Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:
She never relied on anyone. She didn't sit back and wait for someone to rescue her.
First, I was actually only being snarky and didn't intend to be rude. so I apologize if I caused offense - sarcasm doesn't translate well sometimes. That being said, this simply isn't true, Arya doesn't proactively save herself, others do it for her (although she does get to stab a couple of people, for whatever that's worth).
Arya was saved because Syrio actively interposed himself between her and the guards, and because Yoren actively grabbed her, etc. Arya got a lot of lucky breaks and helpful people with her (rescued by the BwB group that happens to have Harwin in it, etc). Trying to claim there is a stark (pun definitely not intended) dichotomy between Sansa always relying on people and Arya never relying on them simply doesn't match the text.
If Yoren had grabbed Sansa and chopped off her hair in order to disguise her, I don't think she would have gone very willingly, do you? No, she has to have a fairytale escape.
I'm not sure why you think Sansa would turn down a chance to escape because it wasn't a fairytale, since she came to see the very unromantic Ser Dontos as her hero.
Arya is perfectly capable of making decisions and taking care of herself, as she has proven time and time again.
Especially when saved by the likes of the former First Sword of Braavos, the Night's Watch, the Brotherhood without Banners, Sandor Clegane and the Faceless Men.
As for your argument about Arya being trained by someone else, I guess we should just discard every knight in the kingdom then, as they all learnt from someone else, did they not? And as for being given Needle, unless you're an armourer, I don't see how you can make your own sword. Everything Arya has been 'given', she has earned, in my book. As for Yoren and the other recruits fighting Amory Lorch, they were all under attack. Didn't Yoren know that they were, in fact, after Gendry, not Arya? If so, he was hardly just protecting her. If not, again, he wasn't just protecting her. He was protecting the law of the land, that your crimes are wiped out once you're given to the NW.
You're misunderstanding or misreading my point completely. You claimed Sansa is a passive, almost willing, victim while Arya actively saves herself. The fact of the matter is that Arya is gifted a number of protecters and other figures that help her escape, she most definitely does not escape on her own. Be it Syrio Forel or Jaqen H'ghar or Yoren, there's always someone else looking after her.
I don't recall you asking me, but there's been a lot to answer and it's late, so I apologise. I think she could have - not should have, because I understand the danger she was in and the possible implications of her acting - sided with Tyrion,
Sided with Tyrion how, and why? She doesn't know him apart from the fact that he's a Lannister and it's not like Tyrion is actively trying to help her beyond being polite. He's not going out of his way to send her home or anything.
asked people to make themselves clear, such as the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, and recognised what they were up to and so joined them, gone with the Hound...
How's Sansa supposed to know that Ser Dontos is working for LF? Apparently not a single other person in King's Landing figured it out, even Varys from what we can tell. As for leaving with the Hound, is it really that surprising given the circumstances (mid-battle, he's drunk and possibly thinking of raping her)?
hell, she could have picked up a sword or some poison and killed Joffrey herself, but she didn't, she waited for someone else to save her.
think about killing him and the Hound stopped her. In any case, how do you supposed Sansa would acquire and use a sword or poison, as she's trained at neither? It's sort of silly to suggest it would be reasonable to expect someone to act wholly out of character like that.
I don't know about you, but I would have thought more about getting myself away from such a brute than pleasing him and making it easier for myself.
Sure, if it was remotely logical or plausible to escape on your own. Sansa recognized her hopes lay in others (Dontos, the Tyrells, being ransomed), not in planning to cut off Joffrey's head with a dinner knife and then sprout wings to fly to safety. If she was as passive as you claim, why would she even bother dealing with Ser Dontos and his plans?
No, and I believe I said before that I won't try to defend all of his actions. I simply said that I understand his motives, not that I think what he did was right, or should I say, the best way to go about things. I don't think he was selfish, though I can perhaps see why it might be perceived that way - I don't think acting in the way you believe to be right is selfish at all. As an example, all the 'heretics' who were burned at the stake for not practicing Catholicism - were they wrong to die still believing in what they believed in? Their death as a heretic would have left a stain on their family too, and perhaps even put them in danger of the same treatment. Can we judge people on continuing to believe what they believe in their hearts to be the right thing, and acting upon it? I'm not sure.
Yet you and others judge Sansa but not Ned?
The fact of the matter is that Ned was willing to sacrifice his honor to save his daughters at one point (at his execution) yet was completely unwilling to bend his rules at any other time, when he could have saved the lives of his contingent in King's Landing and many others as well. Ned's so caught up in his obsession with doing the honorable thing that he fails to question the intelligence or 'rightness' of what he's doing.
And, again, Ned is the one who thinks Cersei poisoned Jon Arryn and that Tyrion tried to kill Bran yet he thinks he can scare Cersei away because that's what eases his conscience because he doesn't have to get his hands dirty. Why aren't people accusing Ned of betraying his house by putting his personal honor above the pragmatic demands of reality?
Edited by Ser Hippie, 15 April 2012 - 08:29 PM.