119 replies to this topic

[eyeheartsansa]

BabyMeraxes, on 12 April 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

I thought Brienne's chapters were by far the lamest in the entire series UNTIL I started my AFfC re-read. Her arch really grew on me, and her perpective might be the most interesting in the 4th book. Also, I know a lot of people are saying her chapters were pretty boring, and three months ago I would've agreed with you, but she gets some pretty serious action sequences in Crows, more than any other character. She's got the battle with the Bloody Mummers, and the fight with Biter. She's also the only chracter that's given us some perspective on Lady Stoneheart. All-in-all, I give Brienne about a B+.

I'm with you on that.  While she is far from the highlight of the series, her stuff definitely holds up.  Everything is better on the second/third read, if you have the time.

[Valder]

BogginsTheDog, on 12 April 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

I enjoyed her chapters but I must admit that her wild goose chase in AFFC was a drag as we KNEW that she wouldn't find Sansa. Kinda makes her trek around Westeros a rather pointless plotline in terms of entertainment.

I think this is key.  Bran's quest is fundamentally different from Brienne's "quest" because we know that Bran has a destination and we're curious to see what that destination is.  For Brienne, the reader already knows where Sansa is and therefore knows that Brienne isn't even looking in the right place.  I'm very reluctant in general to criticize GRRM's writing, but I think he committed a cardinal storytelling sin here by relying too much on the reader giving him the benefit of the doubt in a particular story arc.  You can only get so far on the dramatic irony of readers knowing something that the POV character does not -- if it lasted for one or two chapters before that tension was resolved it wouldn't be a problem at all.  But the entirety of Brienne's arc in AFFC passes without Brienne ever learning the truth about Sansa, making it a constant distraction during her chapters.  I'm not trying to argue that her chapters weren't interesting or well written.  But if every time the character states her goal as "I'm trying to find Sansa," the reader thinks "well, I know that you're never going to find her," it triggers an automatic disengagement from the story -- one that has to be overcome in order to achieve the immersion that is so effortless in most of the rest of the books.  One could say the same thing about Cersei POV chapters, where it's clear that many of her thoughts are divorced from reality, but at least she's so central to the main story that there's still reason to keep reading to see how her actions affect other characters and plotlines.  With Brienne, she was literally wandering in the wilderness, so you pretty much had to give up trying to figure out the "point" of her story and instead just enjoy the scenery.

Overall, I like Brienne as a character, I agree with those that appreciate her ability to provide a foil for less honorable characters, and I really liked how GRRM used her chapters to add realism and world-building to the story.  But I found it unfortunate that GRRM designed her story arc in such a way that made her chapters more difficult to get through.

Edited by Valder, 12 April 2012 - 11:24 AM.

[Wilbur]

Corm, on 12 April 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

I liked Brienne but I don't see either of these as what she served to do. The brutality of war was more evident in Arya's chapters with the BWB I thought and he could have put Septon Meribald anywhere really. And with loose ends, I don't think an entire character arc was needed to hint that the Hound is alive and well on the Quiet Isle.

That's me playing devil's advocate, I liked her

I agree, GRRM could have used any number of means other than Brienne's plot arc to accomplish those ends.

However, this way he gets to introduce another maimed / disfigured creature and probably hopeless quest into the story, and I think we are the better for it.

Consider her circumstances and the range of environments that Brienne experiences, from the luxury of Renly's movable feast to the penury of her jaunt down to the Crabs; from the burgeoning nobility that is Pod's character to the inflexibility of to the earthy goodness of

Septon Maribald

to the world-weary worldview Hyle Hunt - it is all a rounded addition to the seamy underbelly of Westeros.

Finally, the cognitive dissonance that comes every time she declares her quest ("I'm looking for...") heightens the tension for the reader.  You know that she isn't going to be successful in finding Sansa, and you begin to dread what she WILL find.  GRRM lets us off with false hope when she and Pod defeat the Mummers, and then sucker punches us at the inn with Biter, and then finally drops the load of bricks on us with Uncat.

Edited by Wilbur, 12 April 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Melpomene]

Nope, definitely don't hate her.

She genuinely tries to be a good person, and she gets brownie points for that. And you have to admire that strength, not everyone could fight through living a unconventional role and dealing with insults 24/7.



What I didn't like about some of her chapters in AFFC was the unnecessary descriptions of little details...the tables, the drinks, trees...oi, why. Felt like there was so much of it.


But, you can get a sense of buildup towards the end - if it continues on well enough, and assuming Brienne will have POV's in WoW, then it could be a very ineresting read.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

Brienne is awesome.  I think her chapters were my favourite in AFFC

[DannySpud]

I found Brienne's chapters infinitely more interesting than the Dorne ones.

[Lady Hodor]

I always liked Brienne, simply because she doesnt care if she's ugly, she can fight, and she knows it.
That is an admirable trait, and she is aware of what honour is, a rare thing in Westeros.

