312 replies to this topic

[Jayce]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 15 April 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

But nothing of the sort can happen until Tyrion is disposed of, and that's not happening any time soon, so . . .

I've seen this crop up a few times, people think that because Sansa is married to Tyrion nothing can happen (marriage wise) until Tyrion is dealt with (dead).

But, correct me if I'm wrong, their marriage was never consummated, meaning it doesn't count until it is consummated, meaning Sansa can marry someone else if she consummates that marriage?

[Lyanna Stark]

Jayce, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

I've seen this crop up a few times, people think that because Sansa is married to Tyrion nothing can happen (marriage wise) until Tyrion is dealt with (dead).

But, correct me if I'm wrong, their marriage was never consummated, meaning it doesn't count until it is consummated, meaning Sansa can marry someone else if she consummates that marriage?

Even if not consummated, the marriage will need to be annulled by the High Septon and either Sansa or Tyrion will have to personally apply for its annullment. It won't automatically be annulled.

Given the nature of the new High Septon, it's also up in the air how he feels about annulling marriages. He seems extremely fanatic, so how he will react to it is anyone's guess, especially since both Sansa and Tyrion are wanted for kingslaying. If one of them shows up, he might as well clap them in irons, dress them in hairshirts and do the whole "Trial of the Faith" as annull their marriage.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Eyron I]

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Its also not clear Littlefinger has any bad intentions.

Well, he is aware of the danger of sweetsleep, just like Sansa is. Maester Coleman told them both that only a little and not often is doable, and even then he was opposed to it. Roberts health is not Petyrs priority, and that is very clear. The only reason to even bring up that it is dangerous for Robert and that Petyr goes ahead with this is to show us that Petyr disregard Roberts safety. From the perspective of Robert, yes Petyr has bad intentions. From Petyrs pov his intentions are fine, of course.

Sansa then learns that Robert should not have any more in at least half a year but forces the maester to give him the dose anyway. Wether she believes or trusts the maester is another matter.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

she is.

Well that's a matter of opinion and I will disregard it.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

aware of what? sweet sleep is poison.  I assume she knows that.  But it also has medicinal properties.

It has, but is is only used with high restriction and lethal medicines should NOT be used because someone want a boy to be presentable for their own scheme to work when there are better medicinal options.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

What?  Why is the boy important at all?

He is her cousin, maybe her only living relative besides Jon [ETA as far as she knows]. She may not like him but I doubt she would want him harmed, and as we see in her thoughts regarding the descent and the sweetsleep, she is convinced that it is the only way. Her motives seem to be to follow Petyrs wishes more than anything else. Also, the boy needs to live for a while longer for the plan to work, so his health is important.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Safer for who?

For Robert.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

That's true. There's also no reason she should care about Robert Arryn.

She should care that he survives at least a while for the sake of the plot, if not for him being her cousin. Given the maester tried to refuse to give him sweetsleep and stresses that it is too soon, asks about nose bleed, and says this must be the last time for at least half a year, we can assume Robert's health and life is at risk. We also know from this passage that it will not be the last time in half a year, Robert will be given sweetsleep at the feast too, when they reach the ground.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Its not acute.  It builds up over time.  by definition that's not acute.

It is acute in high doses, but he is not a grown man and that requires smaller dosages for the same effect. How do you know how much time must pass before another dose is given? The maester definitely seems to think that half a year is a minimum, if not even too soon, for the next dose, and he had already been given too much in the maesters opinion. The master does not say it builds up over time, he says it stays in the system and that could mean that three doses can kill even if they are destributed over time, if there is not enough time in between. We don't know how it affects the system enough to say that the dilution makes it much less toxic. With a medicine as dangerous as this, normal procedure should be to take caution against any risk of poisoning, better safe than sorry.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

nah, that's if taken all at once.  It'll take years for the toxins to build up enough for Robert Arryn to die from the sweet sleep.  But he'll probably died from something else before that anyway.

Who knows how a small boy will react to it. Nobody has said it takes years to build up as you say, we only know that three pinches is lethal, not how the interval affects the response.

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

oh maybe. mostly I think petyr just wants him to sit down and shut the fuck up and be lucid for presentation from time to time.

Yes that's true, but Petyr may accidentally kill of his lord, so is Petyr careless with giving a lethal drug combined with two other sedatives given regularly to Robert or does he mean to slowly poison the boy?

Raksha the Demon, on 15 April 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Sansa's dialogue with the maester and her own thoughts on the matter are troubling; to me they shows that Sansa is in danger of moral corruption from Littlefinger, but has not yet crossed the line.  

