385 replies to this topic

[lojzelote]

Lummel, on 16 April 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

continually?  I can think of two incidents, lying about Joffrey and the direwolf and telling Cersei about the departure plan.




I disagree.

There are three stages.

One The Ned tells Cersei that he is going to have to move against her, politically it is fairly wise to allow her to flee and defuse the situation certainly wiser than arresting Cersei and plunging the realm into civil war, unfortunatly The Ned didn't know that Littlefinger was plannig on causing a Lannister - Stark war.

Two, Sansa tells Cersei her travel plans which means that Cersei now knows not only that The Ned has decided to act but has a timescale in mind and that gives Cersei a timescale too if she wants to seize The Ned's daughters.

Three, and most importantly, Littlefinger decides to doublecross The Ned, quite probably from the moment that The Ned agrees with him to buy the gold cloaks.

Thats the largest military force in kings landing and who they back decides the outcome of the events that follow.

In terms of betrayal I think as in law you have to have intention to betray as well as the act.  Sansa doesn't intend to betray her father - rather she in this incomprehensible situation in which from her point of view sh is suddenly going to be shipped back off to Winterfell and seperated from her intended the crown prince.  Of course she should have seen through the smiles and good looks of the lannisters to have realised what wicked people they were but obviously since she is the most evil person (as set out and proven in the above link) in westeros...

Well, that´s the reason for the inverted commas. I don´t think itˇs truly betrayal what we have on hands, but OP used it in the title. Altough maybe it could be called betrayal of trust on Sansa´s part. Not literal betrayal, mind you.

About the other thing - you are quite possibly right. It´s a long time since my last aGoT re-read.
I still don´t think it was particularly clever of Ned to tell Cesei. If it were me, I would hold my tongue. This is a woman who will lose everything if her secret comes to light. This is a woman who already schemed a murder once (Jon Arryn) to keep her secret - or so Ned thinks. It´s very noble that he wanted to spare her children, but . . . There is a chance - however small - that Cersei will do something desperate. That "something desperate" might not have worked if Cersei didn´t have additional info from Sansa and LF´s help, but it could endanger his daughters in some way, or get some courtiers killed. If it was me and my children versus some other woman and her children I wouldn´t come out as a particularly noble and honorable person, I fear.
(And would Tywin just get up and go into the exile with his whole family, leaving everything in Westeros behind? I must say that this what-if question always troubled me.)

Sansa . . . Look, I don´t think Sansa is evil in any way. Sansa is the character I don´t love, nor hate. I would just expect more from my own family members should similar situation set in. Sansa´s a good girl, who cares for people in general, not only for her family, but she did terrible mistake here. She should had learned from the Lady incident IMO.

Littlefinger is Littlefinfer. Littlefinger is a smoothie. Littlefinger warned Ned not to trust him. Littlefinger gave Ned sound advice to back either Joff or Renly. Ned didn´t listen. Would he truly betray Ned if Ned picked Joffrey or Renly?
The Goldencloakes - if Jeor Mormont´s reaction to them on the subject of their attempted arrest of Barristan Selmy is anything to go by - have pretty unfavourable reputation in the whole 7 Kingdoms.

I guess I just don´t get this "honorable" thing.

P.S.: The usage of "the Ned" puzzles me. I have thought that the clans use it among themselves all the time. Or do I misremember? One of them referred to Ned in that way, but I never took it for an extra compliment. Why do people use it as some form of title? Did I miss anything?
P.P.S. No hard feelings here. I hope I didn´t offend anybody. And again, I don´t hate Sansa. I don´t hate Ned. .But I loathe LF with passion.

[Balintos]

Lummel, on 16 April 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

One The Ned tells Cersei that he is going to have to move against her, politically it is fairly wise to allow her to flee and defuse the situation certainly wiser than arresting Cersei and plunging the realm into civil war, unfortunatly The Ned didn't know that Littlefinger was plannig on causing a Lannister - Stark war.

If he had wait until Robert would return and told Robert the truth I don't think there would be civil war. Who would've support  the Lannisters?

Looks like Sansa was influenced by only Septa Mordane, Ned, Cat, Old Nan, Jeyne Poole and Cersei. It's not surprising that she was naive.

[eyeheartsansa]

Not a betrayal - she was poking into things she didn't understand.  This is perfectly understandable, believable teen/tween behavior.  The only difference is the consequences.

Ned is largely at fault for giving her just enough information to do something stuppid and teenagery, but failying to convey the gravity of the situation.

It's a complex situation, but by no means to I think Sansa deserves to be 'punished.'  She has been punished more than anyone deserves.  If you think being forced to watch her father beheaded and then being dragged to court, stripped and beaten bloody by Joffrey's thugs is too light of a punishment for her, I have to question your ethical judgement as well as your reading comprehension ability!

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

eyeheartsansa, on 16 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Not a betrayal - she was poking into things she didn't understand.  This is perfectly understandable, believable teen/tween behavior.  The only difference is the consequences.

Ned is largely at fault for giving her just enough information to do something stuppid and teenagery, but failying to convey the gravity of the situation.

It's a complex situation, but by no means to I think Sansa deserves to be 'punished.'  She has been punished more than anyone deserves.  If you think being forced to watch her father beheaded and then being dragged to court, stripped and beaten bloody by Joffrey's thugs is too light of a punishment for her, I have to question your ethical judgement as well as your reading comprehension ability!

oh come now. she hasn't really been "punished"  her total existence even at worst has been better than 99% of the people in Westeros.

[Lord Ben]

eyeheartsansa, on 16 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Not a betrayal - she was poking into things she didn't understand.  This is perfectly understandable, believable teen/tween behavior.  The only difference is the consequences.

Complaining about your Dad or telling people of all the unfair things he makes you do to people in most places in the 21st Century is pretty normal believable teen behavior.  I would say in Westeros it's a far more serious crime.

Breaking a vow (divorce, breaking off a marriage, etc) isn't all that terrible now either, but it's certainly horrible in Westeros (Red Wedding).

Edited by Lord Ben, 16 April 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Lummel]

lojzelote, on 16 April 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

...Littlefinger is Littlefinfer. Littlefinger is a smoothie. Littlefinger warned Ned not to trust him. Littlefinger gave Ned sound advice to back either Joff or Renly. Ned didn´t listen. Would he truly betray Ned if Ned picked Joffrey or Renly?

It depends on what Littlefingers plan is (or was).   If he wanted revenge against the Starks then he would have destroyed The Ned at some point in any case.  Since he knew about Cersei and Jaime he was too dangerous to leave alive in any case.

lojzelote, on 16 April 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

The Goldencloakes - if Jeor Mormont´s reaction to them on the subject of their attempted arrest of Barristan Selmy is anything to go by - have pretty unfavourable reputation in the whole 7 Kingdoms.

They are nothing special but there are a lot of them.

lojzelote, on 16 April 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

P.S.: The usage of "the Ned" puzzles me. I have thought that the clans use it among themselves all the time. Or do I misremember? One of them referred to Ned in that way, but I never took it for an extra compliment. Why do people use it as some form of title? ...

