87 replies to this topic

[The Frosted King]

The fly in the pudding.

What did the lords in his counsel say when he outlined the plan to attack the north?
When he chose acorns over gemstones?

[Lothar Imbel]

Balon's plan was really quite stupid.  He still could've attacked the Westerlands and not allied with the Starks, which would've made him A ) much richer, and B )  less screwed in the long run.

Edited by Lothar Imbel, 14 April 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Sevumar]

I don't know that the culture in the Iron Isles really allows for much dissent once the lord or king has made up his mind. I'm also willing to bet that they understood that they couldn't hold well-defended or inland territory very well and that their initial conquests would be restricted to areas that they could easily reach and reinforce by sea.

[Lord Ben]

I don't know if they have much interest in conquering so much as taking a sack full of gold and a ship full of thralls and salt wives back to their islands.  In that respect I would think attacking Lannisport offered them far better reward than the North.

It seemed a striking bit of bad strategy as well.   A good way to say "F YOU!" to the Starks but a poor way to pay the iron price.

Edited by Lord Ben, 14 April 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Sevumar]

Lord Ben, on 14 April 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I don't know if they have much interest in conquering so much as taking a sack full of gold and a ship full of thralls and salt wives back to their islands.  In that respect I would think attacking Lannisport offered them far better reward than the North.

It seemed a striking bit of bad strategy as well.   A good way to say "F YOU!" to the Starks but a poor way to pay the iron price.

I might agree that conquest probably wouldn't be the smartest option if the Iron Islands were better able to support their population, but they really seem like nobody should be living there. Plus, there's the history of the Ironmen as conquerors who once held vast amounts of territory throughout the Riverlands and the North. Fighting to regain a lost legacy is a powerful motivator (just ask Dany or Viserys) and a smart thing for Balon to appeal to in his followers.

Sure, it's nice to return to the islands with ships full of plundered goods and gold, but in the long run, that's not going to do much to strengthen the position of the Ironmen. They need better holdings with fertile land and greater resources, otherwise they're just going to be back in the position of having nothing. Raiding is a great strategy for filling a short-term need, but it's not a good way to build a society, wealth, or a power base.

Edited by Sevumar, 14 April 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[Lothar Imbel]

Yeah, they still could've gone to war with both the Lannisters and the Stark/Tully alliance, as neither really had the naval strength to oppose them ( what with White Harbour being on the other side of Westeros, and even the Mallisters lacked a significant navy, IIRC), what with the King's Fleet being split between Stannis and Joffrey, and the Redwyne's cautiously declaring for Renly.  There is the Lannister Fleet, but as Victarion was able to defeat them once before, it's safe to assume that they can do it again.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

It was a bit of a stupid plan, seemingly so for plot reasons and no others. Had Balon swallowed a bit of pride he'd have been a king (until the FM got there) and gotten loads of gold and glory sacking Lannisport.

[Lord Damian]

Balon Greyjoy sunk his chance at building a Kingdom and took down Robb's chance for him along down with him. Damn him for it too!!!!!
Balon Greyjoy was somewhat insane. That is part of the reason, his brother Euron got rid of him. Balon was off his rocker and cost the iron born many resources without bringing in any. Notice, after his death, the Iron fleet is looting the Reach and other areas with greater yield and easy picking. The Iron men have abandoned any attempt to hold one piece of the North. Part of this is probably also wanting to get rid of Asha by hoping she is killed off since she has the rightful blood claim. They do not even know about Theon either.

[Lothar Imbel]

Actually, as the Ironborn attack basically solidified the defeat of the North, who's to say that if the Ironborn had attacked Lannisport, it would've meant the same for the Lannisters?  Tywin wouldn't stand for Casterly Rock or Lannisport to be sacked, and so he would've marched to relieve them, where he may have been defeated by Robb/Balon and possibly destroyed.  This would essentially mean that Stannis' attack on KL would've been a success (he may have even got the Tyrells on his side, though I can't imagine Loras would've liked it, so it perhaps puts that into doubt).

[Stark@heart]

Balon reminds me of Doran.

[Sevumar]

Lord Damian, on 14 April 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Balon Greyjoy was somewhat insane. That is part of the reason, his brother Euron got rid of him. Balon was off his rocker and cost the iron born many resources without bringing in any. Notice, after his death, the Iron fleet is looting the Reach and other areas with greater yield and easy picking. The Iron men have abandoned any attempt to hold one piece of the North. Part of this is probably also wanting to get rid of Asha by hoping she is killed off since she has the rightful blood claim. They do not even know about Theon either.

