385 replies to this topic

[Raksha the Demon]

Golden lady, on 15 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

@fire&blood , @Castel .I understand that she is a young innocent girl and she could not have done a lot. But , I don't know, something.She could have argued against the king. For example, in the day of joffrey's name day, when tyron arrives she says " my father was a traitor, I’m loyal to my beloved Joffrey ", and she continued with the idea of being betrothed to the psycho who murdered her father.
I'm not justifying the death of ned. Sansa was not guilty. He did not know how to play the game.sooner or later he was going to die. But I think that she reacted Peacefully.

When Joffrey showed Sansa her father's head, she had just tearfully accused him of killing her father after promising him mercy; and when Joffrey, after showing her the heads and forcing her to stare at them, threatens to bring her brother's head, Sansa says that maybe Robb will bring her Joffrey's head.  This is major defiance from Sansa; she has always been more inclined to sulking and pouting.  Joffrey has one of his Kingsguard (forget which one) hit her.  Sandor advises Sansa that Joffrey wants her to be the sweet-tongued little lady and give him words of love.  By the time Sansa is saying habitually, in ACOK, that her parents and older brother are traitors and she's loyal to her beloved Joffrey, it's implied that she's been beaten more than once.  I can't blame Sansa for trying to avoid being beaten; and, sad to say, I'd probably chirp out nonsense to avoid being slapped around by adult knights too.  

[Dracarya]

Ser Hippie, on 15 April 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

But this argument doesn't really make any sense. What is she supposed to do on her own? It'd be terribly unrealistic for a single young girl/woman without any friends or resources to somehow escape King's Landing on her own. What is Sansa supposed to do, seeing as she isn't the one becoming a super ninja assassin at age nine?

Glad you picked up on that, because Arya managed to escape and survive. Arya has always done whatever she needed to do to survive, Sansa, on the other hand, has always relied on others to help her. I'm not suggesting that I expected Sansa to pick up a sword and kill everyone in the throne room, escaping on the back of a dragon, I was simply saying that her lack of ability to do anything for herself annoys me. Quite frankly I was surprised that Sansa didn't take a more active role in trying to rid herself of Joffrey - I know I would have, if I were caught in that kind of situation. That's my point - she's never had to think for herself. She's not entirely to blame for that, but I can't help it if I find it frustrating.

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Again, I'm baffled by this line of argument. Her physical security might (might - given that Ser Shadrich is there, for example) be slightly better but she's still a prisoner and LF has the same sexual desires that Joffrey threatened her with.Her life is still pretty bad.

I'm not arguing against LF's disgusting sexual desires for her, I was simply pointing out that, of all the people in the world, probably the one person who would care about keeping her safe whisks her away to the Eyrie, one of the safest castles in the realm - by that, I mean difficult to attack from the outside, not the potential dangers from the inside. Didn't LF post a guard to keep her safe, too, who stopped someone (was it Ser Shadrich? Apologies, I forget) from attempting to rape her? She's also being masqueraded as his daughter - he can hardly start coming onto her in public now. But again, I don't disagree that he poses a potential danger to her. I just hope she manages to get away before anything like that happens.

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So the eleven year old girl who gave Cersei is guilty of betraying her family but the experienced Ned is only guilty of trying too hard to be a decent, honorable guy? The point is that people are ascribing the consequences of Ned's actions to Sansa as if what she told Cersei is the sole, or even major, cause for the events at the end of AGOT.

I think it's the motives that are being questioned more here, not the actions. IMHO, Ned always tried to do the right thing for other people; Sansa was only interested in what was right for her. This isn't necessarily a criticism - as I said in a previous post, most children of that age are selfish and only focused on their own wants and needs - but simply a statement of fact.
I never said that Sansa telling Cersei of Ned's intentions was the sole or the major cause for the events that came after, but they were probably the most personal and surprising.