If you mean me then it's just because I like it, no other reason.

Balintos, on 16 April 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

If he had wait until Robert would return and told Robert the truth I don't think there would be civil war. Who would've support  the Lannisters?

Looks like Sansa was influenced by only Septa Mordane, Ned, Cat, Old Nan, Jeyne Poole and Cersei. It's not surprising that she was naive.

Well she was being brought up to be married off, Cersei's education also seems to have been pretty deficient for the same reason.  I think as she got older she may well have had been given a more political rounding off - Catelyn mentions going on visits with her father to holdfasts and seeing the Tully lands which was presumably intended to give her some insights into how things were run and who the more important noblemen were.

With regard to civil war, the easiest solution would be if Cersei packed up and fled with her children - instant admission of guilt.  If the Ned denouced her to King Bob, then either he does something stupid like attempting or actually executing her or there would have to be a trial and we've seen how chaotically the course of justice in Westeros runs.  Tywin would have had to called his banners and been prepared to fight - the accusation alone would have been an insult to his house's honour.  Could he have won - maybe not, but he could have made Westeros bleed and war is full of risks and unforseeable events.

eyeheartsansa, on 16 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

...It's a complex situation, but by no means to I think Sansa deserves to be 'punished.'  She has been punished more than anyone deserves...

that's true, she's had a lot of punishment.

[Lummel]

Lord Littlefinger, on 16 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

oh come now. she hasn't really been "punished"  her total existence even at worst has been better than 99% of the people in Westeros.

You think?

The lives of most people in Westeros are harsh but Sansa has been subject to particular cruelty, her father execute before her eyes when she thought he was going to be left alive, stripped humilated and beaten by the boy she thought she loved and hoped to marry, her hopes of a happy life with the tyrells dashed, married to tyrion who installs his mistress in their appartments, threatened with death by her aunt only to see her murdered...

By any standard Sansa has been subjected to a series of cruel disillusionments and hard treatment.

[Dracarya]

Raksha the Demon, on 15 April 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

<snipped for space>

The word that I was looking for to describe Sansa is passive, so thank you. I only said that it is frustrating and unbelievable, for me, that someone would sit by and take all of that from Joffrey, and not actively seek a way to get away from it. I understand that Arya has always been very different to Sansa, and I get that Yoren took control and took Arya away from Kings Landing, but it just always seems that Arya is more willing to help herself escape bad situations, rather than just try to make them more endurable for herself.

It may be that I'm biased, because I can identify with Arya much more than I can with Sansa, but before Yoren helped her, it seemed to me that she was at least attempting to fend for herself on the streets, by catching pigeons. Obviously she wasn't doing very well, but I can imagine catching pigeons is quite difficult. I can't imagine Sansa doing anything like that. I understand that she had help along the way, I'm not denying that, but Arya seems like she takes a much more active role in helping herself and her friends. I wouldn't say that Lommy, Hot Pie and Gendry were 'saving' her, I'd say they were working together. She realised that she needed them at the time, and she took charge, both with the 'Weasel Soup' and escaping Harrenhall. Sansa does not do things like this.

I have said that I'm not sure what Sansa could have done, there are options, of course, but based on her personality, she probably wouldn't have been able to pull them off. This is why I don't blame Sansa for betraying Ned, and I don't even blame her for not taking a more active role in escaping KL, it just annoys me that she always seems to have someone willing to save her. As you said, Arya earned Jaqens' trust and help, Sansa did nothing to earn LF's help, except being who she is. This is a theme that annoys me, and I understand it's a personal issue, but what can you do - the highborn lady gets the help of a very clever, rich lord who will help her. I know the danger he poses, and for the love of all that's holy, I hope I never have to read about him sexually abusing her or anything like that, but my point is that Sansa, the one who has always dreamed of being a queen, is courteous and innocent, is saved by someone who only wants to save her because of who her mother is, whereas Arya, the scruffy, tomboy-ish girl becomes even more scruffy and tomboy-ish, and has to physically fight her way out of some situations, and is continuously put in more and more danger. The Hound only takes her to the Twins so he can collect some reward money, but I think he saves her from the massacre because he genuinely likes the girl (not in that way).

As for Sansa attacking Joffrey, I fully understand why she didn't do it, but that doesn't make me like it any more. Better to die free than live a slave, I say.

Lady Kraken, on 15 April 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Just a quick comment. I would argue that in ACoK/ASoS Sansa did take an active role in her escape. Instead of waiting for someone to save her, she made the decision to go to the godswood to see who wrote her the note, even though this could have hurt her. She actively meets with Dontos, decides to trust him as Arya decides to trust Yoren, and they begin to work on her escape. When presented with another avenue of escape, the Tyrells, she actively decides to stop chirping out her courtesies and tells them the true nature of Joffrey. She then actively accepts the betrothal to Willas. Later, she actively accepts to wear the hairnet and take off from the wedding. I think it's a bit off to say she just waited for someone to save her; she participated in her escape. Littlefinger didn't carry her out of there.

Yes, she didn't plan any of this herself, but she wasn't completely passive either. She made decisions that could have potentially backfired instead of just accepting her confinement.

I accept that, you're absolutely right. I just feel that, compared to Arya and other people, she appeared to accept things more than I personally would have, which makes it difficult for me to identify with her and her actions. She did actively choose to trust that whoever sent her that note was not trying to trap her, but again, someone else orchestrated it. She did her part in her escape, I won't deny that, but she didn't actively put into action a plan of escape - she waited for someone else to set it off.

Ser Hippie, on 15 April 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

First, I was actually only being snarky and didn't intend to be rude. so I apologize if I caused offense - sarcasm doesn't translate well sometimes. That being said, this simply isn't true, Arya doesn't proactively save herself, others do it for her (although she does get to stab a couple of people, for whatever that's worth).

Very well, thank you. I don't think saying that 'others do it for her' is completely true, and I accept that she had help, but she does take a more active role in changing her situations. As I said above, she took charge at Harrenhall in both freeing the northmen and making her escape. Gendry, Lommy and Hot Pie (and Weasel, IIRC?) were not that enthusiastic, but they followed her lead.

Quote

Arya was saved because Syrio actively interposed himself between her and the guards, and because Yoren actively grabbed her, etc. Arya got a lot of lucky breaks and helpful people with her (rescued by the BwB group that happens to have Harwin in it, etc). Trying to claim there is a stark (pun definitely not intended) dichotomy between Sansa always relying on people and Arya never relying on them simply doesn't match the text.

Having Syrio there was a lucky break, I agree. I did not mean to imply that Arya never relies on people, I just meant that she had help, yes, but she also actively changed her situation as well, in examples above.

Quote

I'm not sure why you think Sansa would turn down a chance to escape because it wasn't a fairytale, since she came to see the very unromantic Ser Dontos as her hero.

It's my interpretation, of course, but again her escape, even with Ser Dontos, seems very fairytale-like. The whole Florian and Jonquil thing, the secret meetings in the godswood, the fool whisking the lady from the tower and the clutches of the evil prince.

Quote

Especially when saved by the likes of the former First Sword of Braavos, the Night's Watch, the Brotherhood without Banners, Sandor Clegane and the Faceless Men.