There's no indication that she believes Robert's life is in danger, no indication that Sansa knows that three pinches of sweetsleep will kill someone.  Her thought about what is best for Lord Arryn not necessarily being best for the boy also does not mean that Sansa understands that Robert is being tranquilized to the point of killing him; since being poisoned/killed is definitely not 'best' for Lord Arryn - and Robert is Lord Arryn.  

It could be that Petyr had told Sansa that the maester was a hypochondriac who couldn't see the necessity of presenting   Lord Arryn awake to his Vale-lords.  

Also, if little Lord Arryn is unconscious for days when they descend the Eyrie; the Vale-lords might get testy, remove the boy from Littlefinger and evict Littlefinger from his Lord Protectorship; and then who will protect Sansa from arrest by Cersei's agents for kingslaying?  Sansa might be stopping herself from questioning Littlefinger's designs, sub-consciously or otherwise.

Yes, Sansa probably knows nothing of how the sweetsleep works, but she has been warned by the maester about how dangerous it is, not that it takes three pinches to kill though.
At my first reads, my interpretation was that she thinks it's the only way for Robert to get down off the mountain, but when I read it now again I was also worried about her rationale in this situation.

The part I bolded is what I tried to express in my post before, but I'm not very good at expressing myself. She probably thinks that Petyrs way is the only way to keep herself safe. Another point is that she believes Robert may be going mad, and from her experience with unstable people like Joffrey and Lysa, this could cause her to be irrational. I don't think she would help kill Robert conciously, but she may make decisions to save herself from another mad ruler unconciously.

My interpretation is that she is convinced that Petyr is right in his assement of the situation so far, and she thinks that there is no other way. But, she seems to be aware of the danger to Robert's health, I just don't think she realises how much danger he is in. For Petyrs plan to work out (the plan that she is told of, his true motivations aside), Robert needs to stay alive until she is married to Harry the heir, or Petyrs title as protector will be challenged and since they are no longer safely up in the Eyrie they can't keep the lords away. They must keep Robert alive until the marriage is settled at least. I don't think Petyr really wants Harry to inherit, because he would loose his title and probably have to return to Harrenhal, something he does not want to do, so I think Harry would have an "accident" (if the marriage happens at all) in a torney or some other way, soon after the marriage and an heir is under way. Sansa who is beginning to learn the game could have decided to follow through with the marriage depending on what kind of person Harry turns out to be, and then act. I doubt she really is playing Petyrs game, and her true identity is still there as we saw when she was building the snow-miniature of Winterfell.
I don't think much of this will happen though (except perhaps the marriage and Robert's likely death), I don't think there is enough time left, since you know winter is coming... So I think things will not go according to anyone's plan.

Edited by Eaeron I, 16 April 2012 - 05:43 AM.

[DragonSpawn]

Quick Q: How would Littlefinger benefit from his plan to marry Harry to Allayne and then announce Allayne is Sansa?

That's too selfless to be right for LF surely!? There is also the huge risk that Harry would throw him out once he took up his role as Lord of the Vale anyway. Also - there is some battle of wits already in play... Sansa was warned about Randa in the Eeryie because Randa is clearly of the opinion that Allayne is Sansa - else why would she risk her life going up the mountain to simply speak with some randoms bastard daughter? Which makes me think this plan involving Harry is just to tempt Sansa to his cause and keep her loyal as it is surely in the Vales interest to announce Allayne as Sansa and marry her to Robert Arryn with Bronze Yohn Royce as Lord Protector. (LF is just giving Sansa the option of marrying a man rather than a sickly boy, which he is hoping will tempt her) - at the end of the day his plan sounds too good for Sansa to be true... so it probably isn't true...

Ser Shadrich has also probably warned Littlefinger that others are coming to hunt for Sansa in the Vale, so how long before he HAS to declare who she is? Seems to me there must be another plan that Littlefinger has as this one only seems to benefit Sansa and Harry ... not himself.

Edited by DragonSpawn, 16 April 2012 - 05:45 AM.

[Eyron I]

DragonSpawn, on 16 April 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Quick Q: How would Littlefinger benefit from his plan to marry Harry to Allayne and then announce Allayne is Sansa?

I don't think he would benefit from it, I think this part was only to secure Sansa's participation. He probably has some other plan, but it could involve the marriage and a sudden accident for poor Harry. Sansa would not be revealed though.

ETA: which means Sansa is probably going to have an accident herself, after having a son, in this scheme? Don't know but that seems to fit. Grandpa Petyr would stay as lord protector...

