385 replies to this topic

[A wilding]

birdsong66, on 19 April 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

What?  He was thrown in the black cells for acts of treason.  He was on the block for acts of treason.  Confessing to treason becomes, what, incidental to the whole?  IMO, the public confession to acts of treason is exactly what justified to all present a public beheading, be it the truth or not, as it was designed to by LF.

Quite, he was thrown in the Black Cells effectively because the Lannister regime decided he was guilty of treason, but not because he confessed to treason. He does not need to confess to be considered guilty, or even be executed, or even to be executed in public. So to that extent his confession is incidental.

I do agree though that the confession provided a way for Littlefinger to get Ned killed. The relevant part of my last post was: "Ned's confession may have provided a way for (IMO) Littlefinger to orchestrate his death, but I suspect Littlefinger would have found some other way if necessary. The confession did not exactly cause his death."

[Kate Poem]

Yes, she did betray him. Joffrey was more important than all world for her... than her father's will, earlier than her own sister...
She learnt nothing. Lady's death should "tell" her "Cersei did'nt deserve for trust".

[James Arryn]

A wilding, on 19 April 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Quite, he was thrown in the Black Cells effectively because the Lannister regime decided he was guilty of treason, but not because he confessed to treason. He does not need to confess to be considered guilty, or even be executed, or even to be executed in public. So to that extent his confession is incidental.

I do agree though that the confession provided a way for Littlefinger to get Ned killed. The relevant part of my last post was: "Ned's confession may have provided a way for (IMO) Littlefinger to orchestrate his death, but I suspect Littlefinger would have found some other way if necessary. The confession did not exactly cause his death."

Again, though, more than that, the possession of Sansa allowed them to deal more harshly with Ned.

If Sansa doesn't betray Ned, at the very least Ned and Arya are away, in which case the Lannisters pretty much have to either deal Ned for Jaime, or keep Ned safe to keep Jaime safe.

Also though, this is consequences of the betrayal.

[WinterWarrior]

I think she did betray him, even though she did not intend to do that. Others like the Lannisters and the few they have told consider it a betrayal.

I think at some point if she was a real person she would come to the conclusion that she had betrayed her father and have to live with the guilt of that. But she is a fictional character and the books will end before she is old enough to look back on actions she took in her younger years......and see them in a new light....and regret a few......

Edited by WinterWarrior, 19 April 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[A wilding]

LordofWinter, on 19 April 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

just a random question regarding this subject because i think it actually makes a difference; how many people who have commented on this subject actually have children of their own? because without being able to actually put yourself in the shoes of a father who's been betrayed by their oldest daughter i don't think you can fully grasp why such a thing would be so terrible. sure it's easy to sit on the sidelines and claim that it is justifiable for a little girl to do what sansa did, but actually being a parent in real life you would find it hard to imagine the child you spend 11 years raising turning to someone they barely knew over yourself, especially a person whom has already inflicted mental damage -Lady- to that same child. which is why all of the "it's not her fault, she's just a little girl" and the "Ned should have told her more information" seems so outlandish to me. I can't for a second imagine that any military general explains themselves to their children anymore than they think they should have to, which rarely strays farther than "do as you're told". your average non military parent is very similar as well.

I should not really be replying to this one as I am not a parent, only an uncle, but my second hand experience is that a parent would forgive their 11 year old child for just about any single action.

A couple of other points. Whether or not Cersei was someone Sansa barely knew, she was an adult that Ned had sanctioned, to at least some extent, by making her Sansa's mother-in-law elect. He appears never to have qualified this sanction.

And this is in sharp contrast to Arya. Ned spends some time with Arya, gets to understand her issues, and arranges for Syrio to tutor her - all round, a piece of excellent parenting. Sansa however was left alone to "weep her eyes dry" without any guidance.

[Queen Cersei I]

James Arryn, on 15 April 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

  But my contention re: her betrayal stands as written in the other thread.

Well, since you say so, than i hope you won't mind if I utilize a few quotes of yours from the previous thread that seem to echo some pretty commonly held opinions about Sansa.

