50 replies to this topic

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Clearly, trying to manipulate the Faith after letting them rearm was stupid, but was letting them rearm in and of itself stupid?

Cersei got about $1,000,000 golden dragons in debt forgiven for this, and got most of the sparrows out of the city, who had been annoying the city folk. Not to mention that the Faith Militant are likely to fight Stannis at some point.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 13 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Clearly, trying to manipulate the Faith after letting them rearm was stupid, but was letting them rearm in and of itself stupid?

Cersei got about $1,000,000 golden dragons in debt forgiven for this, and got most of the sparrows out of the city, who had been annoying the city folk. Not to mention that the Faith Militant are likely to fight Stannis at some point.

they arrested her, she could not get free because of the wepons she gave them. So, yes, bad idea

[Ser Hippie]

The sparrows are still in the city (that's why she remains a prisoner for so long) and she's given a fanatic (the High Septon) an army and the legal right to use it.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 13 April 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

They're pretty much the only thing the Lannisters have going for them atm, right?

[Ser Lepus]

It´s not just the army, she has given them back the right to arrest, judge and punish people, and that´s what has bitten her in the ass. Even the medieval european kings did their best to take that right from the church...even the catholic kings and princes during the european wars of religion didn´t want the church to have that much power.

I  think the Faith would have eventually claimed the right to have an army and to judge and punish even without royal sanction (the sparrows were already carrying axes before the rearming of the Faith, and the High Sparrow was already whipping the Most Devout and probably other people too), but Cersei made everything easier for him. She just doesn´t understand how power really works.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 13 April 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Gurkhal]

The Lannisters still have the alliance with the Tyrells even if the Lannisters are sliding to be the junior part of that duo and the Lannisters have still got an army. Its not as big as it could be but there are still several thousand sworn swords standing for Casterly Rock.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 13 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Clearly, trying to manipulate the Faith after letting them rearm was stupid, but was letting them rearm in and of itself stupid?

Yes.  Rearming the faith and then encouraging to preside over the trial of a queen under charges of treasonous incest was especially stupid in Cersei's case, but rearming the Faith would have been a stupid idea for any claimant to the Iron Throne.  It creates competion in the ultimate-armed-authority-over-all-Seven-Kingdoms game: in other words, a new potential contender for Sovereignty over Westeros.  With enough Swords and Stars, the High Sparrow would be able to challenge Tommen's (or any other putative King's or Queen's) will in the governance of the realm.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Yes. Obviously.

It's probably, in the long run, the mistake of Cersei's reign. Religious absolutism + Power over life and death = Bad combination.

[jarl the climber]

In the short term it allow the Faiths people to arm themselves openly, which they had started to do anyways but it gives them the right to do it openly. We have to differentiate between the knights of the Warrior Sons and the Sparrows. We have to wonder if they,the BwB are in league with some of the Sparrows to an extent despite the Faiths codemnation of the Red God. The BwB seemed to be popular in Stony Sept and they were welcome at the Smallwood castle. They were operating out of the Inn at the crossroads, the Heddle girl said that some of the children there were brought by the Sparrows, none of the men Brienne saw hanging were Sparrows. It remains to be seen how much control the High Sparrow will have over them. He was a wandering Septon much like Meribald so in a way he is one of them and that brings into question what his true sympathies really are. I think he might be disturbed by the rise of the Red God but be in sympathy with what the Brotherhood is doing and allowing the Sparrows to colaborate with them. So there is a big disconnect between what were hearing  and what we see happening on the ground.

Edited by jarl the climber, 13 April 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Some of you guys don't seem to get my point. Cersei letting the Faith rearm and Cersei trying to use the Faith to take down Margaery were two seperate acts. What I'm asking is that if Cersei hadn't done the second, would the first have been so bad?

[chris999]

It depends on if you are going to use them for your plot or not.

Cercei is such a snake, that I actually think that she may turn on her acting skills, and pretend to become pious, in an effort to get support from the militia.

Wouldnt that be funny?

[DannySpud]

Right now it's a bad idea as the last strong Lannister (crazy as f**k but still reasonably knowledgeable about tactics and politics) is severely weakened and even imprisoned. It might turn out okay if they fight Stannis (which they will as he follows R'hllor rather than the Seven), but that doesn't seem to be happening any time soon.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 13 April 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Some of you guys don't seem to get my point. Cersei letting the Faith rearm and Cersei trying to use the Faith to take down Margaery were two seperate acts. What I'm asking is that if Cersei hadn't done the second, would the first have been so bad?

