Raksha the Demon, on 15 April 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:
The word that I was looking for to describe Sansa is passive, so thank you. I only said that it is frustrating and unbelievable, for me, that someone would sit by and take all of that from Joffrey, and not actively seek a way to get away from it. I understand that Arya has always been very different to Sansa, and I get that Yoren took control and took Arya away from Kings Landing, but it just always seems that Arya is more willing to help herself escape bad situations, rather than just try to make them more endurable for herself.
It may be that I'm biased, because I can identify with Arya much more than I can with Sansa, but before Yoren helped her, it seemed to me that she was at least attempting to fend for herself on the streets, by catching pigeons. Obviously she wasn't doing very well, but I can imagine catching pigeons is quite difficult. I can't imagine Sansa doing anything like that. I understand that she had help along the way, I'm not denying that, but Arya seems like she takes a much more active role in helping herself and her friends. I wouldn't say that Lommy, Hot Pie and Gendry were 'saving' her, I'd say they were working together. She realised that she needed them at the time, and she took charge, both with the 'Weasel Soup' and escaping Harrenhall. Sansa does not do things like this.
I have said that I'm not sure what Sansa could have done, there are options, of course, but based on her personality, she probably wouldn't have been able to pull them off. This is why I don't blame Sansa for betraying Ned, and I don't even blame her for not taking a more active role in escaping KL, it just annoys me that she always seems to have someone willing to save her. As you said, Arya earned Jaqens' trust and help, Sansa did nothing to earn LF's help, except being who she is. This is a theme that annoys me, and I understand it's a personal issue, but what can you do - the highborn lady gets the help of a very clever, rich lord who will help her. I know the danger he poses, and for the love of all that's holy, I hope I never have to read about him sexually abusing her or anything like that, but my point is that Sansa, the one who has always dreamed of being a queen, is courteous and innocent, is saved by someone who only wants to save her because of who her mother is, whereas Arya, the scruffy, tomboy-ish girl becomes even more scruffy and tomboy-ish, and has to physically fight her way out of some situations, and is continuously put in more and more danger. The Hound only takes her to the Twins so he can collect some reward money, but I think he saves her from the massacre because he genuinely likes the girl (not in that
As for Sansa attacking Joffrey, I fully understand why she didn't do it, but that doesn't make me like it any more. Better to die free than live a slave, I say.
Lady Kraken, on 15 April 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:
Just a quick comment. I would argue that in ACoK/ASoS Sansa did take an active role in her escape. Instead of waiting for someone to save her, she made the decision to go to the godswood to see who wrote her the note, even though this could have hurt her. She actively meets with Dontos, decides to trust him as Arya decides to trust Yoren, and they begin to work on her escape. When presented with another avenue of escape, the Tyrells, she actively decides to stop chirping out her courtesies and tells them the true nature of Joffrey. She then actively accepts the betrothal to Willas. Later, she actively accepts to wear the hairnet and take off from the wedding. I think it's a bit off to say she just waited for someone to save her; she participated in her escape. Littlefinger didn't carry her out of there.
Yes, she didn't plan any of this herself, but she wasn't completely passive either. She made decisions that could have potentially backfired instead of just accepting her confinement.
I accept that, you're absolutely right. I just feel that, compared to Arya and other people, she appeared to accept things more than I personally would have, which makes it difficult for me to identify with her and her actions. She did actively choose to trust that whoever sent her that note was not trying to trap her, but again, someone else orchestrated it. She did her part in her escape, I won't deny that, but she didn't actively put into action a plan of escape - she waited for someone else to set it off.
Ser Hippie, on 15 April 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:
First, I was actually only being snarky and didn't intend to be rude. so I apologize if I caused offense - sarcasm doesn't translate well sometimes. That being said, this simply isn't true, Arya doesn't proactively save herself, others do it for her (although she does get to stab a couple of people, for whatever that's worth).
Very well, thank you. I don't think saying that 'others do it for her' is completely true, and I accept that she had help, but she does take a more active role in changing her situations. As I said above, she took charge at Harrenhall in both freeing the northmen and making her escape. Gendry, Lommy and Hot Pie (and Weasel, IIRC?) were not that enthusiastic, but they followed her lead.
Arya was saved because Syrio actively interposed himself between her and the guards, and because Yoren actively grabbed her, etc. Arya got a lot of lucky breaks and helpful people with her (rescued by the BwB group that happens to have Harwin in it, etc). Trying to claim there is a stark (pun definitely not intended) dichotomy between Sansa always relying on people and Arya never relying on them simply doesn't match the text.
Having Syrio there was a lucky break, I agree. I did not mean to imply that Arya never
relies on people, I just meant that she had help, yes, but she also actively changed her situation as well, in examples above.
I'm not sure why you think Sansa would turn down a chance to escape because it wasn't a fairytale, since she came to see the very unromantic Ser Dontos as her hero.