In the previous thread, I noted that Sansa had no idea that her actions would have resulted in any real lasting trouble for Ned, and that she never would have told on him if she'd anticipated he might get into any real trouble. You responded:

James Arryn, on 15 April 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:


I think you are underestimating her.




And I think you're overestimating her bad qualities and the very limited information she was working off of. I think your generalized contempt for this character gives you a very narrow view of her, and an unfair one.





James Arryn, on 15 April 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:


Oh, it's you.

Yeah. I'm gross, childish, ridiculous, thoughtless, etc. How's about this; we can from now on assume I am all this and more. It'll save you typing time and me confusion until I check the handle. No idea why I spark so many personal extremes from you, but let's call it understood. Cool?



Well, color me confused. Because I don’t recall calling you “gross, childish, ridiculous, thoughtless,” or anything else. I recall saying the following:

You said:
“He 'underestimated' the lengths to which his daughter would go to try and ensure her fantasy."
And I replied:

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This is ridiculous and more than a little gross on your part. Sansa did not go to such lengths to "ensure her fantasy." She was never fully aware of what the repercussions were going to be; she was simply unaware of how perilous the situation was.

I never called you "gross, childish, ridiculous, thoughtless," or anything else.



I did refer to a few of your opinions basically stating that Sansa was guilty of the deepest sort of betrayal and was fully morally responsible for what happened to Ned as rather gross. Perhaps this was unfair phrasing on my part, however, it was generally a reaction to characterizations of Sansa by those criticizing her for her “betrayal” of Ned as shallow, selfish, and without honor—you’ve noted honor is worth nothing if it does not have a price; I’d argue that one who does not know the price of what she is doing should not be held to be without honor or inordinately selfish, since she was unaware of the costs or true consequences.

For instance:

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And I doubt anyone would blame him for not expecting his own daughter to put her fascination with an idea of people she's just met over the loyalty to family she's been taught since birth

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He 'felt' he was in control so far as his family was concerned.
He was right, except for Sansa.
He 'underestimated' the lengths to which his daughter would go to try and ensure her fantasy.

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By Westeros standards, she's basically an adult. She betrayed her family for a dreamy prince.

Perhaps I could be more charitable here, but I find both these opinions and the way in which they are expressed to be less than sensible. It is totally fine to argue with opinions here, not insult individuals. I have never done the latter to you; stating that I called you any of the things you list is ridiculous and baffling to me.

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Signficantly, she considered going to King Robert initially. If she had gone to him, can you imagine how very different the situation would have turned out?






James Arryn, on 15 April 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:


 Somewhat, but when that (still not great) option wasn't available, she didn't choose another with any outcome she'd considered/would be reasonable other than getting what she wants. Cost? Who knows, Joffrey's so handsome.





Well, thank you very much for the illustration here.

Yes, this is what I mean when I call your sentiments towards this character "gross."

Here you betray an attitude towards Sansa that goes far beyond a sensible condemnation of her for her actions. The attitude you display towards Sansa here goes far beyond one simply condemning her for some wrongdoings. You seem to feel a deep antagonism for this character as well as a great deal of contempt. It seems to me that these attitudes make you less than reasonable in evaluating her true amount of moral culpability for her actions.

This is what I mean by "gross." It's not just that you dislike or disaprove of her; your attitude towards her is one of contempt, mockery, and condemnation (a good portion of it unfair.) And the valid points you do make are largely disguised by your condescension and antagonism.





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Wow, that's a point.

Question: Did Theon think everyone in WInterfell would be put to the sword? If he didn't, did he not betray?





Your comparing Sansa's actions to Theon's multiple murder of innocent people (including children) actually illustrates--like your mention of her murdering her family while singing the rains of castamere (“If she'd slain them all in their beds while singing rains of Castamere, down to Ned because but for him she's not there?”)—a rather problematic understanding of the situation, colored (it seems) deeply by your obvious distaste for Sansa.



Edited by Queen Cersei I, 02 May 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Kittyhat]

The King in the South, on 15 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

The concept of betrayal by its very nature implies a sort of knowledge in which one one (the betrayer) understands to harm to the betrayee. I do not believe Sansa was in anyway in tune with, or even close to fully aware of this knowledge, so I can not call her action a betrayal.