Edited by Eaeron I, 16 April 2012 - 05:54 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

DragonSpawn, on 16 April 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Quick Q: How would Littlefinger benefit from his plan to marry Harry to Allayne and then announce Allayne is Sansa?

That's too selfless to be right for LF surely!? There is also the huge risk that Harry would throw him out once he took up his role as Lord of the Vale anyway. Also - there is some battle of wits already in play... Sansa was warned about Randa in the Eeryie because Randa is clearly of the opinion that Allayne is Sansa - else why would she risk her life going up the mountain to simply speak with some randoms bastard daughter? Which makes me think this plan involving Harry is just to tempt Sansa to his cause and keep her loyal as it is surely in the Vales interest to announce Allayne as Sansa and marry her to Robert Arryn with Bronze Yohn Royce as Lord Protector. (LF is just giving Sansa the option of marrying a man rather than a sickly boy, which he is hoping will tempt her) - at the end of the day his plan sounds too good for Sansa to be true... so it probably isn't true...

Ser Shadrich has also probably warned Littlefinger that others are coming to hunt for Sansa in the Vale, so how long before he HAS to declare who she is? Seems to me there must be another plan that Littlefinger has as this one only seems to benefit Sansa and Harry ... not himself.

Littlefinger is hedging his bets. LF *always* hedges his bets. He's set up his pawns, but he's not going with only one option. The end result is that he wants Sansa and all the power for himself, but being the ruthless, cold individual that he is, how he gets there is less important. Hell, he doesn't even much care what state Sansa is in, since he was ok to leave her for months in KL being beaten and forcifully married to a dwarf.

His plan A seems to involve sweetrobin dying conveniently (which would be even more ironic if sweetrobin is indeed his won son by Lysa), but I am sure that is not his only foothold. He's bought up all the Waynwood's debts, so he owns them almost outright. He's brokered the marriage for Lyonel Corbray with the merchant's daughter, so he's got fingers in their money as well, undoubtedly. If the younger Lord Hunter offs the elder and LF could gain proof, he has a hold over him that family too. Harry only needs to work as a figurehead to marry Sansa to since he looks the part and has the heritage, more or less. If LF's plans work out, Sansa will be his partner in crime, which means they together can make a play for the north, the vale and the riverlands.

LF clearly meant for the Lannisters to self implode, and he already has a hold on the Tyrells via brokering Margaery's marriage and Olenna's/Margaery's involvement in Joffrey's death. When they do, the Lannister hold on Riverrun will be weakened and the Tyrells don't care for the Frey's anyway. LF being the highest lord of the Riverlands via Harrenhall can then have a say on who's claiming Riverrun.

Once Sansa and Harry has a few kids, I am sure he means for Harry to have an unfortunate "accident" somewhere and himself being able to console the grieving widow, who just happens to have half the country as her domain.

[DragonSpawn]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Littlefinger is hedging his bets. LF *always* hedges his bets. He's set up his pawns, but he's not going with only one option. The end result is that he wants Sansa and all the power for himself, but being the ruthless, cold individual that he is, how he gets there is less important. Hell, he doesn't even much care what state Sansa is in, since he was ok to leave her for months in KL being beaten and forcifully married to a dwarf.

His plan A seems to involve sweetrobin dying conveniently (which would be even more ironic if sweetrobin is indeed his won son by Lysa), but I am sure that is not his only foothold. He's bought up all the Waynwood's debts, so he owns them almost outright. He's brokered the marriage for Lyonel Corbray with the merchant's daughter, so he's got fingers in their money as well, undoubtedly. If the younger Lord Hunter offs the elder and LF could gain proof, he has a hold over him that family too. Harry only needs to work as a figurehead to marry Sansa to since he looks the part and has the heritage, more or less. If LF's plans work out, Sansa will be his partner in crime, which means they together can make a play for the north, the vale and the riverlands.

LF clearly meant for the Lannisters to self implode, and he already has a hold on the Tyrells via brokering Margaery's marriage and Olenna's/Margaery's involvement in Joffrey's death. When they do, the Lannister hold on Riverrun will be weakened and the Tyrells don't care for the Frey's anyway. LF being the highest lord of the Riverlands via Harrenhall can then have a say on who's claiming Riverrun.

Once Sansa and Harry has a few kids, I am sure he means for Harry to have an unfortunate "accident" somewhere and himself being able to console the grieving widow, who just happens to have half the country as her domain.

