Why is there such fan love for Brynden Blackfish?

[Queen Cersei I]

If only history were full of more people who refused to continue fighting against difficult odds and humbled themselves in order to act for the "greater good". Did you even take a minute to consider the implications of this argument?

I have indeed. And since Bryndyn is fighting an utterly doomed cause and placing numerous people in peril for no other reason than his own pride, I have some trouble admiring him.

I admire fighters, and those fighting lost causes rather than give up some important principle or greater good. However, the Blackfish seems to be fighting for his own pride and perception of himself, which strikes me as less heroic than mildly selfish.

[Fire Eater]

Mostly because he is portrayed in a positive manner.

On first glance, Bryndyn is a brave, defiant, proud man, a badass warrior and a loving uncle and father surrogate into the bargain, to whom his nieces and nepthews went with all their problems.

On second glance, he is a selfish, ruthless man; willing to watch his supposedly beloved nephew be brutally hanged for the sake of his own pride and stuborness. Worse, unlike Edmure (who is, with some unfairness, portrayed as less cool and "honorable" than the Blackfish), Bryndyn is willing to sacrifice numerous innocent smallfolk on the alter of his own perception of himself, idea of honor, and inability to humble himself in order to act for the greater good.

Edmure may be portrayed, for the most part, as a bit of an incompetent wuss inferior in honor (Jaime believes) to the Blackfish. I think Bryndyn's actions in AFFC are selfish and shitty, and, for all his faults and lack of majesty, would rather have Edmure as my overlord than Bryndyn.

Bryndyn is portrayed as a BAMF who proudly puts the Kingslayer in his place, and generally gets more fanfare than poor Edmure, though. I guess it's all in the presentation. Personally, I think Bryndyn and the newly "redeemed" kingslayer should get together for coffee. Jaime's little "You'll want your like..." speech appears to go along with Bryndyn's overall ideology well. Together, these two prove that its not whether you act well or wickedly, selfishly or unselfishly-- its all in how badass you appear while doing it.

His reasons are given in terms of regard for Edmure:

My nephew is marked for death no matter what I do.

He thinks even if he does surrender Riverrun they'll kill Edmure anyway. He has little reason to trust either the Freys or the Lannisters, given their treachery.

He is holding Riverrun, because his king commanded him to and was entrusted with the protection of his queen. That isn't selfish or what you would call "shitty."

Plus, saying surrendering to the Lannisters is an act for the greater good, wouldn't the rebels surrendering to Pinochet in Chile be the greater good?

[Proudwing]

Slightly off topic, but I have argued this several times: I don't think that the Blackfish was gay or asexual, rather that he suffered from unrequited love for his brother's wife, Minisa. My point can't be backed up by any textual evidence, but many gay people in the real medieval era, such as Richard I of England and Edward II of England married women even though they had little sexual feeling for them. Even gay characters in the book, such as Renly do this. Brynden's stubbornness not to marry is far more indicative of him not being able to have the woman he wanted, rather than because he is gay or doesn't have any desire. Sorry if this seems rambling and incoherent, it is rather late!

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Mostly because he is portrayed in a positive manner.

On first glance, Bryndyn is a brave, defiant, proud man, a badass warrior and a loving uncle and father surrogate into the bargain, to whom his nieces and nepthews went with all their problems.

On second glance, he is a selfish, ruthless man; willing to watch his supposedly beloved nephew be brutally hanged for the sake of his own pride and stuborness.

I believe they call that being a Lord

The sellsword grew more serious. “There’s a moneylender from Braavos, holding fancy papers and the like, requests to see the king about payment on some loan.”

“As if Joff could count past twenty. Send the man to Littlefinger, he’ll find a way to put him off. Next?”

“A lordling down from the Trident, says your father’s men burned his keep, raped his wife, and killed all his peasants.”

“I believe they call that war.” Tyrion smelled Gregor Clegane’s work, or that of Ser Amory Lorch or his father’s other pet hellhound, the Qohorik.

“What does he want of Joffrey?”

“New peasants,” Bronn said. “He walked all this way to sing how loyal he is and beg for recompense.”

“I’ll make time for him on the morrow.” Whether truly loyal or merely desperate, a compliant river lord might have his uses. “See that he’s given a comfortable chamber and a hot meal. Send him a new pair of boots as well, good ones, courtesy of King Joffrey.” A show of generosity never hurt.

Worse, unlike Edmure (who is, with some unfairness, portrayed

well what do you mean portrayed? This is why I'm always reluctant to break the 4th wall. The the characters are fictional. They are whatever the author says they are.

as less cool and "honorable" than the Blackfish), Bryndyn is willing to sacrifice numerous innocent smallfolk on the alter of his own perception of himself, idea of honor, and inability to humble himself in order to act for the greater good.