I think far too many people on here seriously overestimate the capacity of what an 11 year old can do and see, especially one like Sansa. Just because Arya is in tune with something, does not mean that Sansa is or has to be.

Also, anyone saying Sansa needs to be "punished" for this is frankly disturbing. It's not like she has not suffered enough anyways.

/thread

[houseHB]

She was a young dumb girl blinded by love sort of like Lyanna with Reaghar, look what that did it cost her her father and brother.

[Fantôme]

houseHB, on 02 May 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

She was a young dumb girl blinded by love sort of like Lyanna with Reaghar, look what that did it cost her her father and brother.

That's assuming all the hypothesis about lyanna are GRRM confirmed facts and not just hypothesis. (I'm not saying they're not likely just that they're still just theory until Martin says it clearly).

Anyway my main problem with Sansa running to Cersei is precisely that she ran to Cersei. The woman wantonly ordered her direwolf to death and wanted her little sister punished for something sansa knows arya was innocent off , and yet does she hold it against her? Nope she blames Arya and still think cersei is kind and likes her. That was really stupid and hypocritical, even for a girl this age. Thankfully she's grown out of this naivety. But imo the idiocy of the betrayal beats the unintentional aspect of it. As for the " she should be loyal to the king first" argument, well she didn't give a damn about that,did she? She just didn't want to lose what she had.

[LordofWinter]

A wilding, on 19 April 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

I should not really be replying to this one as I am not a parent, only an uncle, but my second hand experience is that a parent would forgive their 11 year old child for just about any single action.

again as much as people say that she wasn't aware of the outcome, the events still took place regardless and she took part in that. any parent who lost their significant other would be understanding of their child yes, but would still feel betrayed if not only for themselves than on behalf of the slain parent. i've never said what she did was unforgivable, just that it takes being able to put yourself in the shoes of Ned/Cat/robb/rickon/bran/arya/jon to be able to really feel how deep that kind of betray can hit.

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A couple of other points. Whether or not Cersei was someone Sansa barely knew, she was an adult that Ned had sanctioned, to at least some extent, by making her Sansa's mother-in-law elect. He appears never to have qualified this sanction.

if sansa had NOBODY else to go to i could maybe go for that. but the fact is, she was in a foreign land with only a hand full or so of the people she's known in her life, and instead of going to one of them(HER SEPTA MAYBE, or one of her fathers sworn swords-men she's known her whole life whom she knows her father would listen to) she goes to the woman who tried to punish her sister and killed pet direwolf. that wouldn't be an intelligent move for a girl half her age, so why condone it with sansa?

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And this is in sharp contrast to Arya. Ned spends some time with Arya, gets to understand her issues, and arranges for Syrio to tutor her - all round, a piece of excellent parenting. Sansa however was left alone to "weep her eyes dry" without any guidance.

arya wanting to learn how to sword fight and sansa not wanting to leave kingslanding are two totally different types of scenarios. one is a child wanting to learn something that is not normally taught to people of her gender. the other is a child simply not listening to their parent because they don't recognize the danger they are in and they wanted to fulfill their own fantasy. are there some similarities there? of course. but that doesn't mean that they are parallels. that's like saying your daughter wanting to play tackle football and your daughter wanting to move to a foreign country with her violently abusive boyfriend who is also the guitarist son of charles manson is pretty much the same dilemma. they are not! the former can be easily remedied through a constructive discussion seeing as how most parents would not want to discourage their children from equipping themselves with more worldly knowledge than they are expected to have, especially a child who seeks this kind of education. while the latter depends on trying to rationalize and talk logically with a preteen girl about the problems with having a crush on the 'bad boy'.

"War is easier than daughters"

Edited by LordofWinter, 03 May 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[solidsnake]

Sansa is a dimwit - Oh hey Cersei, I know you had my direwolf killed and you're a ruthless monster, but I'm going to tell you my father's plans anyways just so you'll still like me. and let me be a princess.. yayyy

Lied about Nymeria , gets Lady killed. Betrays father, and directly / indirectly leads to his falling. Betrayed family and her direwolf. She is a disgrace to the wolfpack. Does not belong.