I just think the whole Harry plan is a mis-direction for Sansa's benefit and noone elses. It's too risky for Littlefinger. It's pretty obvious he would lose his enitre claim on everyone in the Vale if this happened - the most likely outcome would be that he would be taken hostage by the lords of the Vale to keep him under control. Sansa is Cat and Neds Daughter and nothing to do with him. They may appreciate him saving Sansa but that seems unlikely too given his lies etc... and the most important factor of all... Sansa knows that him and Lysa have been secretly plotting. Harrys death would also be suspicious... Littlefinger likes to keep his hands clean... he always relies on others to do his dirty work - with one exception: Lysa Arryn... and he did this in front of a weirwood throne...

Seems to me the Starks are very good at breaking the rules that others have set down...

Robb Stark - was too young to win any battles against Tywin, but he won all his battles.
Arya - too young to be a Faceless Man surely but so far has made Jacquen H'ghar wet his pants thinking he had to take his own life and the Kindly man clearly being a little flustered at how quickly she worked out it was him beating her when she was blind.
Bran - even he was told he couldn't speak through the weirwood network by Bloodraven... and he has talked to Theon already "the trees know my name"
Sansa - Littlefinger is teaching her the art of lying and playing the game and how to 'keep your hands clean' but has to break his rule to save Sansa... Sansa may eventually realise that if it wasn't for him molesting her Lysa wouldn't have tried to throw her out the door.... but again the Stark kids are making a mockey of others plans whether they intend to or not.

Reminds me of the line: "we men make our plans, but the gods smash them all to pieces" (I think a Varys / Illeryio quote)

Seems to me the most likely outcome for Sansa is that Littlefinger will kill her...

[Lyanna Stark]

DragonSpawn, on 16 April 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

I just think the whole Harry plan is a mis-direction for Sansa's benefit and noone elses. It's too risky for Littlefinger. It's pretty obvious he would lose his enitre claim on everyone in the Vale if this happened - the most likely outcome would be that he would be taken hostage by the lords of the Vale to keep him under control. Sansa is Cat and Neds Daughter and nothing to do with him. They may appreciate him saving Sansa but that seems unlikely too given his lies etc... and the most important factor of all... Sansa knows that him and Lysa have been secretly plotting. Harrys death would also be suspicious... Littlefinger likes to keep his hands clean... he always relies on others to do his dirty work - with one exception: Lysa Arryn... and he did this in front of a weirwood throne...

Hmm, why would they take him hostage? He is still the high lord of Harrenhall and was Sansa's "protector" from the "slander" from Kings Landing and the Lannisters. Whomever comes after the Lannisters will most likely be Lannister enemies, and LF can endear him to them by way of Sansa, since Sansa was a victim of the Lannisters and the Lannisters beheaded Ned. The Vale lords also sympathised with the Starks, so LF showing them that he protected and hid Sansa will stand him in good stead, not bad.

Since LF also owns a lot of them, I doubt they would want to harm him. He's tightening the noose on the Vale lords more and more.

The only Vale lord who is opposed to LF at the end of AFFC is Bronze Yohn Royce and even he could support a Stark, and especially Ned's daughter as he was a friend of Ned.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Eaeron I, on 16 April 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Well, he is aware of the danger of sweetsleep, just like Sansa is. Maester Coleman told them both that only a little and not often is doable, and even then he was opposed to it. Roberts health is not Petyrs priority, and that is very clear. The only reason to even bring up that it is dangerous for Robert and that Petyr goes ahead with this is to show us that Petyr disregard Roberts safety. From the perspective of Robert, yes Petyr has bad intentions. From Petyrs pov his intentions are fine, of course.

Petyr does want him to die immediately. Beyond that Robert is likely to die of his own accord.  

Quote

Sansa then learns that Robert should not have any more in at least half a year but forces the maester to give him the dose anyway. Wether she believes or trusts the maester is another matter.

Well that's a matter of opinion and I will disregard it.

It has, but is is only used with high restriction and lethal medicines should NOT be used because someone want a boy to be presentable for their own scheme to work when there are better medicinal options.

Why not?

Quote

He is her cousin, maybe her only living relative besides Jon [ETA as far as she knows]. She may not like him but I doubt she would want him harmed, and as we see in her thoughts regarding the descent and the sweetsleep, she is convinced that it is the only way. Her motives seem to be to follow Petyrs wishes more than anything else. Also, the boy needs to live for a while longer for the plan to work, so his health is important.

the sweet sleep is going to kill him immediately

Quote

For Robert.

She should care that he survives at least a while for the sake of the plot, if not for him being her cousin. Given the maester tried to refuse to give him sweetsleep and stresses that it is too soon, asks about nose bleed, and says this must be the last time for at least half a year, we can assume Robert's health and life is at risk. We also know from this passage that it will not be the last time in half a year, Robert will be given sweetsleep at the feast too, when they reach the ground.