[Winter's Knight]

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

She specifically mentions feeling "As wicked as Arya" when defying her Father and going to the Queen.  She knew it was a bad thing to do and did it anyway.

She "should" like she deserves it or she "should" like that's where the story is going?   She was taken away by one of the most manipulative figures in Westeros and is in the process of being used as his pawn in a few of his schemes.   I don't see any easy way out of it that makes sense in the story so she "should" (as in I predict it will happen) suffer some more.

If my wife picks up a Nickolas Sparks book to read you can be virtually assured someone will fall in love and also experience immense sadness.   It doesn't mean she thinks that the person deserves to die in a car accident or of cancer or whatever, only that's the type of story she recognizes she's reading. I recognize that GRRM isn't writing a story where LF kidnaps the princess and brings her to his tower where she doesn't suffer at all and then is rescued by someone and nothing bad happens.   It would feel cheap if Ser Loras climbs through her bedroom window and saves her, she "should" suffer some more, it's the type of book it is, full of realistic outcomes to various situations.

My apologies ser.

It was a poor choice of words though.

[Dracarya]

Winterbreath, on 15 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

It seems strange to me that one would demand that a young girl who has already undergone severe physical, sexual and mental abuse and is in the power of an immoral predatory man, should suffer further for having a minor role in causing a series of events that would have happened anyway.

Assuming that all posters here are of sound mind, I shall have to blame an internalised misogyny.

Misogyny, if I'm correct, means the hatred of women by men. I don't see how this applies to the majority of people. Not only do you not know that all of these posters with this opinion are men, but I don't see what being a woman has got to do with it.

While I have no wish to see Sansa subjected to such abuse again, ever, that doesn't mean I want her to skip merrily back to Winterfell with an army and a husband who loves her and live happily ever after while everyone else is still going through hell. Her 'suffering' some more might be her inability to go home, which I don't think is so disgusting - many people are unable to go home. Again, don't see what being a woman has got to do with it.

[Winter's Knight]

Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Misogyny, if I'm correct, means the hatred of women by men. I don't see how this applies to the majority of people. Not only do you not know that all of these posters with this opinion are men, but I don't see what being a woman has got to do with it.

While I have no wish to see Sansa subjected to such abuse again, ever, that doesn't mean I want her to skip merrily back to Winterfell with an army and a husband who loves her and live happily ever after while everyone else is still going through hell. Her 'suffering' some more might be her inability to go home, which I don't think is so disgusting - many people are unable to go home. Again, don't see what being a woman has got to do with it.

Misogyny is the hatred of women or girls. According to feminist theory, misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.Misogyny has been characterized as a prominent feature of various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic.

The gender of a misogynistic person is irrelevant.

[Ser Hippie]

Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Glad you picked up on that, because Arya managed to escape and survive. Arya has always done whatever she needed to do to survive, Sansa, on the other hand, has always relied on others to help her.

Can't tell if you're serious here. Arya survives because

(1) Syrio sacrifices himself (or his face, if you're so inclined) to hold off Meryn Trant and the guards
(2) Yoren sees and rescues her and decides to take her to the Wall, arguably violating his oaths
(3) Yoren and the other recruits fight Amory Lorch
(4) Jaqen, super-assassin, helps seize Harrenhal and then gives her the coin which lets her get free passage and gifts to Braavos
(5) Sandor rescues/takes her from the BwB and the Red Wedding
(6) She's taken in by the Faceless Men.
(7) Gendy/Hot Pie are with her after Yoren, et. al. are killed as well.

On her own she killed the stable boy (with a fine blade given to her by someone else, with Arya trained by someone provided by her father) and the Bolton guard. She managed to ride from Sandor to Saltpans and got herself captured with Gendry/Lommy/Hot Pie. Not really a track record of someone not relying on others to help her.

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Quite frankly I was surprised that Sansa didn't take a more active role in trying to rid herself of Joffrey - I know I would have, if I were caught in that kind of situation. That's my point - she's never had to think for herself. She's not entirely to blame for that, but I can't help it if I find it frustrating.