Edited by solidsnake, 15 October 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[evita mgfs]

Fantôme, on 02 May 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

That's assuming all the hypothesis about lyanna are GRRM confirmed facts and not just hypothesis. (I'm not saying they're not likely just that they're still just theory until Martin says it clearly).

Anyway my main problem with Sansa running to Cersei is precisely that she ran to Cersei. The woman wantonly ordered her direwolf to death and wanted her little sister punished for something sansa knows arya was innocent off , and yet does she hold it against her? Nope she blames Arya and still think cersei is kind and likes her. That was really stupid and hypocritical, even for a girl this age. Thankfully she's grown out of this naivety. But imo the idiocy of the betrayal beats the unintentional aspect of it. As for the " she should be loyal to the king first" argument, well she didn't give a damn about that,did she? She just didn't want to lose what she had.

Good post, Fantom.   I think Sansa acted like a typical thoughtless, selfish adolescent who was 'wet for' Joffrey.  Sansa was thinking of something else when she went to Cersei - she wanted Joffrey, with the same passion and ill-fated folly of Bella wanting the vampire Edward Cullen.  Just a few thoughts off the cuff.

[Landru]

houseHB, on 02 May 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

She was a young dumb girl blinded by love sort of like Lyanna with Reaghar, look what that did it cost her her father and brother.

I have to say, I was a big Sansa hater in Game of Thrones (although I come to like her as she has developed) but she had nothing to do with Ned's death -- that was all on Ned.

Everyone wants to reference Cersei telling Tyrion that it was Sansa who 'saved' the Lannisters but Cersei lied -- she couldn't tell Tyrion that Ned came to her because that would lend significant credibility to Ned's claims -- why would Ned 'warn' her that he was about to make false claims that could endanger her children?

Cersei claiming Sansa told her makes Cersei look clever/able while deflecting the truth. It is even better because yes, Sansa did come to her, so that part was not a lie.

Sansa knew very little, only that Ned was going to take her away and break off the engagement with Joffrey. If this was the only information Cersei had, she may have been able to fill in the rest but she didn't need to because, again, Ned told her.

I am fully with Michael Corleone, "Never go against the family," so I am not excusing what Sansa did. She was naive, selfish and stupid but she did not, directly or indirectly, cause her father's or brother's death.

As for whether that is 'normal' for someone her age -- hard to say, again, all she knew is that her father was going to break off a wedding she wanted to happen and take her back to Winterfell, which she did not want. I don't think it is surprising that she tried to get outside help to change the course of events.

What I do think is surprising is that she wanted anything to do with Cersei and/or Joffrey after Lady was killed. Personally, I have never liked anyone enough at any age to forgive them wilfully killing my dog -- I am quite confident such an act would overpower whatever serotonin and dopamine was coursing around in my brain to allow me to reassess my feelings.

[Rapsie]

solidsnake, on 15 October 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

Sansa is a dimwit - Oh hey Cersei, I know you had my direwolf killed and you're a ruthless monster, but I'm going to tell you my father's plans anyways just so you'll still like me. and let me be a princess.. yayyy

She went to Cersei asking if she could stay in KL. if anyone was betrayed it was Sansa and Arya by Ned and Cat. Despite knowing the Lannisters may have killed Jon Arryn, and knowing Lannister nature, they sent their very unprepared children off to KL. They should have explained to Arya that she was no longer the person in charge's daughter and would have to do what she was told by the King and Queen. If Arya hadn't swanned off to play with Mycah instead of going to see the Queen as she was invited to do, things may have been very different. Not that that is Arya's fault. She grew up as a princess who could pretty much do as she liked with only her parents as a higher authority. She continually disobeyed her father all down the King's Road by going off when she wasn't meant to and Ned never reprimanded her for it. He never bothered explaining that she had to begin behaving differently. Looking through the chapters, you see that Sansa never disobeys, but as she sees Arya getting away with things, she begins to follow suit. Similarly, Ned should have explained to Sansa tobe careful round the Queen and that she was not a surrogate mother, but someone she had to be very wary of. Ned's execution of Lady backs up Cersei's demand. Ned ostensibly sided with Cersei because he did as commanded. He was still faithful to Robert after the Lady incident. it was a poor example to set for Sansa. he set Cersei up as a higher authority than himself in Sansa's eyes (which given he was Hand, she shouldn't have been). Neither situation was Arya's or Sansa's fault but poor parenting from Ned and Septa Mordane who was at best, useless.

