176 replies to this topic

[Free Northman]

Ok, I just checked on wikipedia, and she's only 6 foot 3 inches tall.

Jeepers, on screen she looked around 6 foot 8 at least. Must have been trick photography, then.

[Carne]

When she was standing next to Catelyn and says "I am no Lady" they used some forced perspective, plus they were both standing on an a slope, so Brienne appears bigger. But other than that she is as tall as she appears on screen.

[Happy Ent]

I found this nice drawing of B & C: http://maidoftarth.t...at-n-brienne-by

and another: http://ant-tea.devia...rienne-45780654

[Dragon greyscale]

ChromeWeasel, on 21 April 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Actually Catlyn is very practical when it comes to looks. She makes a very big note of that when evaluating the young attractive Frey bride for her brother. The fact that she specifically calls out Brienne as ugly and pitiful shows exactly what it says. Brienne is an ugly woman. This is reiterated universally by anyone with a perspective on Brienne. Her teeth are crooked, she is ungainly, she is extremely un-feminine, her hair is a tangle, her lips are swollen, and so on. The one thing she has going for her are her nice eyes. Other than that, there's nothing pleasant to look at.

In theory, beauty may be in the eye of the beholder. But in reality, people largely agree on looks. People may disagree on who looks better out of two attractive people, but people dont tend to disagree on whether someone is flat-out ugly or not. If you want to pretend that Brienne in the books is really a decent looking or plain looking woman, that's your perogative. But you're going against everything in the text. Not only does nothing support your stance, but every bit of evidence we have goes against what you're saying.

Okay, we're clearly approaching this topic from different angles (which is totally fine btw). I don't like to rely on 'evidence' when discussing literature. Simply put, Brienne is a fictional character and I don't find it very interesting how ugly she "really" is because she isn't "real". We only have various subjective descriptions of her. Virtually every character thinks she is ugly but that isn't proof of anything real. It tells us how most characters experience her.
The point for me is how people respond to a supposedly ugly person. When Catlyn wonders whether there is anything worse than an ugly woman, I cringe because it's a painful observation that extends beyond the specific situation of Brienne. It's a universal statement about how cruel the importance of appearance is. Jaime warming up to Brienne is a more optimistic message that tells me that appearance really isn't everything. Again, it's about how people deal with the paradigms of beauty instead of beauty itself.
To respond to you directly: how can the tv show ever convey Jaime's changing view to the viewer if Brienne is and remains "flat-out ugly" throughout the show. She needs to gain some redeeming qualities in order for the viewer to see her attraction. In your definite description, that wouldn't be possible. We also need to see that someone ugly can be beautiful in his or her own way (which makes the supposed self-evidence of ugliness a lot more complex) This is what I meant with the nuance and subtlety of written text as opposed to the visual medium.
And yes, I want to "pretend" that Brienne is plain looking. I don't know if that's supposed to be a derogatory statement, but we're all pretending here. It's fiction.

[Happy Ent]

Dragon greyscale, on 22 April 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

The point for me is how people respond to a supposedly ugly person. When Catlyn wonders whether there is anything worse than an ugly woman, I cringe because it's a painful observation that extends beyond the specific situation of Brienne.

Everybody but Catelyn reacts to Brienne with derision. Catelyn, instead, treats her with compassion. Her thoughts are: “Pity filled Catelyn’s heart. Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?”

[TheWrongKindOfSnow]

I'm surprised by the number of posters in this thread who feel Brienne looks as she should according to the books. Regardless of the books being written from various characters' povs and the argument that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it was quite apparant that she was ugly by all conventional standards. I also expected her to be more muscular or masculine in her build than her tv depiction.

I've only seen her first episode so far, and couldn't really judge from her appearance in that, but I hope she'll do as Tyrion has done, and be such an interesting portrayal that her lack of ugliness doesn't matter. I'm not sure though; Tyrion's fears of (real and imagined) prejudice still make sense, because despite not being ugly he's still a dwarf - the central feature of his insecurities. Brienne is tall, but she's not a literal giant, and the exclusion and insults she experiences that have been so crucial to forming her nature may not seem to have any real basis if she's merely tall and plain, as oppose to truly ugly. Perhaps they can play up her deviation from expected feminine roles and/or her social awkwardness to account for how shunned she is instead?

