385 replies to this topic

[Lord Ben]

Ser Hippie, on 15 April 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

So if we blame Sansa for harming her family at age 11, what do we do with Ned who basically puts his head on a platter for Cersei by

Sansa is 11. Ned is the highly respected and seasoned Lord and Warden of the North. Whose "betrayal" of their family warrants more scorn?

Some people seem absurdly eager to paint an eleven year old girl as some sort of nefarious Judas when Ned is the one that preciptates the disaster.

Becaue the topic is whether or not she betrayed him.  Who's betrayal is worse would gather different answers.   The Starks are pretty unsavy politically when dealing with non-northmen.  They're honorable and foolish when they get south of the Neck.

Edited by Lord Ben, 15 April 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

I think Sansa did betray Ned simply because she should have known at that point that the Lannisters were no good. She knew exactly what happened with the incident with Joff, Arya and Micah but she went along with Joff's lie which lead to Micah's death. And Joff was a dick to her for a long time after that incident so why should she have any loyalty for him?  She also refuses to blame Cersei for ordering the death of Lady who was completely innocent and instead projects the blame onto Arya. I think she just refused to see reason and refused to think rationally because she selfishly only cared about being queen and having a fairy tale life.

Edited by MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, 15 April 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[Golden Lady]

@fire&blood , @Castel .I understand that she is a young innocent girl and she could not have done a lot. But , I don't know, something.She could have argued against the king. For example, in the day of joffrey's name day, when tyron arrives she says " my father was a traitor, I’m loyal to my beloved Joffrey ", and she continued with the idea of being betrothed to the psycho who murdered her father.
I'm not justifying the death of ned. Sansa was not guilty. He did not know how to play the game.sooner or later he was going to die. But I think that she reacted Peacefully.

[Winter's Knight]

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Correct, you can't defy the King.  But it doesn't mean you have to run and squeal to his wife every time you Dad tells you to do something  you disagree with.

Her father was breaking off a royal match-so yes, you do report to the royal family.

[Ser Hippie]

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Becaue the topic is whether or not she betrayed him.  Who's betrayal is worse would gather different answers.   The Starks are pretty unsavy politically when dealing with non-northmen.

That's pretty much irrelevant when people in this topic are arguing that Sansa's betrayal caused various events that, in fact, were Ned's fault far more than Sansa's. Even if you consider her actions a true betrayal (which I sort of do, personally, although her age is a mitigating factor among many), the actual effect was minimal and the reactions to Sansa out of proportion.

At worst, she unwittingly betrays Ned's trust and much/most of that can be put on Ned as well (not making it clear as to the consequences of leaving, not having guards protecting his daughters, his political ineptitude, etc.).

Edited by Ser Hippie, 15 April 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[The King in the South]

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Answering your paragraphs

1. You don't go against your family.  Ever.  Kinslayers aren't mere murderors, they're reviled as unnatural by pretty much everyone, even the kinslayers themselves typically.   Winter is coming and you have to be the pack that sticks together, not a lone wolf.  Family bonds/responsibilities is one of the primary driving mechanisms in the stories.

2. Ignore Westeros ages. It's clearly not a setting where people do impressive things at young ages.   To believe Rob Stark is a cabable leader/commander at 14 but then excuse Sansa for being "only 11" is to cherry pick when you judge people as Westerossi and when you apply modern expectations on them.

3.  I think her character arc will show tremendous change as she experiences the world.  For her character to grow from an immature selfish little princess into something else it should be recognized where her character story started.   She started by being caught up in love, selfish, and so eager to be queen that she betrayed her family and father in order to curry favor with the Queen.  I think her actions should have repercussions like every other character, just like Ned's decision to act honorably meant his head.  Those repercussions have mostly already occured and anything left has pretty much been set in motion with her being carried off by LF for his own purposes.  I do think it will "and should" get a bit worse though first.   Whatever plans LF has I doubt they're for her own direct benefit and that should play itself out.