It is acute in high doses, but he is not a grown man and that requires smaller dosages for the same effect. How do you know how much time must pass before another dose is given? The maester definitely seems to think that half a year is a minimum, if not even too soon, for the next dose, and he had already been given too much in the maesters opinion. The master does not say it builds up over time, he says it stays in the system and that could mean that three doses can kill even if they are destributed over time, if there is not enough time in between. We don't know how it affects the system enough to say that the dilution makes it much less toxic. With a medicine as dangerous as this, normal procedure should be to take caution against any risk of poisoning, better safe than sorry.

Who knows how a small boy will react to it. Nobody has said it takes years to build up as you say, we only know that three pinches is lethal, not how the interval affects the response.

well that's true. but most medicines or poisons don't work that way. Its not clear maester is concerned about death, rather than some other negative side effects.  I just don't think death is the reasonable conclusion to draw rather adverse long term side effects.

Quote

Yes that's true, but Petyr may accidentally kill of his lord, so is Petyr careless with giving a lethal drug combined with two other sedatives given regularly to Robert or does he mean to slowly poison the boy?

Petyr doesn't strike me as being careless. Nor do I think Maester's concern is death.

Quote

Yes, Sansa probably knows nothing of how the sweetsleep works, but she has been warned by the maester about how dangerous it is, not that it takes three pinches to kill though.
At my first reads, my interpretation was that she thinks it's the only way for Robert to get down off the mountain, but when I read it now again I was also worried about her rationale in this situation.

why are your worried about it?

Quote

The part I bolded is what I tried to express in my post before, but I'm not very good at expressing myself. She probably thinks that Petyrs way is the only way to keep herself safe. Another point is that she believes Robert may be going mad, and from her experience with unstable people like Joffrey and Lysa, this could cause her to be irrational. I don't think she would help kill Robert conciously, but she may make decisions to save herself from another mad ruler unconciously.

she should. he's not likely to live that long anyway. plus he's a little pain in the ass.

Quote

My interpretation is that she is convinced that Petyr is right in his assement of the situation so far, and she thinks that there is no other way. But, she seems to be aware of the danger to Robert's health, I just don't think she realises how much danger he is in. For Petyrs plan to work out (the plan that she is told of, his true motivations aside), Robert needs to stay alive until she is married to Harry the heir, or Petyrs title as protector will be challenged and since they are no longer safely up in the Eyrie they can't keep the lords away. They must keep Robert alive until the marriage is settled at least. I don't think Petyr really wants Harry to inherit, because he would loose his title and probably have to return to Harrenhal, something he does not want to do, so I think Harry would have an "accident" (if the marriage happens at all) in a torney or some other way, soon after the marriage and an heir is under way. Sansa who is beginning to learn the game could have decided to follow through with the marriage depending on what kind of person Harry turns out to be, and then act. I doubt she really is playing Petyrs game, and her true identity is still there as we saw when she was building the snow-miniature of Winterfell.
.

And Robert came over and knocked it down. Also, she didn't know about the marriage plan back then.  

Quote

I don't think much of this will happen though (except perhaps the marriage and Robert's likely death), I don't think there is enough time left, since you know winter is coming... So I think things will not go according to anyone's plan

I don't think it will happen either, it seems like a ridiculous plan

[DragonSpawn]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Hmm, why would they take him hostage? He is still the high lord of Harrenhall and was Sansa's "protector" from the "slander" from Kings Landing and the Lannisters.

I was thinking along the same lines as you but slightly different reasoning...

Quote

Since LF also owns a lot of them .... He's tightening the noose on the Vale lords more and more.

For this reason i figured they would not want him to have any more control... and why would they have to put up with it? they have already told him to go back to Harrenhall... which Littlefinger won't do because he knows it will be the end of him due to the curse... so they have nothing to stop them from saying - "thanks very much for bringing us Sansa - go back to Harrenhall and rule us from there"... and call his bluff... if he refuses (which he pretty much has to) they just take him hostage... but whether they are smart enough to know this i don't know so your views may be more accurate. There's just too many if's and but's with Littlefinger - but at the end of the day if Sansa has the right motivation she could bring down LF in a heartbeat. He has to keep her sweet or kill her...

[Lyanna Stark]

DragonSpawn, on 16 April 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

For this reason i figured they would not want him to have any more control... and why would they have to put up with it? they have already told him to go back to Harrenhall... which Littlefinger won't do because he knows it will be the end of him due to the curse... so they have nothing to stop them from saying - "thanks very much for bringing us Sansa - go back to Harrenhall and rule us from there"... and call his bluff... if he refuses (which he pretty much has to) they just take him hostage... but whether they are smart enough to know this i don't know so your views may be more accurate. There's just too many if's and but's with Littlefinger - but at the end of the day if Sansa has the right motivation she could bring down LF in a heartbeat. He has to keep her sweet or kill her...