And what active role should she have taken? You still haven't answered.

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Didn't LF post a guard to keep her safe, too, who stopped someone (was it Ser Shadrich? Apologies, I forget) from attempting to rape her? She's also being masqueraded as his daughter - he can hardly start coming onto her in public now. But again, I don't disagree that he poses a potential danger to her. I just hope she manages to get away before anything like that happens.

Marillion tried to rape her. Ser Shadrich is the hedge knight LF hires who was/is searching for Sansa for the reward (Brienne runs into him earlier in AFFC).

The point being, it's somewhat disconcerting to see you posting that being "rescued" by LF is another example of Sansa being taken care of by others when that glosses over the reality of the situation - she's still a prisoner at best.

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I think it's the motives that are being questioned more here, not the actions. IMHO, Ned always tried to do the right thing for other people; Sansa was only interested in what was right for her. This isn't necessarily a criticism - as I said in a previous post, most children of that age are selfish and only focused on their own wants and needs - but simply a statement of fact.

Isn't Ned's single-minded refusal to conduct himself in anything other than an up-front and honest way an egotistical response to the world? He insists on acting only in ways he's comfortable with regardless of the danger it places himself or his family/men in, that seems rather selfish. LF even recognizes that Ned knows what he must do but can't bring himself to ask for it (specifically, bribing the Watch).

Is Ned's selfishness leading up to his arrest - his refusal to bend his rules to save himself and his family (as well as others) - more palatable because it's cloaked in honor?

*edit*

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I never said that Sansa telling Cersei of Ned's intentions was the sole or the major cause for the events that came after, but they were probably the most personal and surprising.

What was surprising to me was Ned telling Cersei "lols going to tell Robert about you" and actually thinking she would leave. This is the same guy who hates the Lannisters and believes they murdered Jon Arryn and tried to kill Bran. Now he thinks Cersei is going to meekly run away? Doesn't make any sense at all.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 15 April 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[Golden Lady]

I'm just saying that I understand that she could not have done a lot. But I hoped she tried to kill him or something like that, something " dramatic", I don't know.

[Lord Ben]

Winterbreath, on 15 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

It seems strange to me that one would demand that a young girl who has already undergone severe physical, sexual and mental abuse and is in the power of an immoral predatory man, should suffer further for having a minor role in causing a series of events that would have happened anyway.

It's not certain it would have happened anyway.   Ned says to be ready by midday, she runs off in a huff, then the King dies and he summons the small council.   While in the process of this short meeting they get a messenger stating the King demands their immediate presence.   Had she not warned the Queen they perhaps would have not acted so quickly to demand his presence, possibly even long enough for the ship to leave keeping her and Arya and a good number of others safe from harm.   Had she not been taken they wouldn't have been near so bold without her as a hostage.  Doubly so once Jaime was captured.

Her being taken or not taken changes quite a bit.

[Winter's Knight]

Golden lady, on 15 April 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'm just saying that I understand that she could not have done a lot. But I hoped she tried to kill him or something like that, something " dramatic", I don't know.

She did try-she was ready to push Joff over the edge when he showed her Ned's severed head when the Hound came in between the two of them.

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

It's not certain it would have happened anyway.   Ned says to be ready by midday, she runs off in a huff, then the King dies and he summons the small council.   While in the process of this short meeting they get a messenger stating the King demands their immediate presence.   Had she not warned the Queen they perhaps would have not acted so quickly to demand his presence, possibly even long enough for the ship to leave keeping her and Arya and a good number of others safe from harm.   Had she not been taken they wouldn't have been near so bold without her as a hostage.  Doubly so once Jaime was captured.

Her being taken or not taken changes quite a bit.

Ned confronted Cersei when there were three more days left till the ship he hired could sail.
I know Cersei isn't considered the sharpest tack in the box but that is a lot of time to plan in.