[Lady Kraken]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 12 April 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I understood the 'groan' feeling on my first read of Feast when coming to a Brienne chapter. I wanted to keep moving with other plots, and her's felt like they were a distraction. However, on re-read, when I wasn't constantly itching to know what came next, I enjoyed her chapters a lot more. Probably some of my favorites on re-read, actually.

Exactly this for me too.

On my first read, I half-skimmed her chapters to get to other ones, but I realized on my re-read that I missed some great things. Now, Brienne's chapters are probably my favorites in AFfC. The cast of characters she interacts with during her travels was amazing--poor Dick Crabb, Pod Payne, Randyll Tarly, Hyle Hunt, the dwarf septon, Septon Meribald, the rogue Brave Companions, the Elder Brother, Gendry, Thoros, Stoneheart, Mad Mouse.... We get to know some potentially important people through her eyes, and I just love her chapters, and I love her as a character too. She's incredibly brave and a genuinely good human being.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I like her. She's honest , honorable, she isn't afraid to be who she is not the way society tells her she should.

[Apple Martini]

I don't think that many people outright dislike Brienne as a character/person, but rather, they found her travelogue in Feast to be kind of plodding.

[salt]

I don't hate her.  I think a lot of people were bored by her AFFC story arc- they wanted more of their favorite characters, instead they got tons of Brienne travelougues.  While it had some great moments like the Septon Meribald speech, iI think the fact that all the readers knew it was doomed from the start (she was searching for Sansa while we knew she was actually at the Vale the whole time) made it boring for many readers.

[str8 outta Old Town]

I love Bri, I think Martin has been setting it up so her "Lawful Stupid Good" persona will finally meet a situation of genuine moral ambiguity. I really hope she is going to hand Jamie over to Cat to save Wesley Pod's life. I kind of hope he survives, but I would enjoy the little shit getting killed, just as he's discovering his touchy feely side. It woud be typical Martin to get idealistic Bri to kill the increasingly idealistic Jamie as part of her journey to cynicism.

[Winter's Knight]

str8 outta Old Town, on 12 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

I love Bri, I think Martin has been setting it up so her "Lawful Stupid Good" persona will finally meet a situation of genuine moral ambiguity. I really hope she is going to hand Jamie over to Cat to save Wesley Pod's life. I kind of hope he survives, but I would enjoy the little shit getting killed, just as he's discovering his touchy feely side. It woud be typical Martin to get idealistic Bri to kill the increasingly idealistic Jamie as part of her journey to cynicism.

Look what you did, getting my hopes up and everything.

[Arristan the Old]

What, no love for Brienne at the Whispers?  That was pre-Meribald and I don't see how anyone could call it boring.  Killing Bloody Mummers is *never* boring!

Sorry if this came up already; I sort of skimmed a little over some of the more recent posts...

Anyhow, I don't get the Brienne hate either.  I liked all her chapters so far.

[salt]

RIP Shagwell.  He died as he lived: droll.

[ManyFacedOne]

I really like Brienne and all her chapters. Killing Bloody Mummers -- especially when they're named Rorge and Biter -- is serious work and always entertaining.

[Harle The Handsome]

After Arya, Brienne is my favorite female PoV character (and third overall after Val).  I liked her character development arc.  She starts off as a rigid as pig iron paladin type, but while staying true to how she sees herself, starts to understand people who live in more of the gray area.  If you've ever felt chained in by expectations, Brienne resonates with you.

I get why some people think her chapters dragged on, but I felt that was more a function of being in AFFC.  I think we can all agree that book was the least well-written in the series so far.

I have a hard time taking anyone seriously that would say they "hated" Brienne.

[Hear Us Roar]

She is a snooze fest to read. The constant she is a girl who can fight zomg! But she is hideous, now even more so gets even more messed up facially

. I started to like her and her scenes with Podrick. Made it interesting, but other than that i would rather not have her as a POV

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 13 April 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[snax]

I like Brienne a lot and find her chapters great for fleshing out the realm beyond the confines of the castle walls. Her character also appeals to me because she suffers through a lot during the series yet she stays brave and true to her word.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

I was indifferent though bored by her chapters through most of AFFC until something actually happened and I thought she was dead. I liked her then as it gave me the, wow another main character killed off, feeling. (And I'm not talking about the hanging that was obvious she wasn't going to die. I mean the fight she had with biter or whoever where he completely destroyed her at the Inn). Then she came back from that, I still don't quite get how, and I hated her for that. I was really happy with her death and that ploy was used too much in the last two books. So I think her story is done and am still waiting for her death.

I think I'll be rewarded in the next book, Bran's dream in AGOT fortells Jaime, The Hound & UnGregor in the Vale trying to save Sansa with no mention of Brienne so I don't think she's making it out of Jaime's confrontation with UnCat.