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Lied about Nymeria , gets Lady killed. Betrays father, and directly / indirectly leads to his falling. Betrayed family and her direwolf. She is a disgrace to the wolfpack. Does not belong.

Seriously, try reading the books. She didn't lie about Nymeria, she said I don't remember. An actually lie would have been to side with Joff, but she didn't say Joff's version was correct, she just didn't want to get involved. She was a terrified little girl, in a very hostile situation (re read Ned's description of the room and how even he felt it intimidating). Also Ned may have got her to open up if Arya had immediately attacked her and punched her to the ground.

On to Lady. How did she get Lady killed? That was all Cersei, Robert and Ned (who was incredibly weak in defending his daughters during this whole episode). Also why does anyone think that Sansa backing Arya's story would have changed anything. The truth is that Joff as Crown Prince could hurt Mycah if he wanted to (Look at the way Robert really rode Gendry down). Arya hit the Crown Prince and Nymeria bit him. Regardless of anything else, you do not hit the Crown Prince even if what he is doing is wrong. Look at the Hedge Knight where Dunk nearly loses his hands and feet for hitting the Crown Prince to stop him beating a helpless girl.

Ned should have got his daughters well out of KL before telling Cersei anything. Even when Rebly suggests seizing Cersei's kids, Ned doesn't even think what if Cersei tries to harm my daughters. Ned utterly fails his daughters. Had he not told Cersei anything, then Sansa could have gone to Cersei and it wouldn't have any impact as Cersei would have just presumed they were being sent away due to Ned and his men being attacked by Jaime.

If anyone was betrayed, it was Arya and Sansa by Ned. They should have been his number one priority, not Robert and Robert's interests.

Edited by Rapsie, 16 October 2012 - 01:07 AM.

[evita mgfs]

Rapsie, great argument.    All the posters are doing a fine job of using the source material as evidence.  I am completely uncertain now.




I especially like the idea of Ned failing his daughters.  I had thought he jumped the gun telling Cersei.  That was a big mistake.

[Lyanna Stark]

Rapsie, on 16 October 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Ned should have got his daughters well out of KL before telling Cersei anything. Even when Rebly suggests seizing Cersei's kids, Ned doesn't even think what if Cersei tries to harm my daughters. Ned utterly fails his daughters. Had he not told Cersei anything, then Sansa could have gone to Cersei and it wouldn't have any impact as Cersei would have just presumed they were being sent away due to Ned and his men being attacked by Jaime.

Further, Cersei perpetuates the lie that it was Sansa who played the crucial part when she tells Tyrion of the incident, but what Cersei is really doing is covering up that Ned found out about the incest.

It's much easier for Cersei to blame it all on Sansa instead of admitting that Ned had found out about the incest, confessed to Cersei that he knew and he had to go.

Sansa's plea to Cersei helped Sansa herself get imprisoned and it made it easier for the Lannisters to off some Stark guards and it made it easier for them to capture the Stark faction completely (minus Arya) but apart from that, it had no effect on Ned being named a traitor.

Cersei says so, but Cersei is lying to Tyrion.

[Newstar]

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If anyone was betrayed it was Sansa and Arya by Ned and Cat. Despite knowing the Lannisters may have killed Jon Arryn, and knowing Lannister nature, they sent their very unprepared children off to KL.