Yes because a religious army is never a good idea.  Sorry but history has proved that...how many have died because the other army's cause was divinely inspired/justified? Once an army feels it has the justification of the gods (or in real life God) it removes any need to see those opposing the army as human.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 13 April 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Some of you guys don't seem to get my point. Cersei letting the Faith rearm and Cersei trying to use the Faith to take down Margaery were two seperate acts. What I'm asking is that if Cersei hadn't done the second, would the first have been so bad?

Yes. As I said, in the LONG run, it will be Cersei's worst mistake as ruler. Religious absolutism + Power over life and death = Bad combination. Even if it hadn't bit Cersei in the ass almost immediately, even if it wouldn't have turned into a disaster in her lifetime (which is already unlikely), it would've screwed over Westeros for years to come.

[jarl the climber]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 13 April 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Some of you guys don't seem to get my point. Cersei letting the Faith rearm and Cersei trying to use the Faith to take down Margaery were two seperate acts. What I'm asking is that if Cersei hadn't done the second, would the first have been so bad?

The Faith was all ready starting to arm before she made it legal, my point is why they were arming to begin with, which is to protect themselves from broken men, bandits and soldiers. They didn't arm to protect themselves from Lord Beric, it remains to be seen how much power they have, how much control the High Septon will have over them and what their aims are which aren't clear yet. Obviously they didn't start arming themselves because of the tensions betweern Cersei and Marge. The Sparrow phenomenon seems to be contained to the Riverlands so far so we have to keep in mind that this a movement started by people indiginant to this region for ther most part and in the short term the actions of its members will reflect that. The fact that house Lannister is responsible for much of the damage in the Riverlands does not bode well for Cersei.

[Thunderfist]

Crazy religious zealots, fanatics and nutcases + Weapons, armor and nearly unlimited power = Disaster (in every world, real or imagined)

[The Last Direwolf]

If Cersei was the innocent, sweet queen she portrayed herself as, and if the Faith Militant didn't have such a notorious history, then it would have been a brilliant idea, yes. But Cersei wasn't and the Faith Militant does, so it was stupid.

[Independent George]

The Last Direwolf, on 13 April 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

If Cersei was the innocent, sweet queen she portrayed herself as, and if the Faith Militant didn't have such a notorious history, then it would have been a brilliant idea, yes. But Cersei wasn't and the Faith Militant does, so it was stupid.

The problem with the Faith Militant has nothing to do with Cersei personally. It's that she legitimized an army, thousands strong, which does not take orders from her. It doesn't matter if she's an innocent or not - she has no control over a huge paramilitary force inside her own borders. Forget the religious dimension for a moment - the modern equivalent is the Cartels fighting the Paramilitaries in Colombia. It's the reason the Night's Watch swears neutrality - no government can survive an independent army operating within its own borders. That's much more costly than the million or so of debt that was forgiven.

Thoros of Myr gained converts in the Riverlands not by evangelizing, but simply through example. If this Red Priest (and Lord Beric) are willing to risk so much for the smallfolk, then the smallfolk will be inclined to follow them. What I wonder about is what happens when the Faith Militant head back into the Riverlands, and likely starting an inquisition against the "infidels".

Edited by Independent George, 13 April 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Religions simply cannot be allowed to interfere with people's lives in anything but a purely voluntary fashion.  Cersei has given the Septons incredible power and they only answer to their god, who it just so happens doesn't actually make it remotely clear what it wants to anyone and thus the Septons have all the ability in the world to use their power however they like.

Once accept the justification of "Well god said so!!", no one can argue against you.  Coup le that with power, and you have a truly terrifying thing.

[The Last Direwolf]

Independent George, on 13 April 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

The problem with the Faith Militant has nothing to do with Cersei personally. It's that she legitimized an army, thousands strong, which does not take orders from her. It doesn't matter if she's an innocent or not - she has no control over a huge paramilitary force inside her own borders. Forget the religious dimension for a moment - the modern equivalent is the Cartels fighting the Paramilitaries in Colombia. It's the reason the Night's Watch swears neutrality - no government can survive an independent army operating within its own borders. That's much more costly than the million or so of debt that was forgiven.

Thoros of Myr gained converts in the Riverlands not by evangelizing, but simply through example. If this Red Priest (and Lord Beric) are willing to risk so much for the smallfolk, then the smallfolk will be inclined to follow them. What I wonder about is what happens when the Faith Militant head back into the Riverlands, and likely starting an inquisition against the "infidels".

But surely having done so many things that the Faith would proclaim as sinful, she should have realised that if she allowed them free reign, they would find out and turn on her. That is what I was saying when I mentioned about her being the 'sweet and innocent queen'.