Edited by Winterbreath, 15 April 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[Dracarya]

Winterbreath, on 15 April 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Misogyny is the hatred of women or girls. According to feminist theory, misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.Misogyny has been characterized as a prominent feature of various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic.

The gender of a misogynistic person is irrelevant.

Thanks for quoting wikipedia at me. I still don't agree, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me.

Ser Hippie, on 15 April 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Can't tell if you're serious here. Arya survives because

(1) Syrio sacrifices himself (or his face, if you're so inclined) to hold off Meryn Trant and the guards
(2) Yoren sees and rescues her and decides to take her to the Wall, arguably violating his oaths
(3) Yoren and the other recruits fight Amory Lorch
(4) Jaqen, super-assassin, helps seize Harrenhal and then gives her the coin which lets her get free passage and gifts to Braavos
(5) Sandor rescues/takes her from the BwB and the Red Wedding
(6) She's taken in by the Faceless Men.
(7) Gendy/Hot Pie are with her after Yoren, et. al. are killed as well.

On her own she killed the stable boy (with a fine blade given to her by someone else, with Arya trained by someone provided by her father) and the Bolton guard. She managed to ride from Sandor to Saltpans and got herself captured with Gendry/Lommy/Hot Pie. Not really a track record of someone not relying on others to help her.

If I wasn't serious, I wouldn't waste my time replying to you at 2am. There's no need to be rude, we've quite enough of that on here.

She never relied on anyone. She didn't sit back and wait for someone to rescue her. If Yoren had grabbed Sansa and chopped off her hair in order to disguise her, I don't think she would have gone very willingly, do you? No, she has to have a fairytale escape. Arya is perfectly capable of making decisions and taking care of herself, as she has proven time and time again. As for your argument about Arya being trained by someone else, I guess we should just discard every knight in the kingdom then, as they all learnt from someone else, did they not? And as for being given Needle, unless you're an armourer, I don't see how you can make your own sword. Everything Arya has been 'given', she has earned, in my book. As for Yoren and the other recruits fighting Amory Lorch, they were all under attack. Didn't Yoren know that they were, in fact, after Gendry, not Arya? If so, he was hardly just protecting her. If not, again, he wasn't just protecting her. He was protecting the law of the land, that your crimes are wiped out once you're given to the NW.

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And what active role should she have taken? You still haven't answered.

I don't recall you asking me, but there's been a lot to answer and it's late, so I apologise. I think she could have - not should have, because I understand the danger she was in and the possible implications of her acting - sided with Tyrion, asked people to make themselves clear, such as the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, and recognised what they were up to and so joined them, gone with the Hound... hell, she could have picked up a sword or some poison and killed Joffrey herself, but she didn't, she waited for someone else to save her. I don't know about you, but I would have thought more about getting myself away from such a brute than pleasing him and making it easier for myself.

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Marillion tried to rape her. Ser Shadrich is the hedge knight LF hires who was/is searching for Sansa for the reward (Brienne runs into him earlier in AFFC).

So he did, thank you.

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Isn't Ned's single-minded refusal to conduct himself in anything other than an up-front and honest way an egotistical response to the world? He insists on acting only in ways he's comfortable with regardless of the danger it places himself or his family/men in, that seems rather selfish. LF even recognizes that Ned knows what he must do but can't bring himself to ask for it (specifically, bribing the Watch).

Is Ned's selfishness leading up to his arrest - his refusal to bend his rules to save himself and his family (as well as others) - more palatable because it's cloaked in honor?

No, and I believe I said before that I won't try to defend all of his actions. I simply said that I understand his motives, not that I think what he did was right, or should I say, the best way to go about things. I don't think he was selfish, though I can perhaps see why it might be perceived that way - I don't think acting in the way you believe to be right is selfish at all. As an example, all the 'heretics' who were burned at the stake for not practicing Catholicism - were they wrong to die still believing in what they believed in? Their death as a heretic would have left a stain on their family too, and perhaps even put them in danger of the same treatment. Can we judge people on continuing to believe what they believe in their hearts to be the right thing, and acting upon it? I'm not sure.