Him Ned Stark, Stannis and nearly every lord in Westeros

Edmure may be portrayed, for the most part, as a bit of an incompetent

again, what do you mean portrayed? if his 15 year old nephew and his sister hadn't come to rescue him the Lannisters would still have Edmure in a cage

wuss inferior in honor (Jaime believes) to the Blackfish. I think Bryndyn's actions in AFFC are selfish and shitty, and, for all his faults and lack of majesty, would rather have Edmure as my overlord than Bryndyn.

No you wouldn't. Neither if you're a lord nor a commoner. The only person Edmure is good for is Walder Frey. If Brynden Tully were lord of Riverrun Tywin Lannister probably would never have invade to loose war and woe upon the land. Bryden Certainly wouldn't have divided up his forces piecemeal, falling into Tywin's trap nor massed his men in a indefinsible position on lower ground beneath a Lannister fortress . Nor would he have, upon being rescued release his banner men to defend their own keeps, repeating and compounding his original mistake.

Those actions all got the Lords and smallfolk of the Riverlands, by the thousands. Though perhaps Brynden should have bent the knee at Riverrun, treating with the FREYS directly after the Red Wedding and trusting that they won't murder everyone anyway in the castle, is not as sure a bet as it normally would be. Jamie, though we know he's changed, not alleviate this problem. He was released with the promise of the return of one or both of Catelyn's daughters. And as Bynden points out Jamie is free, Catelyn is (un)dead and nary a daughter of Winterfell has been produced. So, when the Blackfish speaks of honor, he doesn't mean Ned Starks ephemeral notion. He confidence that the counter-party will honor the terms of the contract.

Further, Bryden, strategic genius that he is, has foraged every spec of food outside Riverrun. He is well supplied in a highly fortified position. His enemy cannot feed themselves. The way the enemy alleviate the food shortage is to storm Riverrun while sustaining heavy losses. No man wants to be the last man to die in a war. And this is true just as much for the Freys and Lannisters as it is for those inside the castle. The threat of a pyrrhic victory is a detterant to war, just ask the Dornish.

And its for that reason that one is better off with a Lord like Bryden or Tywin, who, though they seem to be callous, are actually better able to protect their people than lords like Edmure who invite attack by their very open compassion.

Bryndyn is portrayed as a BAMF who proudly puts the Kingslayer in his place, and generally gets more fanfare than poor Edmure, though. I guess it's all in the presentation. Personally, I think Bryndyn and the newly "redeemed" kingslayer should get together for coffee. Jaime's little "You'll want your like..." speech appears to go along with Bryndyn's overall ideology well. Together, these two prove that its not whether you act well or wickedly, selfishly or unselfishly-- its all in how badass you appear while doing it.

On top of all of that Bryden is the only reason Robb ever won any battles. Maybe OxCross can be attributed to Greywind, but either way Robb had nothing to do with it. Bryden and Catelyn are basically the only competent and trustworthy advisers Robb has. If only Hoster and named Bryden as his heir, there would never have been a war between Lannister and Tully.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

i think it might be because a gay-hardcore-badass-moral-wise-killer is kind of rare in literature.

are you sure he's gay? I mean he could be. but I don't know how everyone is so sure about that

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Slightly off topic, but I have argued this several times: I don't think that the Blackfish was gay or asexual, rather that he suffered from unrequited love for his brother's wife, Minisa. My point can't be backed up by any textual evidence, but many gay people in the real medieval era, such as Richard I of England and Edward II of England married women even though they had little sexual feeling for them. Even gay characters in the book, such as Renly do this. Brynden's stubbornness not to marry is far more indicative of him not being able to have the woman he wanted, rather than because he is gay or doesn't have any desire. Sorry if this seems rambling and incoherent, it is rather late!

Why do you think its her?

[James Arryn]

It also helps that we only get a limited view of him - Jaime comments on him being one of his idols, Catelyn views him as a wise and intelligent adviser and man, Robb relies on him. We never really get up close and personal with him to see his warts - why he never married, why that created so much distance between him and Hoster, why he/Robb didn't adequately inform Edmure of their strategy, etc.

I like him as a character from what we know, though. And it might be childish, but I liked his trolling of Jaime in AFFC.

Yeah, it's a bit like Rhaegar...not so much things we have directly been shown, but the semi-legendary status he has with characters whose opinions seem weighty on the subject.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

The Blackfish is also named after Brynden Rivers (or so Bloodraven says) and that increases his kewlness factor by at least 10%.

[Burning down the House]

BLACKFISH ROCKS!!

[Lady of Long Lake]

Slightly off topic, but I have argued this several times: I don't think that the Blackfish was gay or asexual, rather that he suffered from unrequited love for his brother's wife, Minisa. My point can't be backed up by any textual evidence, but many gay people in the real medieval era, such as Richard I of England and Edward II of England married women even though they had little sexual feeling for them. Even gay characters in the book, such as Renly do this. Brynden's stubbornness not to marry is far more indicative of him not being able to have the woman he wanted, rather than because he is gay or doesn't have any desire. Sorry if this seems rambling and incoherent, it is rather late!

