, when they have conveniently just acquired one.....

Too much?

[Gogossos]

Too much but I like it. I honestly think it would be too ellaborate but logically it works. Killing Balon effectively puts Euron in, who then quickly dispatches Vic to Dany. In the meantime, in the kingsmoot, he talked about having bigger ambitions and controlling all of Westeros. Obviously he was thinking of using Dany and/or her dragons but he needs backers for such a grand scheme. Backers like the Braavosi perhaps, who unbeknown to him, have their own fish to fry.

It sounds good but it has a lot of moving parts. Too many things left to chance or not u der complete control. If Euron can completely control a dragon, can he be controlled? If I was the Sealord, I would want to control that dragon myself or someone I have complete trust in, someone whose future is completely interlinked with us. Stannis is a puppet who becomes expendable once Dany arrives with her dragons, Euron is a loose end if he can control one dragon, Dany herself seems to have a strong independent streak (or her advisors do). That leaves Jon, his survival and route to the throne is not clear but it's there. What's more, he could be linked to Braavosi interests via Arya and the NW loan. On top of that, he can, if supported get Dany on his side.

[bemused]

My little voice is crying in the wilderness again.. Guys , I just have this deep sense that George might be playing with us . " A man without a face " , as seen by the dwarf woman at High Heart, doesn't necessarily have to be a faceless man , especially when Euron has been dealing with wizards from the House of the Undying , and especially since we know the FM are not the only ones who can achieve a convincing glamour, seeming , impersonation , etcetera. The wet, seaweedy crow clearly identifies the figure with Euron , but there's room for doubt about how , exactly.

I think the FM would think twice about entering into a contract with someone who was bound to create even more havoc in Westeros ( and potentially, Essos as well ) than was already present in the rulership of Balon ..thereby endangering existing IB dealings and Braavosi commerce. If dragons are nukes , I don't think Braavos wants to join the arms race to win it .. they'll be working for at least detente , if not disarmament . I think their interests lie in a strong , stable Westeros because I think they need those commercial ties. They may trade everywhere , but their commercial activities in Essos must be fraught with complications and restrictions since the slave trade ( to which they're strongly opposed ) drives so much of commerce in the Free Cities and elswhere.

I think if Euron actually ever had a dragon's egg and paid it to anyone for help in his schemes ,it would more likely be the HotU wizards , who we already know wanted to take possession of Dany's dragons .Being Euron ,he'd then plan to go them one better and take control of Dany and her dragons himself. There's no surety they could hatch the egg anyway.

[Gogossos]

Euron is a risk but he is in league with someone. Someone has bet on him.

[Frey Pie]

True but i can definately say it isnt Braaos. They arent fans of slaves and i dont think changing the word to thralls will change that.

[Gogossos]

I mentioned this in passing earlier but how about Doran Martell? He is a tactician and yet, viewed in isolation, his Quentyn task to Dany seemed like a hail mary last throw of the dice. But I refuse to believe that. He specifically invoked an agreement that involved the Sealord of Braavos. He wouldn't do that without the agreement of Braavos, would he? He has since then sent the Sand Snakes to the High Septon, the Lannister Small Council, the Citadel and no doubt Arianne will check out Aegon. I don't know what the ladies will actually do or achieve but it sure seems too coordinated. The kind that Braavos, with their assassins and bankers, will be involved in.

[Frey Pie]

Gogossos, on 21 June 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

I mentioned this in passing earlier but how about Doran Martell? He is a tactician and yet, viewed in isolation, his Quentyn task to Dany seemed like a hail mary last throw of the dice. But I refuse to believe that. He specifically invoked an agreement that involved the Sealord of Braavos. He wouldn't do that without the agreement of Braavos, would he? He has since then sent the Sand Snakes to the High Septon, the Lannister Small Council, the Citadel and no doubt Arianne will check out Aegon. I don't know what the ladies will actually do or achieve but it sure seems too coordinated. The kind that Braavos, with their assassins and bankers, will be involved in.

Theres no doubt in my mind that Doran is into a lot more then meets the eye. Hes constantly plotting-not many people spend that much time watching children play, theres more to it. Hes got a spy ring i would say and hes sendig them into the places of power all over Westeros. Wether the theories about Quentyn not being a Martell or not is true i dont know but Dorans far to smart to pin his hopes on that quest.

And George didnt just randomly throw the Sealord into that. Theres a reason but i cant figure it out as of yet! If we got some new eyes in here perhaps it would help

[bemused]

I'm just sort of thinking this through as I type , so I wouldn't cast this in stone but..just from random references throughout the books...

Let's see , Dany is 13 at the start of the series, right ? Back in her infancy , the secret marriage pact was made, witnessed by the Sealord , signed by Darry and Oberyn ...Perhaps following this ,Oberyn forms his company of sellswords , and one could speculate that his original intention in this was something along the lines of the Golden company, to provide a support force for Viserys / Dany when they return to Westeros ( but that's a side speculation ).

It seems to me that the Sealord must have been something more than an official witness , since the house with the red door seems more than just a rental. Yes , Doran could have been footing the bill from Dorne , but I don't think he can have been their sole source of support. I think possibly the Sealord was contributing to their support as well .
( I don't really have time to do a search till later , but there's something about the colours of doors of the buildings in Braavos being a sign of who or what institutions they belong to that's sort of niggling at me. We know , of course , about the HoBaW, but I seem to recall other passing references to door colours from Arya's travels in the city . )

However that turns out , the SERVANTS in the house turn V & D out when Darry dies , which makes me think that the house is owned / run by some powerful person / institution . Dany remembers Darry as old , which makes us accept his death as natural , and quite possibly it was , but you would think, either way , Dany and Viserys would still have whatever financial support they may have been recieving from Doran ( and the Sealord , if he was more than a witness )...Darry only signed on their behalf, he was not actually a principal in the agreement.

I'm feeling that when Darry died, the Sealord also died , and his successor didn't want to continue in the agreement . The servants are not mere hirelings , but serve the office of the Sealord.

Another possible vague clue to this ( one that delights me ) is that 13 years after the pact , we have the " first sword to the Sealord of Braavos " , hiring himself out as a fencing master in KL. ( This could open the whole Syrio can of worms..either the first sword does run, or at least have the good sense to leave where he's no longer wanted..or if you subscribe to the Syrio = FM line of thought, maybe he didn't run and was killed, or sought an end at the HoBaW ... He's not immortal ..but that's incidental to this thread . )

It's Arya who thinks , in ADWD that " when the Sealord dies , the knives come out "..If the succeeding Sealord is of a different faction ,  purges could be a common thing , and old though he may have been , Darry's death may have followed the death of the Sealord , and may not have been as natural as we've assumed.

Perhaps with the death of the current Sealord and the installation of a new one , Dany's star may rise in Braavos. Doesn't the Kindly man state, or imply that the Sealord has been dying for some time ? A lot of the FM / Alchemist activity we've seen might just be to be as ready as possible , as informed as possible as to where all factions stand in anticipation of this turnover.

Edited by bemused, 22 June 2012 - 02:29 PM.