[Raksha the Demon]

Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Glad you picked up on that, because Arya managed to escape and survive. Arya has always done whatever she needed to do to survive, Sansa, on the other hand, has always relied on others to help her. I'm not suggesting that I expected Sansa to pick up a sword and kill everyone in the throne room, escaping on the back of a dragon, I was simply saying that her lack of ability to do anything for herself annoys me. Quite frankly I was surprised that Sansa didn't take a more active role in trying to rid herself of Joffrey - I know I would have, if I were caught in that kind of situation. That's my point - she's never had to think for herself. She's not entirely to blame for that, but I can't help it if I find it frustrating.



I'm not arguing against LF's disgusting sexual desires for her, I was simply pointing out that, of all the people in the world, probably the one person who would care about keeping her safe whisks her away to the Eyrie, one of the safest castles in the realm - by that, I mean difficult to attack from the outside, not the potential dangers from the inside. Didn't LF post a guard to keep her safe, too, who stopped someone (was it Ser Shadrich? Apologies, I forget) from attempting to rape her? She's also being masqueraded as his daughter - he can hardly start coming onto her in public now. But again, I don't disagree that he poses a potential danger to her. I just hope she manages to get away before anything like that happens.



I think it's the motives that are being questioned more here, not the actions. IMHO, Ned always tried to do the right thing for other people; Sansa was only interested in what was right for her. This isn't necessarily a criticism - as I said in a previous post, most children of that age are selfish and only focused on their own wants and needs - but simply a statement of fact.
I never said that Sansa telling Cersei of Ned's intentions was the sole or the major cause for the events that came after, but they were probably the most personal and surprising.

Arya managed to escape King's Landing because Yoren literally grabbed her and plunked her into his group of Night's Watch, cutting her hair and telling her she was a 'boy' to hide her identity.  Before Yoren seized Arya, she was starving in the streets.  After Yoren died, she still had friends with her, as dangerous a situation as she was in; and for much of her journey, Arya had companionship and help, at least in day-to-day survival.  If not for the Hound, Arya would have probably died at the Twins - not that I blame her, but as a child, she did not have the maturity to understand that her mother could not be saved at that point and that her attempt to find her would have gotten her killed.  Arya made it to Braavos because of Jaquen's coin; it's true that she earned his friendship, but his patronage enabled her to leave Westeros and find a physically safe haven.

What could an 11-12-year-old constantly guarded girl do to hurt or kill a king who was also constantly guarded?  If Sansa had attacked Joffrey, pushed him off a battlement or whatever, she would have been horribly killed herself if she didn't die with him (which was something she'd considered in AGOT).  It's not like Sansa had either knowledge of poisons or access to them, either.  

If Littlefinger had really cared about keeping Sansa safe, he would never have conspired with the Queen of Thorns to frame her for complicity in Joffrey's death.  She's now Public Enemy #2 of the Iron Throne, thanks to Littlefinger.   LF forced Sansa to stay hidden and in his care, since she had no one else who could hide her, for an indeterminate period; a potentially extremely dangerous predicament for her.  

While Sansa is more passive than Arya (who is sometimes too impulsive), she has acted on her own initiative - speaking up in defiance of Joffrey's orders to save Ser Dontos, taking charge of the frightened women in Maegor's Keep after Cersei ran out on them during the Battle of the Blackwater (as well as assessing Lancel's condition and getting help for him) - no one told Sansa to any of that.  She was even surprised at herself when she spoke up for Ser Dontos and when she ordered medical help for Lancel.  