I think both can be true without having anything to do with one another; Ned and Cat may have made some ill-advised parenting decisions, but that doesn't have anything to do with the question of whether Sansa betrayed Ned. This thread concerns whether Sansa betrayed Ned, not whether Ned and Cat could have prepared their children better for King's Landing. While I appreciate your reasoning, it seems irrelevant to the central question of whether Sansa, in going to Cersei, betrayed Ned.

As for that question? I don't think so. She was disobedient, for sure, but betrayal implies to me some form of disloyalty or giving information/aid to a known enemy. She knowingly defied her father and disobeyed him, which was a crappy, ill-advised thing to do, but was she disloyal? Ned hadn't given Sansa any reason to think of the queen as an enemy; all he had said was that they were leaving and it was better that no one know of their plans. I guess an intelligent person would infer from that statement that it was dangerous in King's Landing and no one was to be trusted with this information, but Sansa has never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. She was fully aware that she was disobeying Ned and that she was doing something wrong, but I don't think that this amounts to disloyalty, as Sansa lacked the information to understand that any revelation of this information would be a betrayal of her family; she had no idea that Cersei was an enemy of the family (you'd think Cersei's ordered murder of Lady would have been a tipoff, but again, not the sharpest knife in the drawer). All that she knew was that their departure was to be a secret. It's true that she was thoughtless as to the potential consequences, indicating a lack of concern for Ned and Arya, but again, Sansa's not the sharpest knife in the drawer; it never occurred to her that she might be doing something dangerous.

However, Tyrion himself (one of the smartest and most perceptive characters in the books/voice of GRRM) considers that Sansa is "hardly innocent of betrayal." Cersei lied about the extent of Sansa's responsibility, but she is not lying about Sansa telling Cersei Ned's plans. So while I personally might not consider it betrayal, I think GRRM does.

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Further, Cersei perpetuates the lie that it was Sansa who played the crucial part when she tells Tyrion of the incident, but what Cersei is really doing is covering up that Ned found out about the incest.

That's part of it, but I dunno; I think GRRM wants us to remember that Sansa played a role in Ned's fate. It comes up in ACOK when Cersei is crowing about Sansa being "wet with love" (gross) and gloating to Tyrion about Sansa spilling all; she's lying about the extent of Sansa's responsibility for Ned's fate, true, but she's not wrong about Sansa coming to her and telling all voluntarily for love of Joffrey. That part's all true. It also comes up in ASOS when Tyrion is hesitant to trust Sansa, knowing that she's "hardly innocent of betrayal." The information on which he's forming that opinion--Sansa told Cersei Ned's plans because she was in love with Joffrey and would have done anything for him--is 100.0% accurate.

It seems important that GRRM reminds us a few times that Sansa did what she did in AGOT. I'm not a mind reader, but my sense is that I don't think he wants us to forget or to explain it away with reference to Sansa's age or arguments about Ned and Cat's parenting deficiencies. It's important that we remember what she did, whether you wish to characterize it as betrayal or not. Maybe it foreshadows Sansa tracking into Littlefinger 2.0, another person who's been known to use deceit and subterfuge to advance his own selfish interests with no regard to the consequences to others. To me, GRRM seems to be emphasizing that Sansa's actions with Nymeria/Arya and with Cersei, regardless of whether they're properly characterized as "betrayal" or just disobedience/dishonesty at a very inopportune time, say something about her character, and they don't say anything good. I therefore think arguments against the "betrayal" interpretation, which rely heavily on Sansa's age/innocence/insufficient training to absolve Sansa of even a whiff of moral culpability and to refute any suggestion that she even did anything wrong, are missing the point.

As to the discussions that Sansa "does not belong with the wolfpack," I think these two moments in AGOT (with Nymeria/Arya and with Cersei) represent two instances where Sansa implicitly chose the Lannisters over her own family, even though I don't think she really understood the implications of her actions. The moment she threw her lot in with the Lannisters (by lying about Nymeria/Arya), she lost her direwolf; that's not a coincidence. It's not just that her connection to the Starks was severed; a connection to the Lannisters was formed. She's been cut off from her family and tangled up with the Lannisters ever since. She may have married Tyrion in ASOS, but she married the Lannisters in AGOT. Even the flight from King's Landing hasn't severed her bond with the Lannisters; she's still married to a Lannister, and she's still wanted by a Lannister for murder.

