311 replies to this topic

[Fragile Bird]

Lord Littlefinger, on 20 April 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

i am loose. no i had already made it. i posted it in its own thread and everything.

Yes, ok, but we want you in the rhymes thread.  

Cause you're a pirate.

[DragonSpawn]

Lord Littlefinger, on 20 April 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Ummm... I find it very frustating when I take time to answer your question and/or respond to your statement and you reply...

Sorry i'm just generally getting frustrated with the TV show at the moment and losing interest quickly in LF. They seem to be supporting that LF is behind everything - which is what i was suggesting initially... however, the TV show is so far off the mark at the moment that and i'm inclined to think i must be wrong

[plurabel]

this was one of the best threads I've read here. I've just spent the best part of my afternoon at it. so I'm just going to throw a LF quote out there:

Petyr Baelish smiled. “I am desperately sentimental, sweet lady. Best not tell anyone. I have spent years convincing the court that I am wicked and cruel, and I should hate to see all that hard work go for naught.”

edited for better formatting

Edited by plurabel, 13 August 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I really hope Sansa doesn't kill LF too soon - he's just such an entertaining bastard. (Also, I think that it would be only fitting if Sansa got to use him for her own agenda for a little while first).

If LF indeed ever seriously considered the Harry-the-Heir-strategy, you can bet that he has made sure that Harry is utterly and irrevocably in his pocket already. LF must have some dirt on Harry, otherwise he would never take the risk to install him as Lord of the Vale - a new Lord dieing  too soon after Sweet Robin would raise suspicions indeed and LF usually operates with more plausible deniability. Scenarios in which Harry turns out be a decent guy, turns against LF and helps Sansa win back Winterfell are highly unlikely - LF would have made sure of that.

But even if Harry is utterly LF's creature, such a plan can not be implemented over night. If LF wants to play it safe - and he usually does - he'll wait with the Sansa reveal till the Lannisters are too broke to retaliate. And ideally he'd wait with the Sweet Robin disposal till Sansa has born a male heir for Harry. And then, there are still too many variables in the plan: What if Sansa has only daughters for a while? What if she's infertile? What if she dies in childbirth?

So, no, Harry is probably not plan A.

If LF really relied on it, he'd try a bit harder to keep Sweet Robin alive for a little longer, I'd say. I don't necessarily believe he's actively trying to poison the child already - he might indeed just want him to be as little of a hassle as possible - but at any rate he's not particularly careful either. Makes me think that maybe the Vale does not play a crucial role in his larger agenda after all. If he can keep it - great - if not, well, it served its purpose (a safe retreat while the rest of Westeros was at each others throat) and made for a good distraction. (Neither Cersei nor Jaime worry about LF believing him too busy establishing himself in the Vale). But the next phase of the plan will be probably launched somewhere else.

BTW, I don't think that LF has any serious designs on Winterfell either. I bet, he's not planning to lead any armies into any battles any time soon, and with Stannis and the Boltons in the North, he surely would have to.  I don't know where people get the idea that Stannis would so easily accept Sansa -

Spoiler

we can actually be pretty sure that he wouldn't, since he'll soon have his own heir of Winterfell in Rickon

- he'd at the very least make it conditional on Sansa declaring for him. Would LF really want her to do that? Would he risk getting in a fight with Stannis otherwise? That would hardly be playing to his strenghts (and LF is good at playing to his strenghts). Right now, LF has little use for the knights of the Vale.

I'd say he's saving Sansa for an even more profitable marriage pact - someone who'll have a direct shot at the Iron Throne. Willas Tyrell, Trystane Martell, Euron Greyjoy? Aegon, once he appears? LF's gonna roll with it.

And meanwhile....

he might actually get Riverrun. Would be most satisfying on a personal level too, I guess.

Think about it: He's got a seat in the Riverlands already, in theory only though. So far he has not shown any interest in establishing himself there, wisely, because that area is mess, still teeming with Lannister and Frey forces, who are in turn getting butchered by the BWB. LF's smart to stay out of it. But there have been hints already that soon the situation will consolidate - there's this big Frey/Lannister wedding on the horizon and the BWB is planning a little something.... Now lets assume we get a second Red Weddings, that's probably goodbye for the Lannisters and Freys. But it's also probably goodbye for Edmure, who is a Lannister hostage right now and would surely get killed in retaliation. And who's next in line for Riverrun then?

The Lannisters decimated, the Riverlands back under control of Pro-Stark/Tully-forces - the perfect moment for a Sansa reveal!

Of course, LF can't know that any of this will happen.

Or can he?

Okay, it would be a bit of a stretch that LF has teamed up with UnCat. But what about the BWB fragment led by Ned Dayne? There must have been some plot-related reason to split them up....