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 15 April 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Lord Ben]

Winterbreath, on 15 April 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Ned confronted Cersei when there were three more days left till the ship he hired could sail.
I know Cersei isn't considered the sharpest tack in the box but that is a lot of time to plan in.

And she waited without striking for those three days, not doing anything until immediately after she got the tip from Sansa that it was time to make your move or let them leave town.  There is no proof either way obviously, but GRRM chose to include that info of her going to the Queen so it either means something or is mere filler.

[Lady Kraken]

Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I think she could have - not should have, because I understand the danger she was in and the possible implications of her acting - sided with Tyrion, asked people to make themselves clear, such as the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, and recognised what they were up to and so joined them, gone with the Hound... hell, she could have picked up a sword or some poison and killed Joffrey herself, but she didn't, she waited for someone else to save her. I don't know about you, but I would have thought more about getting myself away from such a brute than pleasing him and making it easier for myself.

Just a quick comment. I would argue that in ACoK/ASoS Sansa did take an active role in her escape. Instead of waiting for someone to save her, she made the decision to go to the godswood to see who wrote her the note, even though this could have hurt her. She actively meets with Dontos, decides to trust him as Arya decides to trust Yoren, and they begin to work on her escape. When presented with another avenue of escape, the Tyrells, she actively decides to stop chirping out her courtesies and tells them the true nature of Joffrey. She then actively accepts the betrothal to Willas. Later, she actively accepts to wear the hairnet and take off from the wedding. I think it's a bit off to say she just waited for someone to save her; she participated in her escape. Littlefinger didn't carry her out of there.

Yes, she didn't plan any of this herself, but she wasn't completely passive either. She made decisions that could have potentially backfired instead of just accepting her confinement.

[Winter's Knight]

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

And she waited without striking for those three days, not doing anything until immediately after she got the tip from Sansa that it was time to make your move or let them leave town.  There is no proof either way obviously, but GRRM chose to include that info of her going to the Queen so it either means something or is mere filler.

He's stated in an SSM that Sansa's telling/not telling made no difference and the fan vitriol against her surprised him.

[Ser Hippie]

Fire&Blood, on 15 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

She never relied on anyone. She didn't sit back and wait for someone to rescue her.

First, I was actually only being snarky and didn't intend to be rude. so I apologize if I caused offense - sarcasm doesn't translate well sometimes. That being said, this simply isn't true, Arya doesn't proactively save herself, others do it for her (although she does get to stab a couple of people, for whatever that's worth).

Arya was saved because Syrio actively interposed himself between her and the guards, and because Yoren actively grabbed her, etc. Arya got a lot of lucky breaks and helpful people with her (rescued by the BwB group that happens to have Harwin in it, etc). Trying to claim there is a stark (pun definitely not intended) dichotomy between Sansa always relying on people and Arya never relying on them simply doesn't match the text.

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If Yoren had grabbed Sansa and chopped off her hair in order to disguise her, I don't think she would have gone very willingly, do you? No, she has to have a fairytale escape.

I'm not sure why you think Sansa would turn down a chance to escape because it wasn't a fairytale, since she came to see the very unromantic Ser Dontos as her hero.

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Arya is perfectly capable of making decisions and taking care of herself, as she has proven time and time again.

Especially when saved by the likes of the former First Sword of Braavos, the Night's Watch, the Brotherhood without Banners, Sandor Clegane and the Faceless Men.

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As for your argument about Arya being trained by someone else, I guess we should just discard every knight in the kingdom then, as they all learnt from someone else, did they not? And as for being given Needle, unless you're an armourer, I don't see how you can make your own sword. Everything Arya has been 'given', she has earned, in my book.  As for Yoren and the other recruits fighting Amory Lorch, they were all under attack. Didn't Yoren know that they were, in fact, after Gendry, not Arya? If so, he was hardly just protecting her. If not, again, he wasn't just protecting her. He was protecting the law of the land, that your crimes are wiped out once you're given to the NW.