Again yes, lucky for Arya, but she earned the trust of these people. Sansa did nothing to earn the trust or respect of Littlefinger, though I concede that Ser Dontos did owe her his life. When Sansa spoke up for Ser Dontos, I warmed to her slightly, thinking that she was changing and becoming less passive, but it didn't seem to go very far, or should I say, not far enough for me to like her better.

Quote

You're misunderstanding or misreading my point completely. You claimed Sansa is a passive, almost willing, victim while Arya actively saves herself. The fact of the matter is that Arya is gifted a number of protecters and other figures that help her escape, she most definitely does not escape on her own. Be it Syrio Forel or Jaqen H'ghar or Yoren, there's always someone else looking after her.

Apologies if that's the case, I did write my last reply at 2am - I rarely make sense anyway, let alone when I'm tired.
As above, I still see Sansas' helpers and Aryas' helpers as completely different. I wouldn't say Sansa is a willing victim, but she definitely does not take as active a role as Arya does. Arya has earned the trust of her helpers, Sansa has not (except Ser Dontos, as above). Arya also orchestrates plans to escape and leads a 'pack', she stands up to the Hound (which I think made him like her, but that's just my interpretation). I just see Arya as a much more feisty, active character than Sansa.

Quote

Sided with Tyrion how, and why? She doesn't know him apart from the fact that he's a Lannister and it's not like Tyrion is actively trying to help her beyond being polite. He's not going out of his way to send her home or anything.

I know this, but did it not frustrate you when both Tyrion and Sansa were thinking similar things? I know it frustrated me. Again, I understand why she didn't, but it doesn't mean I like the fact. Tyrion wasn't very clear, I agree, which is another reason why those chapters annoyed me.

Quote

How's Sansa supposed to know that Ser Dontos is working for LF? Apparently not a single other person in King's Landing figured it out, even Varys from what we can tell. As for leaving with the Hound, is it really that surprising given the circumstances (mid-battle, he's drunk and possibly thinking of raping her)?

You asked for options and I gave you some. It doesn't mean I think any of them would have been the best. Speaking of the Hound, I wonder why, if she was so terrified of him, Sansa later 'remembers' that he kissed her? But that's off-topic. I don't think I suggested that she should have known that Ser Dontos was working for LF, but it doesn't take a genius to wonder how a fool would be able to save her, when no one else has been able to or even attempted to.

Quote

She did think about killing him and the Hound stopped her. In any case, how do you supposed Sansa would acquire and use a sword or poison, as she's trained at neither? It's sort of silly to suggest it would be reasonable to expect someone to act wholly out of character like that.

Again, options. She was raised at Winterfell, so she would have seen sword-fighting going on in the yard. It just doesn't ring true for me that she wouldn't even consider it. Maybe I'm being hard on her because she was raised so gently, but I personally would have attempted anything to get away from such a situation.

Quote

Sure, if it was remotely logical or plausible to escape on your own. Sansa recognized her hopes lay in others (Dontos, the Tyrells, being ransomed), not in planning to cut off Joffrey's head with a dinner knife and then sprout wings to fly to safety. If she was as passive as you claim, why would she even bother dealing with Ser Dontos and his plans?

Her dealing with Ser Dontos was an example of her taking charge of her own life, I agree, but again, she did not orchestrate the plans herself. I've said that I understand why, and if I keep repeating myself I think I might implode, but it doesn't make me like her or her decisions any more. Maybe it's not so much her I dislike, but more the lack of ability to take control and her completely different mindset to mine. I cannot help that I don't identify with her, that's just who I am and who she is.

Quote

Yet you and others judge Sansa but not Ned?

The fact of the matter is that Ned was willing to sacrifice his honor to save his daughters at one point (at his execution) yet was completely unwilling to bend his rules at any other time, when he could have saved the lives of his contingent in King's Landing and many others as well. Ned's so caught up in his obsession with doing the honorable thing that he fails to question the intelligence or 'rightness' of what he's doing.

And, again, Ned is the one who thinks Cersei poisoned Jon Arryn and that Tyrion tried to kill Bran yet he thinks he can scare Cersei away because that's what eases his conscience because he doesn't have to get his hands dirty. Why aren't people accusing Ned of betraying his house by putting his personal honor above the pragmatic demands of reality?

Because he clearly thought that nothing was more important than honour. I kind of agree with what you're saying, but it's a more complicated matter that I don't think I should get into here.

As for judging Sansa, I began my first post by saying that yes I believe she betrayed Ned, or at least went behind his back if 'betrayed' is too strong a word in this instance, but I don't blame her for doing so.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lummel, on 16 April 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

You think?

The lives of most people in Westeros are harsh but Sansa has been subject to particular cruelty, her father execute before her eyes when she thought he was going to be left alive, stripped humilated and beaten by the boy she thought she loved and hoped to marry, her hopes of a happy life with the tyrells dashed, married to tyrion who installs his mistress in their appartments, threatened with death by her aunt only to see her murdered...

By any standard Sansa has been subjected to a series of cruel disillusionments and hard treatment.

meh. most of the boys Yoren was taking to the wall had been through worse than that BEFORE they left kings landing. She has food. She sleeps inside. You still has all her parts.  She knows how to read and write.  Walk it off.

ETA: obviously, some sarcasm is intended.  But nothing she's been through relative to the other characters makes me feel the least bit sorry for her. I feel more sorry for Cersei than I do for Sansa.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 16 April 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[eyeheartsansa]

edit: nevermind.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 16 April 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Ser Hippie]

Fire&Blood, on 16 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

I don't think saying that 'others do it for her' is completely true, and I accept that she had help, but she does take a more active role in changing her situations. As I said above, she took charge at Harrenhall in both freeing the northmen and making her escape. Gendry, Lommy and Hot Pie (and Weasel, IIRC?) were not that enthusiastic, but they followed her lead.

But again, Arya can only be proactive because she's given help and the resources to do so. She couldn't free the Northmen on her own but, conveniently, she has Jaqen H'ghar around owing her a debt. She couldn't escape Meryn Trant and several guardsmen on her own but she has Syrio Forel (former First Sword of Braavos) to sacrifice himself for her escape, etc.

The point being that while Arya is more proactive than Sansa, it's really easy to be proactive when you also have trained super-assassins and skileld swordsmen and the Night's Watch assisting you. Sansa's on her own, apart from Dontos and, to a much more restrained extent, Sandor Clegane.

Quote

It's my interpretation, of course, but again her escape, even with Ser Dontos, seems very fairytale-like. The whole Florian and Jonquil thing, the secret meetings in the godswood, the fool whisking the lady from the tower and the clutches of the evil prince.

She thinks of it that way because she's traumatized and it gives her comfort, just like Arya evidently finds comfort in stabbing people

Quote

Again yes, lucky for Arya, but she earned the trust of these people. Sansa did nothing to earn the trust or respect of Littlefinger, though I concede that Ser Dontos did owe her his life. When Sansa spoke up for Ser Dontos, I warmed to her slightly, thinking that she was changing and becoming less passive, but it didn't seem to go very far, or should I say, not far enough for me to like her better.