It's my interpretation, of course, but again her escape, even with Ser Dontos, seems very fairytale-like. The whole Florian and Jonquil thing, the secret meetings in the godswood, the fool whisking the lady from the tower and the clutches of the evil prince.
Especially when saved by the likes of the former First Sword of Braavos, the Night's Watch, the Brotherhood without Banners, Sandor Clegane and the Faceless Men.
Again yes, lucky for Arya, but she earned the trust of these people. Sansa did nothing to earn the trust or respect of Littlefinger, though I concede that Ser Dontos did owe her his life. When Sansa spoke up for Ser Dontos, I warmed to her slightly, thinking that she was changing and becoming less passive, but it didn't seem to go very far, or should I say, not far enough for me to like her better.
You're misunderstanding or misreading my point completely. You claimed Sansa is a passive, almost willing, victim while Arya actively saves herself. The fact of the matter is that Arya is gifted a number of protecters and other figures that help her escape, she most definitely does not escape on her own. Be it Syrio Forel or Jaqen H'ghar or Yoren, there's always someone else looking after her.
Apologies if that's the case, I did write my last reply at 2am - I rarely make sense anyway, let alone when I'm tired.
As above, I still see Sansas' helpers and Aryas' helpers as completely different. I wouldn't say Sansa is a willing victim, but she definitely does not take as active a role as Arya does. Arya has earned the trust of her helpers, Sansa has not (except Ser Dontos, as above). Arya also orchestrates plans to escape and leads a 'pack', she stands up to the Hound (which I think made him like her, but that's just my interpretation). I just see Arya as a much more feisty, active character than Sansa.
Sided with Tyrion how, and why? She doesn't know him apart from the fact that he's a Lannister and it's not like Tyrion is actively trying to help her beyond being polite. He's not going out of his way to send her home or anything.
I know this, but did it not frustrate you when both Tyrion and Sansa were thinking similar things? I know it frustrated me. Again, I understand why she didn't, but it doesn't mean I like the fact. Tyrion wasn't very clear, I agree, which is another reason why those chapters annoyed me.
How's Sansa supposed to know that Ser Dontos is working for LF? Apparently not a single other person in King's Landing figured it out, even Varys from what we can tell. As for leaving with the Hound, is it really that surprising given the circumstances (mid-battle, he's drunk and possibly thinking of raping her)?
You asked for options and I gave you some. It doesn't mean I think any of them would have been the best. Speaking of the Hound, I wonder why, if she was so terrified of him, Sansa later 'remembers' that he kissed her? But that's off-topic. I don't think I suggested that she should have known that Ser Dontos was working for LF, but it doesn't take a genius to wonder how a fool would be able to save her, when no one else has been able to or even attempted to.
She did think about killing him and the Hound stopped her. In any case, how do you supposed Sansa would acquire and use a sword or poison, as she's trained at neither? It's sort of silly to suggest it would be reasonable to expect someone to act wholly out of character like that.
Again, options. She was raised at Winterfell, so she would have seen sword-fighting going on in the yard. It just doesn't ring true for me that she wouldn't even consider it. Maybe I'm being hard on her because she was raised so gently, but I personally would have attempted anything
to get away from such a situation.
Sure, if it was remotely logical or plausible to escape on your own. Sansa recognized her hopes lay in others (Dontos, the Tyrells, being ransomed), not in planning to cut off Joffrey's head with a dinner knife and then sprout wings to fly to safety. If she was as passive as you claim, why would she even bother dealing with Ser Dontos and his plans?
Her dealing with Ser Dontos was an example of her taking charge of her own life, I agree, but again, she did not orchestrate the plans herself. I've said that I understand why, and if I keep repeating myself I think I might implode, but it doesn't make me like her or her decisions any more. Maybe it's not so much her
I dislike, but more the lack of ability to take control and her completely different mindset to mine. I cannot help that I don't identify with her, that's just who I am and who she is.
Yet you and others judge Sansa but not Ned?
The fact of the matter is that Ned was willing to sacrifice his honor to save his daughters at one point (at his execution) yet was completely unwilling to bend his rules at any other time, when he could have saved the lives of his contingent in King's Landing and many others as well. Ned's so caught up in his obsession with doing the honorable thing that he fails to question the intelligence or 'rightness' of what he's doing.
And, again, Ned is the one who thinks Cersei poisoned Jon Arryn and that Tyrion tried to kill Bran yet he thinks he can scare Cersei away because that's what eases his conscience because he doesn't have to get his hands dirty. Why aren't people accusing Ned of betraying his house by putting his personal honor above the pragmatic demands of reality?
Because he clearly thought that nothing was more important than honour. I kind of agree with what you're saying, but it's a more complicated matter that I don't think I should get into here.
As for judging Sansa, I began my first post by saying that yes I believe she betrayed Ned, or at least went behind his back if 'betrayed' is too strong a word in this instance, but I don't blame her for doing so.