68 replies to this topic

[Greatjon_umber]

I see alot of people that seem to have a negative opinion of Brandon, and I don't really understand why. The most common complaint about him, is his recklessness in marching to King's Landing, and demanding for Rhaegar to "Come out and die" or whatever his exact words were. But that's his family, as far as he knows his beloved sister was just kidnapped at swordpoint by the heir to the Iron Throne, a man practically untouchable. I don't know about the majority of you, but if I were a Stark, an ancient family that has been in power for 8000 years, and this upstart family, king or not, decides it's okay to steal away your own blood without your consent, I'd have done the same as Brandon. King, lord, fishermen, silent sister, doesn't matter who you are.

[DornishKnight]

We never got to see him, but he definitely had balls.

[EgoistMusketeer]

"Starks - quick tempers, slow minds"

What Brandon did was rash but you certainly can't blame the man for loving his family.

I think some people don't like him because they view Rhaegar as some sort of tragic hero

[Greatjon_umber]

Another important point I forgot to add was, I'm sure the entire realm had seen Aerys' descent into madness. They knew he wasn't sane, and I don't see any indication that he had been a fair ruler in his later years. So the son of an insane King just stole away your sister, who knows what horrible deeds are being done to her, torture, mutiliation, really whatever the imagination can conjure. Brandon worried for her safety, I'm sure, being the captives of an insane family that was untouchable.

[James Arryn]

EgoistMusketeer, on 15 April 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

I think some people don't like him because they view Rhaegar as some sort of tragic hero

I think you can think of them both as tragic heroes.

[DannySpud]

I like Brandon, from his point of view Rhaegar publicly embarrassed his sister by choosing her over his wife at the tourney, then kidnapped her. He then marched into the dragon's den so to speak to get her back, knowing full well that the King was insane. He sounds like a more badass Ned, and clearly had the Stark bane of dangerously high honour.

[Hear Us Roar]

His one mistake was not knowing the king was insane. He thought his rank would be a shield as it usually is. If the king was sane he would have just arrested him.


Being in the north they are more isolated in the goings on of kings landing.

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 15 April 2012 - 02:41 AM.

[Greatjon_umber]

Hear Us Roar, on 15 April 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

His one mistake was not knowing the king was insane. He thought his rank would be a shield as it usually is. If the king was sane he would have just arrested him

I don't think that's true. I think he assumed Rhaegar would answer his challenge, because if he were Rhaegar, he'd answer it (proof is the Baelish duel). Also I assume he feared for the safety and wellbeing of his sister, and acted hastily because of it.

[James Arryn]

I think Rhaegar DOES answer the challenge if he's there.

[Castel]

Greatjon_umber, on 15 April 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

I see alot of people that seem to have a negative opinion of Brandon, and I don't really understand why. The most common complaint about him, is his recklessness in marching to King's Landing, and demanding for Rhaegar to "Come out and die" or whatever his exact words were. But that's his family, as far as he knows his beloved sister was just kidnapped at swordpoint by the heir to the Iron Throne, a man practically untouchable. I don't know about the majority of you, but if I were a Stark, an ancient family that has been in power for 8000 years, and this upstart family, king or not, decides it's okay to steal away your own blood without your consent, I'd have done the same as Brandon. King, lord, fishermen, silent sister, doesn't matter who you are.

Greatjon_umber, on 15 April 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Another important point I forgot to add was, I'm sure the entire realm had seen Aerys' descent into madness. They knew he wasn't sane, and I don't see any indication that he had been a fair ruler in his later years. So the son of an insane King just stole away your sister, who knows what horrible deeds are being done to her, torture, mutiliation, really whatever the imagination can conjure. Brandon worried for her safety, I'm sure, being the captives of an insane family that was untouchable.

So the answer is to rush into the arms of said untouchable family, that has an insane king notorious for his harsh treatment of people and scream treason? How exactly would this help Lyanna? He's an idiot.

[Greatjon_umber]

Castel, on 15 April 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

So the answer is to rush into the arms of said untouchable family, that has an insane king notorious for his harsh treatment of people and scream treason? How exactly would this help Lyanna? He's an idiot.

The answer is to defend his family, and ensure the safety of his sister. And if he  must rush into the Red keep and demand every single head in the castle, that's what he should do. One on one combat with Rhaegar would have saved alot of lives, instead he was killed and a war engulfed Westeros.

[theguyfromtheVale]

While I certainly see Brandon as a tragic figure, what bothers me about him is what he did to Ashara Dayne and Littlefinger. Even if their sex was consensual, he still wasalready betrothed to Catelyn, and humiliating Baelish was wrong, no matter what a little piece of shit he is now.