1. Are we speaking from a Westerosi standpoint here or our own? Well I do agree that going against your family is usually not a good thing, there is certainly some cause if your family members do harm/whatever against you. Obviously in this case, Ned's harm against Sansa is very slight, but given the context of her situation and her knowledge/overall bearing, to her it is much more. Combine that with stress/emotion/etc and you get what you get.
I'll leave you to respond to my first question before I continue because I am not entirely sure what you're insinuating and you might have missed the point of my post.

2. I might have misunderstood what you said here.  I'm not cherry picking, I'm simply pointing out that given her age and expierence, this is not something I would or should expect her to be able to formulate. Arya does so because she has a different mindset and has had different expiereinces. (And I don't think Robb was a very good leader at 14, but nor would I have expected him to be so.)

3. I agree with your first point here, but not entirely. I think the selfishness was more delusion if anything. Sansa did not do this because she cared more about herself than her families happiness, she simply did not know it would effect them so.
Wait, seriously though, she's been beaten, verbally abused, stripped naked, forced into marriage, and you think she should suffer more? What...please tell me I misread that.

[Lord Ben]

Winterbreath, on 15 April 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Her father was breaking off a royal match-so yes, you do report to the royal family.

A match made by a King would be void when he dies.

[Golden Lady]

@mylifeisnotsoprecious I agree with you. She did not say a thing when cerseiordered to kill lady.she lied, she protected joffrey and not arya.

[Lady Kraken]

Yes, she betrayed Ned, though not with malicious intent. I think that much is obvious enough. She directly disobeyed her father's order. But like I said, I don't believe she thought anything drastic would come of it. She thought she'd get to stay with the prince she thought loved her. If the situation had been explained in more depth, she wouldn't have reacted in this way, but Ned assumed that she was the obedient daughter, as she really was up until this point. But at this stage, she still had a tendency to brush over negative experiences and convince herself that beautiful people like the Queen and Joffrey were also good people. This is clearly a character flaw. If she didn't have a flaw, she'd be a rather boring character, wouldn't she?

Nearly all of these characters make poor decisions at some point. Even though I tend to go easier on the younger characters like Sansa, Arya and Bran than I might on older characters, it doesn't mean I think these actions can't be strikes against them, but by permanently condemning Sansa for this particular mistake, I think a reader might miss her development, the fact that she's learning from her mistakes, and her desire to reconnect with her family. I personally have seen great change in Sansa's character, and her thoughts on her family and herself as well as the building of the snow castle indicate that she wants to put her home back together and knows she played some part in it's downfall.

I also object to the idea that she somehow 'killed' Ned. It's hard for me to believe that Ned would not have ended up in the same position without Sansa's intervention after he turned down Renly and trusted Baelish. He was an honorable man surrounded by dishonorable ones. Sansa pleaded for his life and had to watch Joffrey make a spectacle out of his death--effectively shattering any illusions she had about Joffrey and pretty much people in general. Joffrey killed Ned, purposely and viciously. Sansa has suffered, and Sansa has endured, and it's impossible for me to still hold this action against her.

Edited by Lady Kraken, 16 April 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

The King in the South, on 15 April 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Wait, seriously though, she's been beaten, verbally abused, stripped naked, forced into marriage, and you think she should suffer more? What...please tell me I misread that.

It's the fabled "misogyny" Queen Cersei keeps talking about.

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

A match made by a King would be void when he dies.

Bob was alive when she approached the Queen.

Edited by Winterbreath, 15 April 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[Ser Hippie]

Golden lady, on 15 April 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

@mylifeisnotsoprecious I agree with you. She did not say a thing when cerseiordered to kill lady.she lied, she protected joffrey and not arya.

This isn't true - she keeps quiet (well, refuses to remember) when asked who attacked who first; Arya or Joffrey. She definitely speaks up when Lady is involved.

In any case, whether Sansa speaks up then or not is irrelevant to Lady surviving. Nymeria still attacked Joffrey and Cersei would still push for Lady's death; an attack on a royal person is a serious offense and it would have been punished regardless.