They played their hand early though as the Lords Declarant. LF even counted how many he now owns. The Waynwoods, the Corbrays, Royce lesser, etc. He's clearly banking on the Hunters to do a lot of work themselves, so I think after a year, LF will have the Vale lords in his hand.

Harry will be the figurehead as well, not LF himself and that, they can accept. LF will just be the kindly stepfather and advisor, of course. I'm sure he has already thought of ways to put the thumbscrews on Harry, should he need it.

I too think Sansa will be the end of LF. He is reaching too far and Sansa is his blind spot. It only takes that she learns some of the things LF has done, most of all the betrayal of her father, and he's done for. LF doesn't know she has kept the hairnet with the Strangler in it so maybe LF will be served a certain drink and that's all it takes...

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Eyron I]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

I too think Sansa will be the end of LF. He is reaching too far and Sansa is his blind spot. It only takes that she learns some of the things LF has done, most of all the betrayal of her father, and he's done for. LF doesn't know she has kept the hairnet with the Strangler in it so maybe LF will be served a certain drink and that's all it takes...

Do you mean Chekov's hairnet? Yes, yes, let it be so. That would hopefully give the "Sansa is a naive insipid girl, not to mention a traitor -crowd" some pause.

[DragonSpawn]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

They played their hand early though as the Lords Declarant. LF even counted how many he now owns. The Waynwoods, the Corbrays, Royce lesser, etc. He's clearly banking on the Hunters to do a lot of work themselves, so I think after a year, LF will have the Vale lords in his hand.

Harry will be the figurehead as well, not LF himself and that, they can accept. LF will just be the kindly stepfather and advisor, of course. I'm sure he has already thought of ways to put the thumbscrews on Harry, should he need it.

I too think Sansa will be the end of LF. He is reaching too far and Sansa is his blind spot. It only takes that she learns some of the things LF has done, most of all the betrayal of her father, and he's done for. LF doesn't know she has kept the hairnet with the Strangler in it so maybe LF will be served a certain drink and that's all it takes...

Here's a Q... Say LF does go through with this nonsense of matchmaking Harry and Sansa... and all goes as he suggests... either a - Sansa will have to swear fealty to the crown... or b - the Vale would be in open rebellion against the crown... seeing as option b is pretty much the only answer... Littlefinger would be declaring himself against the crown. Now that can't be right... one word from Cersei or Tommen and Littlefinger becomes a traitor... loses his status as Lord of Harrenhall... and the Vale lords can throw him out... at the moment this is as far as Littlefingers plans go... so he will openly win the favour of the Vale by joining them in rebellion against the Lannisters... he could reveal their incest is true (maybe even wave Maya around in their faces) and go to war, advising Sansa and Harry on how to win the kingdom and defeat the crown... that all sounds quite good.... but i don't think anyone in a million years believes that LF aint such a bad guy and that this is how it will play out... simply put ... where's the gain for LF? - i only see him losing lands and titles and power...

Littlfinger mentioned removing Cersei from the game sooner than planned... so is he hoping that all of the Lannisters will be killed and therefore has no intention of declaring Sansa until the Lannisters are dead? I think this raises the question of whether Littlefinger knows what Varys is up to or even if these two are working together... because it seems to me that Littlefinger could marry Sansa to Aegon and take the Lannisters and Martells out of the equation in one fell swoop... maybe even taking Casterly Rock in the bargain for himself.

Edited by DragonSpawn, 16 April 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Lummel]

I would agree that the tale that Littlefinger span to Sansa about Harry the Heir relies on Sansa being relatively naive about the political situation.  It will be interesting to see what she starts to think now that she is in a position to get something other than Littlefinger News.

The arrival of Aegon is going to shake up the situation and no doubt Littlefinger will want to adapt his plans.

[Lyanna Stark]

Eaeron I, on 16 April 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

Do you mean Chekov's hairnet? Yes, yes, let it be so. That would hopefully give the "Sansa is a naive insipid girl, not to mention a traitor -crowd" some pause.

Totally. But then they'll complain that poison is a woman's weapon and she should have taken a mallet to his head instead.