They would probably anticipate a retaliation against Edmure and try to free him in time, but if LF is involved, he can surely find a way to make that attempt fail.

Riverrun would be way cooler for LF than the Eerie or Winterfell:
1) For Winterfell, LF would have to risk open confrontation with Stannis and the Boltons - LF doesn't like open confrontation, so Winterfell can wait.
2) For the Eerie, LF would have to marry off Sansa, whom he wants to save for the Iron Throne (and ideally, himself).

[Sir Jaime]

NotSoSilentSister, on 13 August 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I really hope Sansa doesn't kill LF too soon - he's just such an entertaining bastard. (Also, I think that it would be only fitting if Sansa got to use him for her own agenda for a little while first).

If LF indeed ever seriously considered the Harry-the-Heir-strategy, you can bet that he has made sure that Harry is utterly and irrevocably in his pocket already. LF must have some dirt on Harry, otherwise he would never take the risk to install him as Lord of the Vale - a new Lord dieing  too soon after Sweet Robin would raise suspicions indeed and LF usually operates with more plausible deniability. Scenarios in which Harry turns out be a decent guy, turns against LF and helps Sansa win back Winterfell are highly unlikely - LF would have made sure of that.

But even if Harry is utterly LF's creature, such a plan can not be implemented over night. If LF wants to play it safe - and he usually does - he'll wait with the Sansa reveal till the Lannisters are too broke to retaliate. And ideally he'd wait with the Sweet Robin disposal till Sansa has born a male heir for Harry. And then, there are still too many variables in the plan: What if Sansa has only daughters for a while? What if she's infertile? What if she dies in childbirth?

So, no, Harry is probably not plan A.

Harry the heir is lord of the vale once Robin is dead, its not LF's doing and he wont be able to have the choice of whether to install him or not.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think  harry is plan A because LF was drunk whern he explained sansa his plan (in vino veritas as the romans said )

[NotSoSilentSister]

Sir Jaime, on 15 August 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Harry the heir is lord of the vale once Robin is dead, its not LF's doing and he wont be able to have the choice of whether to install him or not.

But he might have information about Harry that could turn his bannermen against him and blackmail him with it, so that Harry would be effectively his puppet. That's what I meant with "Got dirt on him". I don't think that LF would risk installing someone he might not be able to control. If Harry could easily turn against him, LF would be a lot more concerned about Sweet Robin's health.

[NotSoSilentSister]

the Scorpion Knight, on 15 August 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

I think  harry is plan A because LF was drunk whern he explained sansa his plan (in vino veritas as the romans said )

That's a valid observation though. I wouldn't agree that drunk people are necessarily more truthful, but it's possible that LF slipped up here.  It might be indeed one of the plans LF seriously considers. I still don't think it's the only one, or even his main one.  More along the lines of "If it works, neat... if not, well....".

[aedalia]

Littlefinger plays the long game, I think everyone can agree to that. He'll wait, for how ever long it take to get to where he wants to be.

So, it's possible he was truthful to Sansa- he needs her to seduce Harry the Heir to cement control of the Vale and the North, so he had to share his plan. He has Harrenhall and the Tullys would back Sansa. That's a good chunk of the world that he gets to be "godfather" of.


My question, though is, if Sansa+Harry is new based on recent events, what was his old plan?

[the Scorpion Knight]

aedalia, on 16 August 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Littlefinger plays the long game, I think everyone can agree to that. He'll wait, for how ever long it take to get to where he wants to be.

Varys and illyrio play the long game. LF is just an gambling addict who can't stop

[Crownex]

Has anybody considered the idea that Sansa may be really Littlefinger’s natural daughter from Catelyn? That would explain LF’s caring better than a Humbert Humbert complex. He wouldn’t tell her at this point, but he is not wasting time keeping her apprenticed for a successful double life and getting her used to his paternity. Once Sansa is married to the heir of the Vale LF can easily switch 2 identities in her head never losing control of her, now through blood ties as much as through complicity.

[ElizaMartell]

Crownex, on 01 September 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Has anybody considered the idea that Sansa may be really Littlefinger’s natural daughter from Catelyn? That would explain LF’s caring better than a Humbert Humbert complex. He wouldn’t tell her at this point, but he is not wasting time keeping her apprenticed for a successful double life and getting her used to his paternity. Once Sansa is married to the heir of the Vale LF can easily switch 2 identities in her head never losing control of her, now through blood ties as much as through complicity.

That wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. Catelyn for one hadn't seen Littlefinger since his failed battle with Brandon, years before Sansa was born. Timeline and story wise its logically impossible.