[Dracarya]

Ser Hippie, on 15 April 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

So if we blame Sansa for harming her family at age 11, what do we do with Ned who basically puts his head on a platter for Cersei by

(1) Telling her his plans
(2) Refusing to work with Renly
(3) Refusing to work with LF to control Joffrey (and instead blindly accepting the gold cloaks would be his)
(4) Neglecting to take any precautions w/regards to Robert's will, instead blindly assuming it would be respected
(5) Apparently neglects to ensure the "secret" departure of his daughters is kept secret, he couldn't, you know, assign a guard to Sansa to be safe, regardless of anything else?

Sansa is 11. Ned is the highly respected and seasoned Lord and Warden of the North. Whose "betrayal" of their family warrants more scorn?

Some people seem absurdly eager to paint an eleven year old girl as some sort of nefarious Judas when Ned is the one that preciptates the disaster.

As for the earlier post about Sansa being saved by LF; sure, she gets saved by a creepy man who has sexual fantasies about her and controls her to the extent that she's trapped within his web. What a lucky girl.

I guess that's directed at me, and that wasn't my point. My point was that she was saved, she didn't do anything to get herself out of the situation. She always has other people helping her, be it Ser Dontos, the Queen of Thorns or Littlefinger. She didn't find a way to escape KL, Ser Dontos (through LF) presented her with one. Control her he might, but he also keeps her away from the Lannisters and certain death. I can't say what his plan for her is yet, and yes I find LF creepy, but she's still relatively safe, compared to how she was in KL.

As to your other points, I'm pretty sure we're discussing Sansa here, but I'll give it a stab.

Ned always did what he thought was right. I'm not going to defend all of his actions, but he never did anything for selfish reasons. He didn't want to work with Renly because Stannis was the rightful heir. He assumed that the King's dying word would be respected by his widow and 'children'. I thought he did assign guards to the girls. He (stupidly, IMHO) told his children of his plans because he trusted them, and didn't expect them to go blabbing to anyone about them. He didn't betray his family - he worked within his honour, and did what he felt was right. At the end of the day, what more can any of us do?

Golden lady, on 15 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

@fire&blood , @Castel .I understand that she is a young innocent girl and she could not have done a lot. But , I don't know, something.She could have argued against the king. For example, in the day of joffrey's name day, when tyron arrives she says " my father was a traitor, I’m loyal to my beloved Joffrey ", and she continued with the idea of being betrothed to the psycho who murdered her father.
I'm not justifying the death of ned. Sansa was not guilty. He did not know how to play the game.sooner or later he was going to die. But I think that she reacted Peacefully.

I understand your points, and frustrating as it was, I could see why she behaved as she did. Her courtesy was her armour, and if she'd spoken up any more than she did, I can't imagine the punishment she would have received. By the time of Joffreys' nameday, her father had already been killed in front of her, so she knew very much what Joffrey was capable of by then. I can imagine she was terrified, left alone to be abused by people she trusted over her own family. I don't recall that she believes she betrayed her father and family for such a monster, but it becomes quite clear just how sick and evil Joffrey is. As for continuing with the betrothal, I don't think she had much choice, do you? Both Cersei and Joffrey decided that the betrothal would not be broken, and so Sansa didn't get a say in it, just like she didn't get a say in her marriage to Tyrion.

I get where you're coming from. I find it very difficult to identify with Sansa at all, and I would have loved to see Joffrey try to pull the same shit on Arya, but I can definitely see why she didn't speak out against the decisions being made for her, and the injustices and abuse done against her and her family.

Edited by Fire&Blood, 15 April 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

Ser Hippie, on 15 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

This isn't true - she keeps quiet (well, refuses to remember) when asked who attacked who first; Arya or Joffrey. She definitely speaks up when Lady is involved.