You're misunderstanding or misreading my point completely. You claimed Sansa is a passive, almost willing, victim while Arya actively saves herself. The fact of the matter is that Arya is gifted a number of protecters and other figures that help her escape, she most definitely does not escape on her own. Be it Syrio Forel or Jaqen H'ghar or Yoren, there's always someone else looking after her.

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I don't recall you asking me, but there's been a lot to answer and it's late, so I apologise. I think she could have - not should have, because I understand the danger she was in and the possible implications of her acting - sided with Tyrion,

Sided with Tyrion how, and why? She doesn't know him apart from the fact that he's a Lannister and it's not like Tyrion is actively trying to help her beyond being polite. He's not going out of his way to send her home or anything.

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asked people to make themselves clear, such as the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, and recognised what they were up to and so joined them, gone with the Hound...

How's Sansa supposed to know that Ser Dontos is working for LF? Apparently not a single other person in King's Landing figured it out, even Varys from what we can tell. As for leaving with the Hound, is it really that surprising given the circumstances (mid-battle, he's drunk and possibly thinking of raping her)?

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hell, she could have picked up a sword or some poison and killed Joffrey herself, but she didn't, she waited for someone else to save her.

She did think about killing him and the Hound stopped her. In any case, how do you supposed Sansa would acquire and use a sword or poison, as she's trained at neither? It's sort of silly to suggest it would be reasonable to expect someone to act wholly out of character like that.

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I don't know about you, but I would have thought more about getting myself away from such a brute than pleasing him and making it easier for myself.

Sure, if it was remotely logical or plausible to escape on your own. Sansa recognized her hopes lay in others (Dontos, the Tyrells, being ransomed), not in planning to cut off Joffrey's head with a dinner knife and then sprout wings to fly to safety. If she was as passive as you claim, why would she even bother dealing with Ser Dontos and his plans?

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No, and I believe I said before that I won't try to defend all of his actions. I simply said that I understand his motives, not that I think what he did was right, or should I say, the best way to go about things. I don't think he was selfish, though I can perhaps see why it might be perceived that way - I don't think acting in the way you believe to be right is selfish at all. As an example, all the 'heretics' who were burned at the stake for not practicing Catholicism - were they wrong to die still believing in what they believed in? Their death as a heretic would have left a stain on their family too, and perhaps even put them in danger of the same treatment. Can we judge people on continuing to believe what they believe in their hearts to be the right thing, and acting upon it? I'm not sure.

Yet you and others judge Sansa but not Ned?

The fact of the matter is that Ned was willing to sacrifice his honor to save his daughters at one point (at his execution) yet was completely unwilling to bend his rules at any other time, when he could have saved the lives of his contingent in King's Landing and many others as well. Ned's so caught up in his obsession with doing the honorable thing that he fails to question the intelligence or 'rightness' of what he's doing.

And, again, Ned is the one who thinks Cersei poisoned Jon Arryn and that Tyrion tried to kill Bran yet he thinks he can scare Cersei away because that's what eases his conscience because he doesn't have to get his hands dirty. Why aren't people accusing Ned of betraying his house by putting his personal honor above the pragmatic demands of reality?

Edited by Ser Hippie, 15 April 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Keep it civil and do not discuss each other. Keep focused on the arguments only. Finally, any further whiff I get of someone advocating any kind of abuse (especially sexual) for Sansa is going to get a long ban. So choose your words carefully or, better still, keep those thoughts to yourself. Thank you. [/mod]

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 15 April 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Castel]

Quote

Isn't Ned's single-minded refusal to conduct himself in anything other than an up-front and honest way an egotistical response to the world? He insists on acting only in ways he's comfortable with regardless of the danger it places himself or his family/men in, that seems rather selfish. LF even recognizes that Ned knows what he must do but can't bring himself to ask for it (specifically, bribing the Watch).