[Greatjon_umber]

theguyfromtheVale, on 15 April 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

While I certainly see Brandon as a tragic figure, what bothers me about him is what he did to Ashara Dayne and Littlefinger. Even if their sex was consensual, he still wasalready betrothed to Catelyn, and humiliating Baelish was wrong, no matter what a little piece of shit he is now.

Baelish challenged him, not the other way around. Do you think it's okay to challenge someone to a duel, and not expect to be killed if you're the loser? Didn't Ned give some quote about "If you're going to draw a sword, you better be prepared to use it."

[theguyfromtheVale]

Eh... Brandon could have declined. Baelish wasn't worth his attention.

[Castel]

Greatjon_umber, on 15 April 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

The answer is to defend his family, and ensure the safety of his sister. And if he  must rush into the Red keep and demand every single head in the castle, that's what he should do. One on one combat with Rhaegar would have saved alot of lives, instead he was killed and a war engulfed Westeros.

So.... you think the way to sort out the problem is to go to the stronghold of your enemy, who's father is notoriously insane, and start calling for the death of his son, not justice or a trial, but for the death of his son?

[Lummel]

Greatjon_umber, on 15 April 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

I see alot of people that seem to have a negative opinion of Brandon, and I don't really understand why.

I think our picture of Brandon is changing.  At first it was just that he was hot empered.  He had the wolf blood.  Now after ADWD what with Lady Dustin and Ashara he comes across as your typical westerosi nobleman, arrogant and entitled, rather than just a more quick tempered version of The Ned.

[A Free Shadow]

James Arryn, on 15 April 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

I think Rhaegar DOES answer the challenge if he's there.

But he wasn't there, was he? And it is also telling.

I'm not sure people dislike Brandon solely for the challenge he made. It is a combination of him using women in his life and then that entrance into KL that proved a big mistake. It shows him as reckless and proud. There is some hypocricy there too. He threated a few women badly (they concented, I imagine, but still faced ruin). On the other hand, some people, I think, simply like to show their smarts by making big "hate" proclamations, because they know how it all ended. They would probably praise him, if he was succesful in recovering Lyanna. And I do think that was not impossible, but very unlikely, I agree.

[Buried Treasure]

We don't know if anything happened between him and Ashara - it's harsh to judge him for using Ashara when it is only speculation that he was the father of the child that she may have had (we don't know what Barristan knew or thought he knew and we cant even be certain at this point he is correct about a stillbirth).

And he wasn't bethrothed elsewhere when he took Lady Dustin's maidenhood. It certainly wasn't the correct thing to sleep with an unmarried highborn maiden but it was after all consensual, and although there were no promises between them it does seem like he would have married her if given the choice. The affair seems to have ended after he told her that his father had bethrothed him elsewhere (although it was a jerk move to tell her after they had just had sex). Letting the whole north know he had slept with her and ruining her reputation would have beent truly dickish, but evidently that didn't happen.

Edited by Buried Treasure, 15 April 2012 - 04:16 AM.

[Nausicaä]

I like Brandon, the Stark ~whose mirth was as wild as his rages~, ~who had blood in his veins instead of cold water~, lol. The first few books made him sound like an appealing character, so I'm not going to write him off just because of some speculation brought on by ADWD. Yes, he slept with Lady Dustin, but that was before he was to marry Cat and we don't know if he also slept with Ashara or if he acted dishonorably towards her.

theguyfromtheVale, on 15 April 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

Eh... Brandon could have declined. Baelish wasn't worth his attention.

...It's quite likely that LF was smearing the honor of his betrothed, since he believed that she lost her virginity to him. Even if he didn't run his mouth about that part at that point in time (doubt it), him asking for a duel implied that he might be more deserving of Catelyn, because she "prefers" him, which kind of sends a message about her character. I don't think that if Catelyn's honor had not been explicitly involved, Brandon would have been as angry with Petyr as he was according to Ned (he spoke of him "often, and with some heat").

Also, I don't agree that he humiliated him. Yes, maybe it would have been better not to accept — though that's arguable, and wouldn't just saying "you are not worth my attention" also be humiliating? — but during the duel, he treated him like a man should treat a foolish boy in that situation. It would say worse things about his character if he had treated him as an equal, despite them being not even remotely on the same level, and took his life. It less humiliating to be treated as an equal, but humiliation means little when you are dead.

Quote

When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. “He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die.” And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

Edited by Wentwarth, 15 April 2012 - 04:38 AM.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Baelish seemed to find it humiliating. He was willing to die in a fight for Cat, and instead both she and Brandon looked down on him. I find it hard to hate Brandon for that as there wasn't much he could do.

But I think Brandon is your typical hotheaded douche to be honest. He's also very clearly an idiot.