She also is kind and gentle with Sandor, which is another reason they grow closer as the series progresses. Not "earning the trust" of LF is kind of a bizaare standard given that LF probably doesn't trust anyone and it's really unclear how she would go about doing so anyway, start nefarios plots among the staff in the castle kitchens?

Quote

Apologies if that's the case, I did write my last reply at 2am - I rarely make sense anyway, let alone when I'm tired.
As above, I still see Sansas' helpers and Aryas' helpers as completely different. I wouldn't say Sansa is a willing victim, but she definitely does not take as active a role as Arya does. Arya has earned the trust of her helpers, Sansa has not (except Ser Dontos, as above). Arya also orchestrates plans to escape and leads a 'pack', she stands up to the Hound (which I think made him like her, but that's just my interpretation). I just see Arya as a much more feisty, active character than Sansa.

This may come across as trite, but isn't this what the real underlying point to your argument? Arya is the aggressive fighter of the two so she's more interesting/palatable to you as a reader? I don't think Sansa would have done a lot of what Arya did but criticizing her as being a passive participant in her own life is rather unfair given the fact she has no means with which to control anything about it.

Quote

I know this, but did it not frustrate you when both Tyrion and Sansa were thinking similar things? I know it frustrated me. Again, I understand why she didn't, but it doesn't mean I like the fact. Tyrion wasn't very clear, I agree, which is another reason why those chapters annoyed me.

Tyrion doesn't ever make it clear that he hates his family or is doing anything other than being courteous, really. Leaving aside the extra baggage (he's a Lannister, her family is slaughtered (including Bran/Rickon to her knowledge, etc.), she has no reason to trust or rely on him nor has he given her any reason to. The fact he didn't force himself on her on their wedding night is a point in his favor, I guess, but it's not as if he leaned over to her and said "My family's a bunch of complete asshats, let's do our own thing".

Quote

You asked for options and I gave you some. It doesn't mean I think any of them would have been the best. Speaking of the Hound, I wonder why, if she was so terrified of him, Sansa later 'remembers' that he kissed her? But that's off-topic. I don't think I suggested that she should have known that Ser Dontos was working for LF, but it doesn't take a genius to wonder how a fool would be able to save her, when no one else has been able to or even attempted to.

She obviously knows Dontos is either insane or working for someone but how would she know it's LF? She's not Varys, how is she going to figure these plots out herself (note, she does figure out the Tyrells pretty quickly from their reaction to her after her wedding).

In addition, in that previous post, you stated she should have known "what people were up to" but then you criticize her for not taking the opportunities to escape that she could have, which is contradictory.

Quote

Again, options. She was raised at Winterfell, so she would have seen sword-fighting going on in the yard. It just doesn't ring true for me that she wouldn't even consider it. Maybe I'm being hard on her because she was raised so gently, but I personally would have attempted anything to get away from such a situation.

"I'd have attempted anything" is easy to say posting on a message board but a lot harder in practice. If you're an 11 year old girl trained to be a proper lady (and thus not super ninja-assassin Arya), what plausible way do you have to get away from the situation? Quite frankly, this comes across like victim blaming. Interestingly, this same sentiment was expressed in the video review of the latest HBO episode by the Otaku guy on youtube - Sansa should have done "something", just "do something", etc.

The fact of the matter is that her upbringing was not conducive to stealthy escapes from castles and enemy armies and it's wholly unrealistic to expect her to do anything of the sort.

Quote

Her dealing with Ser Dontos was an example of her taking charge of her own life, I agree, but again, she did not orchestrate the plans herself. I've said that I understand why, and if I keep repeating myself I think I might implode, but it doesn't make me like her or her decisions any more. Maybe it's not so much her I dislike, but more the lack of ability to take control and her completely different mindset to mine. I cannot help that I don't identify with her, that's just who I am and who she is.

So stop repeating yourself if necessary. The problem I have with your argument is that it relies on the faulty assumption that characters can just do "something" to escape whatever situation they are and Sansa's at fault because of that. You're, of course, free to dislike her regardless, but it's disingenuous to claim that she could/should have plotted her way out of KL on her own.

Or, put another way, it's one thing to say you don't relate to Sansa and that's why you don't like her. It's another to say you can't relate to or like her simply because she doesn't mastermind her own escape. The story is grounded in realism and that kind of expectation simply doesn't make sense given who Sansa is as a character and her actual circumstances in the book.

[ishmael]

I would say that yes, she did betray Ned.  Since he did not confide any desire or intent to harm the King or the Crown Prince to her, she had no cause to run to the royal family and tell them Ned's plans.  She does owe the king something if he is in danger from her father's plans, but returning all those in danger back to WF where they were safe is does not meet that standard.  She did not need to know nor suspect what might happen if she told of Ned's plans, because he was Eddard Stark, one of the more respected men in the Kingdom and her father.  He told her that they were returning north and that should have been all she needed to know.  Years of living with him should have been enough for her to know that he does not make decisions for spite or based on unreasonable reactions to situations.  

Sansa was not in love with Joffrey, she was in love with the story book romance that was offered her through him.  She didn't know him until he showed up in Winterfell and was confessing her love for him before they said much more than hello to each other.  It took her along time to realize that the stories of Knight's chivalry were just stories, that real Knights/princes did not act they did in her dreams, nor that the most true Knights were not as attractive as she had always been thought.  She did not owe Joffrey or anyone else in KL any loyalty, but she did owe her father more respect than she showed him.

[Dracarya]

Ser Hippie, on 16 April 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

But again, Arya can only be proactive because she's given help and the resources to do so. She couldn't free the Northmen on her own but, conveniently, she has Jaqen H'ghar around owing her a debt. She couldn't escape Meryn Trant and several guardsmen on her own but she has Syrio Forel (former First Sword of Braavos) to sacrifice himself for her escape, etc.

The point being that while Arya is more proactive than Sansa, it's really easy to be proactive when you also have trained super-assassins and skileld swordsmen and the Night's Watch assisting you. Sansa's on her own, apart from Dontos and, to a much more restrained extent, Sandor Clegane.

I don't think it's 'convenient' that she had Jaqen around, I genuinely think that Arya would have pulled it off anyway. I guess my point is that Arya takes charge, thinks of others, puts herself in danger to help others more than once (Sansa does this once, off the top of my head, for Ser Dontos), and actively participates in the plans. It's called 'Weasel Soup' for a reason.

Quote

She thinks of it that way because she's traumatized and it gives her comfort, just like Arya evidently finds comfort in stabbing people

Okay yes, I can see that it would give her comfort to think of it that way. But the whole issue I have with her character is that I find her unrealistic - everything does seem to happen in a way that she would be comfortable with. Having 'her fool' rescue her seemed fairly contrived, to me.

Quote

She also is kind and gentle with Sandor, which is another reason they grow closer as the series progresses. Not "earning the trust" of LF is kind of a bizaare standard given that LF probably doesn't trust anyone and it's really unclear how she would go about doing so anyway, start nefarios plots among the staff in the castle kitchens?