In any case, whether Sansa speaks up then or not is irrelevant to Lady surviving. Nymeria still attacked Joffrey and Cersei would still push for Lady's death; an attack on a royal person is a serious offense and it would have been punished regardless.

Not to mention, if she had told the truth it would only have resulted in Arya getting into trouble for striking the royal person.

[Lady Kraken]

Golden lady, on 15 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

@fire&blood , @Castel .I understand that she is a young innocent girl and she could not have done a lot. But , I don't know, something.She could have argued against the king. For example, in the day of joffrey's name day, when tyron arrives she says " my father was a traitor, I’m loyal to my beloved Joffrey ", and she continued with the idea of being betrothed to the psycho who murdered her father.
I'm not justifying the death of ned. Sansa was not guilty. He did not know how to play the game.sooner or later he was going to die. But I think that she reacted Peacefully.

She did plead for Joffrey to show mercy to her father in front of the entire court, so it's inaccurate to say she did nothing. And those words were empty words that she used to shield herself from Joffrey's wrath. They obviously pained her to say.

Oh, and do you actually think she had a choice in her betrothal to Joffrey? Because she really didn't. Do you think she willingly married Tyrion too?

Edited by Lady Kraken, 15 April 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[Raksha the Demon]

Dr. Pepper, on 15 April 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Yes, in the most basic sense it's a betrayal.  Her internal thought process indicates that she knows it was not proper to go behind her father's backs.  However, the betrayal isn't in the same category as Robb breaking his betrothal contract with the Freys or Jaime lying to Tyrion about Tysha.  Sansa was acting from a position of ignorance.  She knows that Ned wants them to leave KL and break the betrothal but she does not know why. At the time, the Queen had presented as a stand-in mother figure for Sansa.  What Sansa did was the equivalent of a teenager today being told by her father she couldn't go out with the boy and then running to her mother to ask permission.  It's still a betrayal of trust of sorts, but it's a completely forgivable action.

The admirable thing is that she learned very quickly from this.  She still isn't able to fully understand the games the high nobles play, but she's watching and listening and internalizing these lessons as they come.

I cut Sansa some slack on this one.  Of course, she should not have disobeyed Ned; but there's no indication that Sansa understood that asking Cersei, her future mother-in-law, the woman she had admired and hoped to follow as Queen, would result in the deaths of all the Stark retainers and men-at-arms.  I do think she regarded Cersei as a mother-surrogate; and the incident seems like a rebellious preteen act rather than a change of allegiance.  Sansa was not only very sheltered, she was quite young, eleven years old, an immature child rather than a teenager or an adult.  At that age, the three years between eleven and fourteen, or even 12/15, i.e. Sansa and Robb, is a huge maturity gap.

What I would like to have happen is for Sansa to consciously realize that this specific action caused some deaths, not of her father, but probably some of the Stark men (and her Septa).  Sansa has understood that her trust in Joffrey and Cersei cost her her father's life, but I don't think she's put together all the dots; possibly out of emotional self-preservation (it was depressing and scary enough being the Kingsguard punching bag on Joffrey's orders, or being a hostage in general; without realizing that her wanting the Queen to command her father to let her stay and marry Prince not-so-Charming resulting in deaths of Stark people) - or not knowing the timeline of events for that day/night.  

[Ser Hippie]

Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

I guess that's directed at me, and that wasn't my point. My point was that she was saved, she didn't do anything to get herself out of the situation. She always has other people helping her, be it Ser Dontos, the Queen of Thorns or Littlefinger. She didn't find a way to escape KL, Ser Dontos (through LF) presented her with one.

But this argument doesn't really make any sense. What is she supposed to do on her own? It'd be terribly unrealistic for a single young girl/woman without any friends or resources to somehow escape King's Landing on her own. What is Sansa supposed to do, seeing as she isn't the one becoming a super ninja assassin at age nine?

Quote

Controls her he might, but he also keeps her away from the Lannisters and certain death. I can't say what his plan for her is yet, and yes I find LF creepy, but she's still relatively safe, compared to how she was in KL.