Is Ned's selfishness leading up to his arrest - his refusal to bend his rules to save himself and his family (as well as others) - more palatable because it's cloaked in honor?

Oh god this. Why is it that when Ned, who was in an infinitely better position to do something, fails to act or acts disastrously based on selfish reasons he gets a pass for being honorable but when Sansa doesn't act in a way that would lead to Joffrey killing her she gets told off for not acting. She was in Joffrey's power, what the hell was she supposed to do? What would shouting have achieved? Ned deliberately chose to place honor before reason yet no one jumps on him yet Sansa who is powerless gets all sorts of heat.

Giive me possible escape methods for Sansa and then we'll talk. All I hear here is "I would have gotten away" tell me HOW. Meaningless statements like that are kind of offensive really, because it's victim blaming. Tell me how exactly she was supposed to get out.

Edited by Castel, 15 April 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[The King in the South]

Lord Ben, on 15 April 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

She specifically mentions feeling "As wicked as Arya" when defying her Father and going to the Queen.  She knew it was a bad thing to do and did it anyway.

She "should" like she deserves it or she "should" like that's where the story is going?   She was taken away by one of the most manipulative figures in Westeros and is in the process of being used as his pawn in a few of his schemes.   I don't see any easy way out of it that makes sense in the story so she "should" (as in I predict it will happen) suffer some more.

If my wife picks up a Nickolas Sparks book to read you can be virtually assured someone will fall in love and also experience immense sadness.   It doesn't mean she thinks that the person deserves to die in a car accident or of cancer or whatever, only that's the type of story she recognizes she's reading.    I recognize that GRRM isn't writing a story where LF kidnaps the princess and brings her to his tower where she doesn't suffer at all and then is rescued by someone and nothing bad happens.   It would feel cheap if Ser Loras climbs through her bedroom window and saves her, she "should" suffer some more, it's the type of book it is, full of realistic outcomes to various situations.

I'm not saying she didn't know it was wrong or anything like that, just that betrayal is too strong of a word. Betrayal implies maliciousness or rather a lack of emotion, and I don't think Sansa emplified either of those.
I guess what I mean here is that I'm not arguing based on the Webster dictionary definition of betrayal, but rather how we view it in ethical or moral concepts. (because I mean if we base it on Webster definitions, arya has technically abused Sansa, stuff like that)

Regarding your second point, I misunderstood, I thought you were saying something like "Sansa is evil, she needs to be punished". My apologies, I agree with you on this.

[Lord Ben]

Xray the Enforcer, on 15 April 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

[mod] Keep it civil and do not discuss each other. Keep focused on the arguments only. Finally, any further whiff I get of someone advocating any kind of abuse (especially sexual) for Sansa is going to get a long ban. So choose your words carefully or, better still, keep those thoughts to yourself. Thank you. [/mod]

Are there rules somewhere I can read?   I only see things about going after other posters and etiquette that way.  I'd like to know what the guidelines are there and where predicting a storyline becomes a "whiff" of advocating for abuse so I can avoid a ban for having a forbidden prediction.

[Apple Martini]

Ned really had no one to blame but himself for what happened. Should Sansa have told Cersei he was planning to send them away? No. Did she cause anything that wouldn't have happened anyway because of Ned's own actions? No.

Remember how Sansa was raised. She was brought up to be a mannerly lady, to be courteous, told that she would marry a lord or a knight of some kind and be devoted and subservient to him and taught to trust authority. Her behavior as a proper lady was rewarded and reinforced. For people to want to punish her for merely behaving in the way she'd been taught is kind of ridiculous. It's basically saying, "Do this and this and this, believe this and this, but if you act that way and something bad happens, you deserve total ridicule and maybe even death."

I also think that intent is important here, too. Was Sansa's intent malicious? No, it wasn't. She wanted to prevent a rift and to stay in the capital with her betrothed. She demonstrated loyalty to her betrothed as she had no doubt been taught to do.