Sansa? Yes she is, but she never truly likes him, I think. The scene where she sings to him broke my heart, it was very touching, but nothing seems to permanently affect Sansa, which is another reason why she both puzzles and annoys me. She doesn't seem to learn from her mistakes or past preconceptions, like with the Hound. It turned out that he could actually be quite nice, but she was always terrified of him because of his scars. She seems very superficial, and while sometimes the ability to let everything wash over you and forget the bad things that have happened should be celebrated, it disappoints and irritates me with Sansa.

Quote

This may come across as trite, but isn't this what the real underlying point to your argument? Arya is the aggressive fighter of the two so she's more interesting/palatable to you as a reader? I don't think Sansa would have done a lot of what Arya did but criticizing her as being a passive participant in her own life is rather unfair given the fact she has no means with which to control anything about it.

Yes, this is absolutely true, and I have no problem denying it. Arya is definitely more interesting to me, and I can identify with her in a big way. This is probably due to my own past experiences, upbringing, and attitude. Sansa, I cannot identify with, at all. Her decisions baffle me, her attitude annoys me, her inability to think for herself, think about others and act do both of those things. I concede that it's probably unfair to criticise Sansa for not controlling her own life, but as a reader, my own choices would have been very different.

Quote

Tyrion doesn't ever make it clear that he hates his family or is doing anything other than being courteous, really. Leaving aside the extra baggage (he's a Lannister, her family is slaughtered (including Bran/Rickon to her knowledge, etc.), she has no reason to trust or rely on him nor has he given her any reason to. The fact he didn't force himself on her on their wedding night is a point in his favor, I guess, but it's not as if he leaned over to her and said "My family's a bunch of complete asshats, let's do our own thing".

As I said, which is why both Tyrions' and Sansas' chapters during that time frustrated me. I so wanted him to be honest and clear with her, and for them to join forces. But we cannot always have what we want.

Quote

She obviously knows Dontos is either insane or working for someone but how would she know it's LF? She's not Varys, how is she going to figure these plots out herself (note, she does figure out the Tyrells pretty quickly from their reaction to her after her wedding).

In addition, in that previous post, you stated she should have known "what people were up to" but then you criticize her for not taking the opportunities to escape that she could have, which is contradictory.

I didn't say she'd know it was LF, nowhere have I said that. I just said that she should have realised that Ser Dontos was working for someone else, someone more powerful, and she could have puzzled it out, but I didn't expect her to realise exactly who it was. I didn't realise it, until it was revealed.

I don't see how that is contradictory, I didn't say she 'should have known what people were up to', I said it 'doesn't take a genius to wonder how a fool would be able to save her'. Big difference. Yes I criticise her for not orchestrating her own plan for escape, but I don't believe I - or I didn't mean to - criticised her for not taking the opportunities that she could have. She did take the opportunities presented to her, but that's where my problem lies - they were presented to her, she didn't organise them herself.

Quote

"I'd have attempted anything" is easy to say posting on a message board but a lot harder in practice. If you're an 11 year old girl trained to be a proper lady (and thus not super ninja-assassin Arya), what plausible way do you have to get away from the situation? Quite frankly, this comes across like victim blaming. Interestingly, this same sentiment was expressed in the video review of the latest HBO episode by the Otaku guy on youtube - Sansa should have done "something", just "do something", etc.

The fact of the matter is that her upbringing was not conducive to stealthy escapes from castles and enemy armies and it's wholly unrealistic to expect her to do anything of the sort.

I agree that it's easy to say and harder to do, but based on my own personality, experiences and upbringing, and without going into personal details, I think I can safely say that I would have tried my utmost to escape. I'm not a super ninja-assassin like Arya, more's the pity, but I believe you can do anything if you truly have to, and if I had to pick up a sword and kill Joffrey to escape, even if it meant my death, I believe I would have done it.

'Victim-blaming' seems a little harsh. I'm not blaming her for what happened to her, I'm criticising her for not taking more steps to get the hell out of there. Isn't "just do something! Anything!" a natural reaction to a situation like this? You want her to get away, get to safety, whether you like her character or not. I wouldn't be too harsh on people who react that way - it's a natural reaction to seeing a character being abused.

Quote

So stop repeating yourself if necessary. The problem I have with your argument is that it relies on the faulty assumption that characters can just do "something" to escape whatever situation they are and Sansa's at fault because of that. You're, of course, free to dislike her regardless, but it's disingenuous to claim that she could/should have plotted her way out of KL on her own.

Or, put another way, it's one thing to say you don't relate to Sansa and that's why you don't like her. It's another to say you can't relate to or like her simply because she doesn't mastermind her own escape. The story is grounded in realism and that kind of expectation simply doesn't make sense given who Sansa is as a character and her actual circumstances in the book.

I wouldn't call my opinion on Sansa 'expectations', but more that I don't believe in sitting back and taking shit like that. I've said that I understand, based on her upbringing and character, why she didn't do a lot to help herself, but again, it doesn't mean I like that decision.

[Raksha the Demon]

Fire&Blood, on 16 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

The word that I was looking for to describe Sansa is passive, so thank you. I only said that it is frustrating and unbelievable, for me, that someone would sit by and take all of that from Joffrey, and not actively seek a way to get away from it. I understand that Arya has always been very different to Sansa, and I get that Yoren took control and took Arya away from Kings Landing, but it just always seems that Arya is more willing to help herself escape bad situations, rather than just try to make them more endurable for herself.

It may be that I'm biased, because I can identify with Arya much more than I can with Sansa, but before Yoren helped her, it seemed to me that she was at least attempting to fend for herself on the streets, by catching pigeons. Obviously she wasn't doing very well, but I can imagine catching pigeons is quite difficult. I can't imagine Sansa doing anything like that. I understand that she had help along the way, I'm not denying that, but Arya seems like she takes a much more active role in helping herself and her friends. I wouldn't say that Lommy, Hot Pie and Gendry were 'saving' her, I'd say they were working together. She realised that she needed them at the time, and she took charge, both with the 'Weasel Soup' and escaping Harrenhall. Sansa does not do things like this.

I have said that I'm not sure what Sansa could have done, there are options, of course, but based on her personality, she probably wouldn't have been able to pull them off. This is why I don't blame Sansa for betraying Ned, and I don't even blame her for not taking a more active role in escaping KL, it just annoys me that she always seems to have someone willing to save her. As you said, Arya earned Jaqens' trust and help, Sansa did nothing to earn LF's help, except being who she is. This is a theme that annoys me, and I understand it's a personal issue, but what can you do - the highborn lady gets the help of a very clever, rich lord who will help her. I know the danger he poses, and for the love of all that's holy, I hope I never have to read about him sexually abusing her or anything like that, but my point is that Sansa, the one who has always dreamed of being a queen, is courteous and innocent, is saved by someone who only wants to save her because of who her mother is, whereas Arya, the scruffy, tomboy-ish girl becomes even more scruffy and tomboy-ish, and has to physically fight her way out of some situations, and is continuously put in more and more danger. The Hound only takes her to the Twins so he can collect some reward money, but I think he saves her from the massacre because he genuinely likes the girl (not in that way).