DragonSpawn, on 16 April 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Here's a Q... Say LF does go through with this nonsense of matchmaking Harry and Sansa... and all goes as he suggests... either a - Sansa will have to swear fealty to the crown... or b - the Vale would be in open rebellion against the crown... seeing as option b is pretty much the only answer... Littlefinger would be declaring himself against the crown. Now that can't be right... one word from Cersei or Tommen and Littlefinger becomes a traitor... loses his status as Lord of Harrenhall... and the Vale lords can throw him out... at the moment this is as far as Littlefingers plans go... so he will openly win the favour of the Vale by joining them in rebellion against the Lannisters... he could reveal their incest is true (maybe even wave Maya around in their faces) and go to war, advising Sansa and Harry on how to win the kingdom and defeat the crown... that all sounds quite good.... but i don't think anyone in a million years believes that LF aint such a bad guy and that this is how it will play out... simply put ... where's the gain for LF? - i only see him losing lands and titles and power...

Littlfinger mentioned removing Cersei from the game sooner than planned... so is he hoping that all of the Lannisters will be killed and therefore has no intention of declaring Sansa until the Lannisters are dead? I think this raises the question of whether Littlefinger knows what Varys is up to or even if these two are working together... because it seems to me that Littlefinger could marry Sansa to Aegon and take the Lannisters and Martells out of the equation in one fell swoop... maybe even taking Casterly Rock in the bargain for himself.

Sansa is only 13 though, so LF has time. Nobody in the Vale has yet to guess that Alayne is Sansa (not even Myranda, who after Sansa slips up with Jon Snow comments on Alayne/Sansa's breasts and says "I shant concern myself with those as they are bastard breasts" so she clearly thinks Sanlayne really is a bastard. LF also needs some more time to cement is own position with the Vale lords and he probably wants to do some other scheming as well, not to mention he needs to groom Sansa further.

LF may very well end up trying to marry Sansa to Aegon once he realises Aegon is a better match than Harry. In fact, I think the Dornish and the Tyrells will have to move fast if they want to snatch Fake!Aegon before LF tries to match him up with Sansa.

Of course, there is the additional plot armour for Sansa in that the High Septon needs to annull her marriage to Tyrion and the High Septon had Margaery investigated to check her maidenhead   It may mean that Sansa will have to go to Kings Landing and be "investigated" by the septas and what have you. The question is: if she does a bit more donkey or horse riding, does she even have a maidenhead left to investigate? The entire thing is ewwwh. Not to mention that travelling to Kings Landing while the Lannisters are in charge would mean Almost Certain Death.

The logistics of getting Sansa to KL would be pretty difficult, so I think her marriage to Tyrion will work as a wrench in LF's plans for a while longer.

Lummel, on 16 April 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

I would agree that the tale that Littlefinger span to Sansa about Harry the Heir relies on Sansa being relatively naive about the political situation.  It will be interesting to see what she starts to think now that she is in a position to get something other than Littlefinger News.

The arrival of Aegon is going to shake up the situation and no doubt Littlefinger will want to adapt his plans.

Absolutely. Myranda seems to be fairly well informed and there seems to be enough travellers coming to the Vale even in wintertime for there to be a steady flow of news. It's definitely better for Sanlayne to be out of the Eyrie and at the Gates than alone with LF. She's already had some info on Harry from Myranda as well, and it wasn't all great.

I also think LF is underestimating how absolutely fed up Sanlayne is with arranged marriages.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[Lummel]

Littlefinger's position in the vale is very precarious.  Like you said above Lyanna, Littlefinger 'owns' those lords he's won over.  I'm sure they are very much aware that he has bought up their debts, knows about their crimes, bribed them with lands and offices and are very much aware that he is some N00b lord jumped up from a Braavosi mercenary.  The Vale aristocracy don't love him and won't love him.  It wouldn't take much for them to turn on him.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lummel, on 16 April 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Littlefinger's position in the vale is very precarious.  Like you said above Lyanna, Littlefinger 'owns' those lords he's won over.  I'm sure they are very much aware that he has bought up their debts, knows about their crimes, bribed them with lands and offices and are very much aware that he is some N00b lord jumped up from a Braavosi mercenary.  The Vale aristocracy don't love him and won't love him.  It wouldn't take much for them to turn on him.

Absolutely, and I think LF knows this, which is why he is hard at work. Sanlayne notices in AFFC that he hardly seems to sleep and is always busy. Clearly, even if things are going well at the moment, LF is not resting on his laurels.

As we have seen before as well, LF has a lot of interests in a lot of places. Since the Faith Militant is now shutting down brothels in Kings Landing, they are bound to have already touched some of LF's own establishments, for instance, so he should know fairly well what sort of people they are. He will definitely know about the Tyrells and what they are doing, and he seems to be clued up on Dany, too, at least to a degree. I'm sure he knows Cersei won't last long. The questionmark is Fake!Aegon who is an unknown quantity. And I doubt LF has any hold on the Stannis faction either, but Stannis would probably honour a Stark in Winterfell though.