Again, I'm baffled by this line of argument. Her physical security might (might - given that Ser Shadrich is there, for example) be slightly better but she's still a prisoner and LF has the same sexual desires that Joffrey threatened her with.Her life is still pretty bad, and it's not like LF is looking out for her because of altruistic reasons, he views her as an asset at best and a sexual target on top of it at worst (well he might kill her too, if she threatened him, I guess, but nevermind that).

Quote

Ned always did what he thought was right. I'm not going to defend all of his actions, but he never did anything for selfish reasons. He didn't want to work with Renly because Stannis was the rightful heir. He assumed that the King's dying word would be respected by his widow and 'children'. I thought he did assign guards to the girls. He (stupidly, IMHO) told his children of his plans because he trusted them, and didn't expect them to go blabbing to anyone about them. He didn't betray his family - he worked within his honour, and did what he felt was right. At the end of the day, what more can any of us do?

So the eleven year old girl who gave Cersei is guilty of betraying her family but the experienced Ned is only guilty of trying too hard to be a decent, honorable guy? The point is that people are ascribing the consequences of Ned's actions to Sansa as if what she told Cersei is the sole, or even major, cause for the events at the end of AGOT.

Sansa's "betrayal" - if it was that - matters next to nothing compared to Ned's actions.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 15 April 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[Dracarya]

Winterbreath, on 15 April 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

It's the fabled "misogyny" Queen Cersei keeps talking about.

I assume you're being serious, so why would it be misogyny? I don't agree with thinking Sansa should suffer more, but I don't think the opinion of her suffering more is because she's a woman. I think it's simply because of her actions and the decisions she's made. Being a woman has nothing to do with it.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Winterbreath, on 15 April 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Not to mention, if she had told the truth it would only have resulted in Arya getting into trouble for striking the royal person.

I think it would have resulted in Joff getting in trouble with Robert for picking a fight with a little girl.

And as for Lady dying. I'm not saying that Sansa should have somehow prevented Cersei from having her killed, she just shouldn't have had any lover for the queen afterwards.

[Winter's Knight]

Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I assume you're being serious, so why would it be misogyny? I don't agree with thinking Sansa should suffer more, but I don't think the opinion of her suffering more is because she's a woman. I think it's simply because of her actions and the decisions she's made. Being a woman has nothing to do with it.

It seems strange to me that one would demand that a young girl who has already undergone severe physical, sexual and mental abuse and is in the power of an immoral predatory man, should suffer further for having a minor role in causing a series of events that would have happened anyway.

Assuming that all posters here are of sound mind, I shall have to blame an internalised misogyny.

[Lord Ben]

The King in the South, on 15 April 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

3. I agree with your first point here, but not entirely. I think the selfishness was more delusion if anything. Sansa did not do this because she cared more about herself than her families happiness, she simply did not know it would effect them so.
Wait, seriously though, she's been beaten, verbally abused, stripped naked, forced into marriage, and you think she should suffer more? What...please tell me I misread that.

She specifically mentions feeling "As wicked as Arya" when defying her Father and going to the Queen.  She knew it was a bad thing to do and did it anyway.

She "should" like she deserves it or she "should" like that's where the story is going?   She was taken away by one of the most manipulative figures in Westeros and is in the process of being used as his pawn in a few of his schemes.   I don't see any easy way out of it that makes sense in the story so she "should" (as in I predict it will happen) suffer some more.

If my wife picks up a Nickolas Sparks book to read you can be virtually assured someone will fall in love and also experience immense sadness.   It doesn't mean she thinks that the person deserves to die in a car accident or of cancer or whatever, only that's the type of story she recognizes she's reading.    I recognize that GRRM isn't writing a story where LF kidnaps the princess and brings her to his tower where she doesn't suffer at all and then is rescued by someone and nothing bad happens.   It would feel cheap if Ser Loras climbs through her bedroom window and saves her, she "should" suffer some more, it's the type of book it is, full of realistic outcomes to various situations.