As for Sansa attacking Joffrey, I fully understand why she didn't do it, but that doesn't make me like it any more. Better to die free than live a slave, I say.



I accept that, you're absolutely right. I just feel that, compared to Arya and other people, she appeared to accept things more than I personally would have, which makes it difficult for me to identify with her and her actions. She did actively choose to trust that whoever sent her that note was not trying to trap her, but again, someone else orchestrated it. She did her part in her escape, I won't deny that, but she didn't actively put into action a plan of escape - she waited for someone else to set it off.



Very well, thank you. I don't think saying that 'others do it for her' is completely true, and I accept that she had help, but she does take a more active role in changing her situations. As I said above, she took charge at Harrenhall in both freeing the northmen and making her escape. Gendry, Lommy and Hot Pie (and Weasel, IIRC?) were not that enthusiastic, but they followed her lead.



Having Syrio there was a lucky break, I agree. I did not mean to imply that Arya never relies on people, I just meant that she had help, yes, but she also actively changed her situation as well, in examples above.



It's my interpretation, of course, but again her escape, even with Ser Dontos, seems very fairytale-like. The whole Florian and Jonquil thing, the secret meetings in the godswood, the fool whisking the lady from the tower and the clutches of the evil prince.



Again yes, lucky for Arya, but she earned the trust of these people. Sansa did nothing to earn the trust or respect of Littlefinger, though I concede that Ser Dontos did owe her his life. When Sansa spoke up for Ser Dontos, I warmed to her slightly, thinking that she was changing and becoming less passive, but it didn't seem to go very far, or should I say, not far enough for me to like her better.



Apologies if that's the case, I did write my last reply at 2am - I rarely make sense anyway, let alone when I'm tired.
As above, I still see Sansas' helpers and Aryas' helpers as completely different. I wouldn't say Sansa is a willing victim, but she definitely does not take as active a role as Arya does. Arya has earned the trust of her helpers, Sansa has not (except Ser Dontos, as above). Arya also orchestrates plans to escape and leads a 'pack', she stands up to the Hound (which I think made him like her, but that's just my interpretation). I just see Arya as a much more feisty, active character than Sansa.



I know this, but did it not frustrate you when both Tyrion and Sansa were thinking similar things? I know it frustrated me. Again, I understand why she didn't, but it doesn't mean I like the fact. Tyrion wasn't very clear, I agree, which is another reason why those chapters annoyed me.



You asked for options and I gave you some. It doesn't mean I think any of them would have been the best. Speaking of the Hound, I wonder why, if she was so terrified of him, Sansa later 'remembers' that he kissed her? But that's off-topic. I don't think I suggested that she should have known that Ser Dontos was working for LF, but it doesn't take a genius to wonder how a fool would be able to save her, when no one else has been able to or even attempted to.



Again, options. She was raised at Winterfell, so she would have seen sword-fighting going on in the yard. It just doesn't ring true for me that she wouldn't even consider it. Maybe I'm being hard on her because she was raised so gently, but I personally would have attempted anything to get away from such a situation.



Her dealing with Ser Dontos was an example of her taking charge of her own life, I agree, but again, she did not orchestrate the plans herself. I've said that I understand why, and if I keep repeating myself I think I might implode, but it doesn't make me like her or her decisions any more. Maybe it's not so much her I dislike, but more the lack of ability to take control and her completely different mindset to mine. I cannot help that I don't identify with her, that's just who I am and who she is.



Because he clearly thought that nothing was more important than honour. I kind of agree with what you're saying, but it's a more complicated matter that I don't think I should get into here.

As for judging Sansa, I began my first post by saying that yes I believe she betrayed Ned, or at least went behind his back if 'betrayed' is too strong a word in this instance, but I don't blame her for doing so.

I have always identified more with Sansa than with Arya (except that I detested sewing and fashion as a child and still do).  I was probably somewhere between Sansa and Arya in terms of passivity/impulsiveness; but very much someone who would listen to authority.  When I was eleven, I made a mistake by trusting someone in authority, at a summer camp, and doing something foolish to prove that the person was right - and then was betrayed by that person in that she lied about what she had said and what I had done.  I was not an idiot; I was a child who trusted a counselor; I had been told to trust counselors, that they were there to help and guide me.  

I don't think I would have sneaked around behind my father's back to flout a direct order, but I still don't think Sansa's running to Cersei to ask her to keep her in King's Landing so she can marry Joffrey was a direct betrayal of Ned, though it was a huge mistake.  Sansa does seem to have become very wary of who to trust in late ASOS and AFFC; she is afraid to trust Tyrion, and later (I think) Bronze Yohn in AFFC.  

I don't think it's quite fair to blame a person for accepting the only help that is offered her in a terrible situation, i.e. Dontos' plan to eventually escape, because it resembles a fairy tale.  If I'd been in Sansa's shoes as an abused hostage held by the people who killed my father, and an older semi-drunk man whose life I'd saved swooped in and said he wanted to be Sir Lancelot and save me, I'd say YAY; and when do we leave?  (especially if he implied that he had help, since by himself Dontos wasn't always so steady on his feet)  Sansa did not have anyone else.  

As for Sansa trying to escape on her own, to run away, to do something, she was always escorted by guards.  If she had run (as she tried to run when told she was to be married to Tyrion), she would have been very quickly stopped.  Her maids reported to Cersei.  The only place she was allowed to be alone in was the Godswood.  I suppose, during the excitement of the Battle of the Blackwater, Sansa might have made a run for it, with or without Sandor (the drunk, violent man who held a knife to her throat); but I think that Sansa was smart enough to realize that the situation outside Maegor's Keep was  violent and volatile and she could have been raped or killed (or both) - as she had been during the riot.  

I think it took a lot of courage and self-control on Sansa's part to stay put in the palace, smile at the people who killed her father and who she hated and feared, pretend to be the obedient captive, alone and friendless, and wait for an opportunity to escape or make friends who would help her.  

In the end, both Sansa and Arya have not fared particularly well on their own, in my opinion.  The best that you could say is that they are both alive and physically unscarred and whole (unlike Jeyne Poole, who bears the scars of being whipped, and who will probably lose part of her nose to frostbite).  They have both been helped, both saved the lives of people they barely knew and who later helped them; have seen terrible things, been threatened with danger and violence, and are currently under the sinister influence of morally dubious guardians - Arya is being taught to be a hired murderer, Sansa is being seduced by Littlefinger and made an accomplice to at least one of his crimes (framing Marillion for Lysa's murder) and possibly being turned into his accomplice in the future murder of a child.  