[DragonSpawn]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

...I think her marriage to Tyrion will work as a wrench in LF's plans for a while longer.

I think both Jon and Tryion are going to be a blindspot for Littlefinger... Littlefinger once said about Ned: "He can't lie for love nor honour" - which makes me think he doesn't know about Jon Snow as he is the proof that Ned can lie for both love and honour... and Tyrion likes living which goes against Littlefingers plans somewhat!

I have a feeling both Tyrion and Jon Snow will be coming for Sansa... and that Littlefinger and Aegon will both be involved in trying to hold Sansa ... "A Stone Giant stood over them..." Jon Snow will be coming for Littlefinger and Tyrion will be coming for Aegon... one to save his "cousin" the other to save his wife...

Edited by DragonSpawn, 16 April 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

DragonSpawn, on 16 April 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

I think both Jon and Tryion are going to be a blindspot for Littlefinger... Littlefinger once said about Ned: "He can't lie for love nor honour" - which makes me think he doesn't know about Jon Snow as he is the proof that Ned can lie for both love and honour... and Tyrion likes living which goes against Littlefingers plans somewhat!

Good point! Ned could indeed lie for love. The love he bore his sister. I think it's again driving home what sort of character LF is: that he cannot even imagine Ned ever lying about anything. The imagine his shock if he knew Ned wasn't only lying about having fathered a bastard, but lying about a trueborn Targaryen heir. I actually hope LF still lives when that particular thing is revealed, just so we can revel in his complete WTF expression!  

Quote

I have a feeling both Tyrion and Jon Snow will be coming for Sansa... and that Littlefinger and Aegon will both be involved in trying to hold Sansa ... "A Stone Giant stood over them..." Jon Snow will be coming for Littlefinger and Tyrion will be coming for Aegon... one to save his "cousin" the other to save his wife...

Perhaps, although Sansa is far out of the way of any of them at the moment. With Winter on its way, travelling is going to get rougher and more difficult as well. Of course, Sansa's stay in the Vale may be of some duration so perhaps Jon Snow or Tyrion can reach her, but Tyrion is throwing in his lot with Dany and Jon Snow has the wall and the North to deal with. And the Others too.

The people who are inclined to give Sansa a helping hand (or who are involved in her storyline) are Brienne and Jaime, both oathsworn to save her. And then you have reformed Sandor Clegane on the Quiet Isle, who is fairly nearby and still in possession of his horse, by the looks of it. But can any of them manage to assist Sansa and in that case, how? Showing up as moral support is all fine and dandy, but probably won't move the plot along alot. (Although I do admit, I'd LOVE for Brienne to actually find Sansa, mostly because nobody thought she would.)

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

DragonSpawn, on 16 April 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

I think both Jon and Tryion are going to be a blindspot for Littlefinger... Littlefinger once said about Ned: "He can't lie for love nor honour"

  When did he say that?

Quote

- which makes me think he doesn't know about Jon Snow as he is the proof that Ned can lie for both love and honour... and Tyrion likes living which goes against Littlefingers plans somewhat!

I have a feeling both Tyrion and Jon Snow will be coming for Sansa... and that Littlefinger and Aegon will both be involved in trying to hold Sansa ... "A Stone Giant stood over them..." Jon Snow will be coming for Littlefinger and Tyrion will be coming for Aegon... one to save his "cousin" the other to save his wife...

Are you people reading the same books I am?  If Sansa can't rescue her self, I don't think she deserves to be rescued.

Anyway, there are some key points. Glimmers of hope that Sansa might one day redeem herself.  But, I think they're a bit too obvious and on the nose to be taken seriously.  I just don't think this is that series.   My hatred for Sansa, notwithstanding, this is the series where Marcella get her ear chopped off, for listening to her sworn guardian.  Who in turn get's his head chopped for equating his sticky fumbling with the love of a princess.  Where the would be prince of winterfell, is fleyed and castrated, where the king of the North gets his head lopped of and replaced with that of his wolf.  Where the prince of Dorne get himself turn into Mongolian Barbecue.

I just don't believe in that world, the likes of Sansa Stark Lannister can best Petyr Baelish.  Arya Stark, sure, but Sansa. It simply defies credulity.  And this idea of some white knight riding in to rescue who, that's demeaning to both Sansa and Jon and/or Tyrion and most of all to the readers.