I felt too that Blackfish wasn't gay. I imagined that he'd had his heart set on ONE woman and when he couldn't have her, no one else would do.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I felt too that Blackfish wasn't gay. I imagined that he'd had his heart set on ONE woman and when he couldn't have her, no one else would do.

Only Cat

[Thunderfist]

Only Cat

:cool4:

[Howling Mad]

i think it might be because a gay-hardcore-badass-moral-wise-killer is kind of rare in literature.

Just because he's a badass and unmarried doesn't make him gay...does it?

[kg1982]

Actually the Tower of the Hand had a good essay a few months back about why Blackfish is a character that readers shouldn't root for. And his actions during the siege of Riverrun were the main reason why. It was an utterly hopeless fight and Blackfish was willing to kill lots more innocent people so he could go out in a great blaze of glory. He probably would have even ended up killing Jeyne Westerling, who he was supposedly protecting. Once the Red Wedding happened, the most prudent thing to do was for the Riverlands to surrender and give up Jeyne (who had a royal pardon and wouldn't be harmed). They didn't have an army to protect them anymore.

I have much more respect for Manderlay than I do for Blackfish. One of Manderlay's reasons for playing a stealthy long game is to protect the citizens of White Harbor. This strikes me as much more noble than Blackfish's desire to continue to let the Riverlands burn to give Blackfish the death he thinks he deserves.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I think a big part of the Blackfish's appeal to a certain portion of the fanbase is the fact that he is the last man standing out of Robb's entire army.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

His getaway was kewl, too. Just when the Lannisters (and we) thought they had everything, one of their smartest enemies swims away . . .

I do hope the Blackfish will return to wreak havoc on the Freys & Friends.

[Queen Cersei I]

Only Cat

Har.

More seriously, I've heard it suggested that the Blackfish was secretly in love with Minisa Whent-- Cat's mom and Hoster's wife. The person suggesting this scenario hypothesized that this was the reasons for the tension between Hoster and the Blackfish, and what caused the blow up between the two that led to Bryndyn's leaving.

Personally, I don't really buy into this-- it doesn't really go along with the other evidence we've seen, and, frankly, seems a bit "days of our lives" for GRRM. (Two brothers-- torn apart by their love for the same woman! Hell... screw days of our lives, this sounds like Maury.)

At any rate, I've always thought there were some subtle but significant implications that the Blackfish was gay. Including

1. Bryndyn refusing to get married-- could very well mean nothing, or simply that he's stubborn and wants to remain single. But...

2. Also, Hoster Tully asks Cat when she comes back, regarding the Blackfish, "Has he gotten married? To some woman?" It appears here as though Hoster is really hung up on the Blackfish ending up with a woman. "Some woman," suggests that Hoster Tully is eager for his brother to end up with some woman, any woman.

3. When Hoster asks about Bryndyn getting married, Cat says no, he has not married, then confidently asserts, "not will he ever." How does she know this? This sounds pretty definitive, and she says it without any hesitation whatsoever.

Of course, this could all simply be incidental, and Bryndyn could be a straight guy who is just stubborn and doesn't want to get married or obey his bossy older brother. None of these hints are definitive proof; however, taken together, along with Bryndyn's unusual choice to disobey the head of his house and stay single, could mean he is gay. :dunno:

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Actually the Tower of the Hand had a good essay a few months back about why Blackfish is a character that readers shouldn't root for. And his actions during the siege of Riverrun were the main reason why. It was an utterly hopeless fight and Blackfish was willing to kill lots more innocent people so he could go out in a great blaze of glory. He probably would have even ended up killing Jeyne Westerling, who he was supposedly protecting. Once the Red Wedding happened, the most prudent thing to do was for the Riverlands to surrender and give up Jeyne (who had a royal pardon and wouldn't be harmed). They didn't have an army to protect them anymore.

I have much more respect for Manderlay than I do for Blackfish. One of Manderlay's reasons for playing a stealthy long game is to protect the citizens of White Harbor. This strikes me as much more noble than Blackfish's desire to continue to let the Riverlands burn to give Blackfish the death he thinks he deserves.

yeah queen Cersei basically paraphrased it.

I'm just not quite so sure its hopeless, the army outside couldn't feed itself. The lighting lord is still striking here and there as far everyone knows. And the Lannister army was melting away much as Robbs was while he sat at Riverrun. I don't think its unreasonable for Bryden to hold out looking for an opportunity to break out, rather than surrendering to the FREYs who just demonstrated a disregard for a truce banner. Lastly there's a theory Jeyne Westerling escaped with the Blackfish smuggling away a wolf pup and Elenya is the Westerling that Jamie saw.

[Noimporta]

Bryndyn refusing to get married-- could very well mean nothing, or simply that he's stubborn and wants to remain single. But...

Well, one of the few confirmed gay characters was, in fact, married to a woman, there's no telling what Brynden could be into...

[nixiepoo]

There are heterosexual men who don't want to be married. He probably reacted to all the unhappy marriages in Westeros.