In the long-term sense, it might have been better for Balon to ally with Robb Stark and try to take other lands, but Balon's pride and history got in the way of that. It's important to remember that the Ironmen have never really laid claim to territory in the Westerlands; their historical holdings were primarily in the North and the Riverlands.

I think that if Euron had not succeeded in removing Balon and whetting the Ironmen's taste for plunder and conquest, they might have done just fine. Balon was aware of which points he needed to hold in order to make his conquest of Northern lands last. Euron has blinded the Iron Islanders with promises of easy money and dominion over all of Westeros. His plan is much less sound and much more far-fetched than Balon's ever was.

[Sevumar]

Stark@heart, on 14 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Balon reminds me of Doran.

Both have had plans that failed, but that describes all of the leaders in Westeros at one time or another. Other than that, what do they have in common?

[Ramsay Bolsnow]

The funniest thing is that Balon did actually realize how stupid he was, and tried to sue for peace with the Lannisters after the Tyrells jumped on the lion's bandwagon and made it ascendant.

Only Tywin had none of it. Rightly so; Cersei was right when she said the Greyjoys should have been scoured from Westeros a long time ago.

[The Frosted King]

Sevumar, on 14 April 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

In the long-term sense, it might have been better for Balon to ally with Robb Stark and try to take other lands, but Balon's pride and history got in the way of that. It's important to remember that the Ironmen have never really laid claim to territory in the Westerlands; their historical holdings were primarily in the North and the Riverlands.

I think that if Euron had not succeeded in removing Balon and whetting the Ironmen's taste for plunder and conquest, they might have done just fine. Balon was aware of which points he needed to hold in order to make his conquest of Northern lands last. Euron has blinded the Iron Islanders with promises of easy money and dominion over all of Westeros. His plan is much less sound and much more far-fetched than Balon's ever was.

Hardly a conquest when you've taken three castles out of perhaps 30.
It was an annoyance, that Rodrik was resolving when the Boltons made their play and started a fire at Robbs back.
The ironmen didn't have the strength to hold the north.
When you've got the smallest army, why try to conquer the largest territory?

[The Last Direwolf]

Attacking the North was important to Balon because of the large part the Starks played in putting down his last rebellion I believe - it was just good old revenge for good old Balon!

[The Frosted King]

Then he should've done it as Lord Balon, and likely gotten a fat purse from the Iron Throne in thanks.
But when he took a crown himself, and turned on his only viable ally, he was being obtuse, and stupid.

[The Last Direwolf]

Stark@heart, on 14 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Balon reminds me of Doran.

Balon was stupid. Doran is clever and patient. They're very different in my view.

[Kantor]

Stark@heart, on 14 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Balon reminds me of Doran.

They're polar opposites. Balon is excessively hasty, has delusions of grandeur and is honestly just rather stupid. Doran is extremely intelligent, patient almost to a fault, cautious and determined not to start anything resembling a war.

[Sevumar]

Scootydowop, on 14 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hardly a conquest when you've taken three castles out of perhaps 30.
It was an annoyance, that Rodrik was resolving when the Boltons made their play and started a fire at Robbs back.
The ironmen didn't have the strength to hold the north.
When you've got the smallest army, why try to conquer the largest territory?

You don't have to take and hold the whole of the North in order to have conquests. Balon didn't want Theon to take Winterfell, and in doing so, Theon defied both his father's orders and the advice of Asha, who patiently explained their father's plan to him again at Winterfell. Balon never intended to take the whole of the North, just as much as he could realistically keep and reinforce until the Starks were forced to accept his terms.

[Winterfell is Burning]

The Last Direwolf, on 14 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Attacking the North was important to Balon because of the large part the Starks played in putting down his last rebellion I believe - it was just good old revenge for good old Balon!

Revenge over who? The man who played a part in it was dead. However, two of the men that also played a large part in it- Stannis and Tywin- were alive and he didn't wasted a second thought on them. The actual king was Robert, and he had two brothers and a "son" in the war, but he didn't cared for it too.

Frankly, the Greyjoy part of ACOK seemingly only existed because GRRM wanted Robb to lose and the Lannisters to win, going against traditional fantasy tropes, even though at the end of AGOT that was highly illogical, since all the sides in the war hated them.