I think GRRM is using Sansa to turn the trope of the damsel-in-distress on its head, to show the dangers of being a young and attractive girl who is a friendless political hostage and the holes in the ideal of Chivalry.  (in theory, knights are supposed to protect helpless damsels, not beat them up; it's no accident that the one knight who buys into the mythic aspect of Chivalry is a lurching, slobbering drunk who is also being paid to help Sansa, though I also believe that Dontos genuinely wanted to help her, to regain his self-respect, he still believed in the ideal of Chivalry and wanted some measure of it back, poor guy)


If I were given the choice of living as a slave or dying free, I might well have chosen Sansa's path, since the conditions of her slavery were not physically horrible.  I might have thought that it was better to live in hope then to choose death.  This is a very subjective matter; but I don't see how you can condemn either choice.  It's not as if Sansa became more evil by joining the Lannisters, or condoned Joffrey's cruelty.  She did manage to save a life that Joffrey would have cruelly ended for the crime of  public drunkenness and nudity - that of Ser Dontos.  Sansa could have become utterly disillusioned with her previous ideals and decided, since honor was useless, to become a self-serving user and thrown in with her captors, in which case she would have welcomed the marriage to the king's uncle and welcomed Tyrion with open arms to her bed.  But she did not.  She physically fought the people who were bringing her to that marriage, and she made a gesture of public resistance in refusing to kneel to accept the cloak of Tyrion Lannister's protection.  

Arya's course of action  makes sense for her character.  I don't think it is better, or worse, than Sansa's physical acceptance of her captivity and her waiting for either opportunity, fortune, or friends, to free her.  They are very different people.  I do think that Sansa's arc is a bit more realistic; but that doesn't mean I don't care about Arya as a character, or want to know what happens to her.

[Ser Hippie]

Fire&Blood, on 16 April 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

I don't think it's 'convenient' that she had Jaqen around, I genuinely think that Arya would have pulled it off anyway.

You think an unarmed Arya would have taken out a room of guards on her own?

Quote

I guess my point is that Arya takes charge, thinks of others, puts herself in danger to help others more than once (Sansa does this once, off the top of my head, for Ser Dontos), and actively participates in the plans. It's called 'Weasel Soup' for a reason.

Again, you keep ignoring circumstances and context to make this claim. How is Sansa going to "actively participate" in LF's plot that she isn't even aware of? And, again, why is Arya getting all the credit for plans only made possible through the contributions of others - she doesn't even make it to Harrenhal without that; yes, she's more active than Sansa but at least some of that is because she actually has the opportunity to be so.

Quote

Okay yes, I can see that it would give her comfort to think of it that way. But the whole issue I have with her character is that I find her unrealistic - everything does seem to happen in a way that she would be comfortable with. Having 'her fool' rescue her seemed fairly contrived, to me.

Well, given the situation, someone had to be LF's agent in KL and it makes a lot of sense to use Dontos since he owes Sansa (and therefore is likely to be at least somewhat loyal for a period of time) and is someone Sansa is more likely to trust.

Quote

Sansa? Yes she is, but she never truly likes him, I think. The scene where she sings to him broke my heart, it was very touching, but nothing seems to permanently affect Sansa, which is another reason why she both puzzles and annoys me. She doesn't seem to learn from her mistakes or past preconceptions, like with the Hound. It turned out that he could actually be quite nice, but she was always terrified of him because of his scars. She seems very superficial, and while sometimes the ability to let everything wash over you and forget the bad things that have happened should be celebrated, it disappoints and irritates me with Sansa.

I think most reasonably people would be terrified of a giant hulking man known to be a cold-blooded killer who isn't above killing children (even if she didn't see it, surely Sansa knows about Mycah if not the others), especially when he shows up mid-battle and is drunk and seemingly about to kill them. As for being superficial about Sandor, that....isn't at all what happened in the books. She certainly sees him as a protector of sorts and feels sad for him; note, for example, that she curls up under his cloak for comfort during the Battle of the Blackwater and then keeps it.

Quote

Yes, this is absolutely true, and I have no problem denying it. Arya is definitely more interesting to me, and I can identify with her in a big way. This is probably due to my own past experiences, upbringing, and attitude. Sansa, I cannot identify with, at all. Her decisions baffle me, her attitude annoys me, her inability to think for herself, think about others and act do both of those things. I concede that it's probably unfair to criticise Sansa for not controlling her own life, but as a reader, my own choices would have been very different.

See, this isn't consistent with the text. Sansa routinely thinks about other people (Dontos, Sandor, the woman with the dead baby prior to the riots, praying in the sept before the Blackwater, taking care of the women during the battle, taking care of Sweetrobin despite the fact he's unpleasant to be around, etc.). Even if you consider it a result of her 'armor', she's polite and kind to people like Lancel and Kevan as well as the other nobles and also has other moments of caring (wanting to see Jon in AFFC, her pity for Mya Stone's situation with Mychel Redfort, etc.).

I still vehemently disagree with the last part of that sentence since it's pretty clear Sansa can't realistically do anything, even if it's frustrating to read.

Quote

I didn't say she'd know it was LF, nowhere have I said that. I just said that she should have realised that Ser Dontos was working for someone else, someone more powerful, and she could have puzzled it out, but I didn't expect her to realise exactly who it was. I didn't realise it, until it was revealed.

I don't see how that is contradictory, I didn't say she 'should have known what people were up to', I said it 'doesn't take a genius to wonder how a fool would be able to save her'. Big difference. Yes I criticise her for not orchestrating her own plan for escape, but I don't believe I - or I didn't mean to - criticised her for not taking the opportunities that she could have. She did take the opportunities presented to her, but that's where my problem lies - they were presented to her, she didn't organise them herself.

She didn't take all of one opportunity to escape (the Hound) which was of questionable usefulness since there's no way to know where the Hound is going, if things would be better for her or if she might end up in another bad situation. She pretty clearly understands Dontos isn't acting alone and also is willing to go along with the Tyrells.

Your criticism is still baffling though. [u]How is Sansa supposed to organize her own escape with no resources or friends other than Dontos, who we also know is not going to actually help her outside of LF's plans?[/i] The argument you are making is like criticizing Ilyn Payne for not being a good opera singer.

Quote

I agree that it's easy to say and harder to do, but based on my own personality, experiences and upbringing, and without going into personal details, I think I can safely say that I would have tried my utmost to escape. I'm not a super ninja-assassin like Arya, more's the pity, but I believe you can do anything if you truly have to, and if I had to pick up a sword and kill Joffrey to escape, even if it meant my death, I believe I would have done it.

Are you an 11 year old girl trained to be a good noblewoman/wife? Do you honestly think it would have been remotely in character (let alone plausible) for Sansa to do this?

Quote

'Victim-blaming' seems a little harsh. I'm not blaming her for what happened to her, I'm criticising her for not taking more steps to get the hell out of there. Isn't "just do something! Anything!" a natural reaction to a situation like this? You want her to get away, get to safety, whether you like her character or not. I wouldn't be too harsh on people who react that way - it's a natural reaction to seeing a character being abused.

Victim blaming is pretty implicit in "Sansa did nothing to try to get away"....so it's her fault she's still in King's Landing until after Joffrey's Wedding and also her fault she's stuck with LF now, right? I don't understand how you can charge her with the responsibility of plotting and executing her own escape and then claim you're not also simultaneously saddling her with the blame for the consequences for not doing so.