And really, if she did symbolically throw her lot in with the Lannisters with these two separate actions in AGOT, it's hardly surprising. In doing so, she showed herself not to be a Stark, but a Lannister, at least in a spiritual sense. Starks aren't known for acting like selfish, amoral liars who turn on their own, but Lannisters? Absolutely.

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She didn't lie about Nymeria, she said I don't remember.

She did remember, though, so "I don't remember" is indeed a lie. Ned also later agreed with Arya's statement that Sansa lied when she said she didn't remember.

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Also why does anyone think that Sansa backing Arya's story would have changed anything.

This is entirely irrelevant to whether Sansa betrayed Arya by lying. (I tend to think Sansa's actions with Nymeria/Arya were worse than what happened with Cersei, since Sansa had no idea what she was risking when she went to Cersei beyond some sense that she was being disobedient, but she knew darn well that the incident with Joffrey was serious business and that the consequences for her sister and Nymeria could be very, very bad if she didn't support Arya, and she went ahead and lied anyway. Not cool.)

Edited by Newstar, 16 October 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[A wilding]

Newstar, on 16 October 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

And really, if she did symbolically throw her lot in with the Lannisters with these two separate actions in AGOT, it's hardly surprising. In doing so, she showed herself not to be a Stark, but a Lannister, at least in a spiritual sense. Starks aren't known for acting like selfish, amoral liars who turn on their own, but Lannisters? Absolutely.

I don't think that Sansa's behaviour during the Nymeria business could possibly be described as "selfish amoral lying" by any stretch of the imagination. It was transparently obvious that she was terrified, and that she simply took the coward's way out. (Though as said above Ned might have coaxed her into talking if Arya had not prevented it.)

Which rather torpedos your thesis.

And it was Ned who was marrying her to the Lannisters. And who was continuing to marry her to the Lannisters even after the Nymeria business.

Incidentally, Tyrion's judgment of women he finds attractive is actually rather poor.

[solidsnake]

Rapsie, on 16 October 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Seriously, try reading the books. She didn't lie about Nymeria, she said I don't remember. An actually lie would have been to side with Joff, but she didn't say Joff's version was correct, she just didn't want to get involved. She was a terrified little girl, in a very hostile situation (re read Ned's description of the room and how even he felt it intimidating). Also Ned may have got her to open up if Arya had immediately attacked her and punched her to the ground.

Yeah I did read the books, and I guess saying  " I don't remember" when you do , isn't lying .... right?!

[Lyanna Stark]

Newstar, on 16 October 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

That's part of it, but I dunno; I think GRRM wants us to remember that Sansa played a role in Ned's fate. It comes up in ACOK when Cersei is crowing about Sansa being "wet with love" (gross) and gloating to Tyrion about Sansa spilling all; she's lying about the extent of Sansa's responsibility for Ned's fate, true, but she's not wrong about Sansa coming to her and telling all voluntarily for love of Joffrey. That part's all true. It also comes up in ASOS when Tyrion is hesitant to trust Sansa, knowing that she's "hardly innocent of betrayal." The information on which he's forming that opinion--Sansa told Cersei Ned's plans because she was in love with Joffrey and would have done anything for him--is 100.0% accurate.

It's not though, because Cersei is lying.

The reason the whole kerfuffle took place was because of Ned's confession to Cersei, not because of Sansa. Then Ned did not expalin himself at all and Sansa went to plead with Cersei to stay since from her POV, she was being the victim of her father's whim. A completely unfounded decision.

Sansa helped Cersei with some details and made it easier for her, but the person who put his foot in was not Sansa, it was Ned.

Hence Cersei is completely overplaying the role Sansa had, and Tyrion labelling it as "betrayal" is also wrong. Sansa simply went to plead with Cersei about a decision her father made she didn't understand and thought was wrong. Sansa was being disobedient, not treasonous.


As for the rest, A wilding covered it very well above.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 October 2012 - 08:16 AM.