Sure, it's frustrating that Sansa doesn't get out of KL in better shape than with LF as a pseudo-Cat replacement/pawn but you still haven't put forth any kind of plausible scenario for her other than getting herself killed trying to kill Joffrey.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 16 April 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[Independent George]

Honestly, I only skimmed through this thread. Blaming an 11-year old girl for acting like an 11-year old is something that I will never understand, and no argument in the world will ever convince me otherwise.

I do blame Sansa for not telling the truth about what happened on the Trident, because telling the truth is something she's old enough to understand. But betraying Ned? Sweet merciful crap, I simply do not comprehend any of the arguments for that.

Allow me to close by repeating something I've already stated. Forgive me for both the shouting and the repetition, but...

SANSA IS ELEVEN YEARS OLD AT THE END OF A GAME OF THRONES.

Edited by Independent George, 16 April 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

LordofWinter, on 16 April 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

as you are referring to me, i'll respond. firstly, as i've said before i wasn't saying that sansa should have learned how to fight with a sword, or better i wasn't simply saying that. the point i was making was that sansa was a mentally weak character because all she ever cared to know about were the simpler fairer things in life. which would make sense if she lived in the eyrie, but unfortunately she lived in winterfell. i was not saying she needed to become brienne, but merely that it would benefit her to have some of brienne's knowledge because it would help her to survive at times. the reason i used the sandsnakes, brienne or the bear women was because it has been said repeatedly that knowledge in the art of war would not be necessary for a person in sansa's position seeing as how she lives in westeros. but these other women all live in the same world that sansa lived in, the difference between them and her was that they felt the need to be prepared to protect themselves in the event that there was nobody else(a male soldier lets say) to do so for them. was this completely necessary for all of these women, probably not. but then again, why not? when reading this series i've never once had the feeling that this would be the kind of world where women are safe and free of danger. in fact quite the opposite, the fact that they happen to be of the fairer sex means that should danger arise a female would be in the most amount of peril as she is untrained and unprepared for this. which is why i found examples of women from COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE MAP who all seemed to find a motive/excuse/need to learn how to protect themselves.
now again, my point wasn't just as simple as 'she should know how to fight'. in fact my point was that training in the arts of war teaches you many different important things about yourself, other people, life and survival. things that would have helped her to develop a stronger character, in which case she may not have been so easily trusting of people or also might be better at recognizing when someone is essentially 'bad'.
and to say that "it is not necessary to learn how to fight and it will never be." is beyond misguided and extremely naive. to give you an example: why is sansa held captive so easily and why is arya continually escaping captivity every time she gets her chance? it's like ygrette told jon snow "you can own a woman or you can own a knife, but you can't own both" this statement is entirely true when you think of arya, but when you think of sansa one tends to believe that even when presented with the best possible chance she would never take it, because she would be too frightened. which isn't necessarily a bad thing when thinking about an 11yr old who lives in our world, but in a world like ASOIAF to ever believe that you are completely safe because you're a female is just dumb.

Yes of course she would have benefited from learning the ways of war. She would have never been taught that though, this is a pragmatic society, women thus far have generally never waged war, sure theres Nymeria and some Targaryens but the rest of the women have never had to fight. They have their fathers and brothers for that and later on their husbands and sons. I don't think nobody expected Sansa to be kidnapped or anything like that. Arya didn't start training so she could defend herself and all that she did it so she could go in adventures, she wants the life of a boy not a girl. There is almost no female characters that can wage war, that doesn't mean they're stupid or incompetent. They can leave that to other people, like Dany and her generals and Cersei with Jaime. It is unnecessary. I stand by this "it is not necessary to learn how to fight and it will never be". Petyr doesn't know how to fight, Doran doesn't know how to fight, Tyrion can hardly fight, Dany cannot fight, same with Varys and Illyrio, they're all alive and well. Now look at Ned and Robert, they were great fighters and they're dead, Sansa doesn't need to know how to fight she needs to know how to think. Furthermore, what's the use of the knife ? Oh okay she killed Joffrey well she's dead know, she killed TYrion, well she will have to answer for that too. I mean that's ridiculous, it was better to act like everything was fine and scheme behind their backs like she did with Olenna and Dontos. Sure she got played but she stayed alive, and she's safer than a lot of other characters. Swords can help but they're useless unless you are cunning.

Edited by The Imp With A Pimp Limp, 16 April 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[Completely Headless Ned]

I think it's a betrayal on the most basic of levels. She had no clue what was going to happen or why her dad wanted to send her away. I don't even know how much her telling cersei actually even changed things.

[The Mother of The Others]

^  I believe the words of Completely Headless Ned should be considered expert testimony on this subject.  Who's more qualified to speak on the topic of whether Ned was betrayed than a headless ned?    As a juror on this case, I'd give extra weight to anything a headless ned said on the stand.

Sansa informed on him to the queen, and thereafter things didn't go well for Ned.   <-- SPOILERS
The betrayal might not have directly caused his death, but it bolstered the lannisters' chances of coming out as the winner because sansa basically tipped ned's hand to the enemy and let them know his disposition & tendencies, which made them better aware of how to play him.  
Which ended in his death.    <----- SPOILER ALERT!
So it can be described as a betrayal of the north, even though it wasn't consciously done for that reason.
But come on!   It was SORT OF consciously done by Sansa, I mean she's not an infant.  She knew she was acting against his interests at a time when he was already precariously balanced in a power struggle.  But she turned a blind eye to this because her own spoiled-brattish-ness overrided any concern for Ned's position.  She was too worried over losing her royal perks.  Twas a tantrum that guided her into Cercei's camp.  And just the fact that she ran to the queen so trustingly, when she had no trust left for her father.  That meant her family was now the lions, which makes her a very very very good wife but not a loyal family member to her own.  She didn't give her father a chance to give her away because she's already torn herself away.

[LordofWinter]

The Imp With A Pimp Limp, on 16 April 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Yes of course she would have benefited from learning the ways of war. She would have never been taught that though, this is a pragmatic society, women thus far have generally never waged war, sure theres Nymeria and some Targaryens but the rest of the women have never had to fight. They have their fathers and brothers for that and later on their husbands and sons. I don't think nobody expected Sansa to be kidnapped or anything like that. Arya didn't start training so she could defend herself and all that she did it so she could go in adventures, she wants the life of a boy not a girl. There is almost no female characters that can wage war, that doesn't mean they're stupid or incompetent. They can leave that to other people, like Dany and her generals and Cersei with Jaime. It is unnecessary. I stand by this "it is not necessary to learn how to fight and it will never be". Petyr doesn't know how to fight, Doran doesn't know how to fight, Tyrion can hardly fight, Dany cannot fight, same with Varys and Illyrio, they're all alive and well. Now look at Ned and Robert, they were great fighters and they're dead, Sansa doesn't need to know how to fight she needs to know how to think. Furthermore, what's the use of the knife ? Oh okay she killed Joffrey well she's dead know, she killed TYrion, well she will have to answer for that too. I mean that's ridiculous, it was better to act like everything was fine and scheme behind their backs like she did with Olenna and Dontos. Sure she got played but she stayed alive, and she's safer than a lot of other characters. Swords can help but they're useless unless you are cunning.

please go back and read the second paragraph of my comment.