[boojam]

ChromeWeasel, on 21 April 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Not only does nothing support your stance, but every bit of evidence we have goes against what you're saying.

That is wrong.
What Jamie has to say about her in Storm of Swords varies, but refutes what you are saying.

[Baitac]

I thought that not only was she perfectly cast, but that she acted as I thought Brienne would act. Very serious, not very talkative, formal demeanor, and totally devoted to Renly. Excellently done.

[winterWarg]

iheartseverus, on 15 April 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Honestly, must we define Every. Single. Female. In. The. Series. by how 'hot' she is?  Is this the 1960s?  Asha is a strong, smart, fierce PIRATE.  Perhaps 'all the men that she seduced in the book' found that... hot?  

There is a chapter in ACOK that describes Esgred/Asha/Yara and his initial impressions of her. Suffice to say that anyone reading that little piece is right to expect Asha/Yara to be a hottie, disrepectful to women or not.
I admit the Gemma doesn't look the part but she certainly knows how to rock the whole attitude. love her acting!

[Queen_in_the_North]

Given that this is a TV show and on HBO, they managed to make her "television plain", and that's as good as you were going to get. I didn't really care myself whether she was ugly enough or not, I think it was an awesome badass portrayal.

[Le Cygne]

Dragon greyscale, on 20 April 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

Remember, GRRM deliberately uses POV's as a literary strategy. And as has been mentioned by others: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thus, the problem is that the books describe clear "beholders" with regard to Brienne's looks. Catelyn's view clearly reflects her own ideas on femininity while Jaime's changing views tells us he's falling in love. These writing strategies are restricted to the medium of the novels. In the TV show, the pov on the looks of characters is solely from the viewer. There's no room for nuance and subtlety with regard to appearance.
I don't want to sound pedantic but following this logic, the way we experience GC's appearance (too ugly, too tall etc.) tells us more about ourselves than about GC.

Dragon greyscale, on 22 April 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

And yes, I want to "pretend" that Brienne is plain looking. I don't know if that's supposed to be a derogatory statement, but we're all pretending here. It's fiction.

I love all your comments on this...

Edited by Le Cygne, 01 March 2013 - 10:35 PM.

[David Selig]

Quote

Arya said her father and Jon Snow called her pretty - but she said they were the only ones who ever did.  She said nobody else thought she was pretty, they called her Arya Horseface.  Arya agreed with them.

Catelyn told Arya she could be pretty, all she had to do was wash and brush her hair and dress better.

Quote

rooked teeth (not necessarily bad, models and actresses considered pretty have them, too), and broken nose (ditto).

Crooked teeth and broken nose are universally  bad things when it comes to beauty. Sure, some models get away with mild cases of crooked teeth, but it's still considered a flaw.

[Frumpus]

BlackTalon, on 17 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

I wouldn´t really call it a cheap trick, yes, she is much closer to the camery than Catelyn plus they are walking up a slightly inclined path so brienne is also slightly higher up, but the cameraman does not really try to conceal that.

BTW Georges´s description of her height is pretty inconsistent. Robert Baratheon is allegedly 6'6''. Renly is described as just as tall and at the tourney Cat notes how Brienne looks DOWN at Renly, being a good hand taller.

On the other hand, during their journey through the riverlands Jamie describes her at some point as "six feet of freckled diapproval looking down at him"

Agreed. People can't and shouldn't rely on George's quote about Brienne's height. They should go by what is said in the books, and if she is described as slightly shorter than the Hound (who is 7'5-7'6), then she should be near seven feet, not just three inches taller than six.

Not that it matters, as they have managed to make her look much bigger and taller in most scenes and I am perfectly happy with that.

[lannistergold]

It's television, so they never were going to cast plain actresses. Even if Brienne is too good-looking for the old-maid story to sit right, she has the exact manner that I imagined. I dig Ygritte being hot - if she's going to be a love interest off the bat (as opposed to someone Jon had to have sex with for cover, at first), she has to be the sort of girl that one would break vows for. I loved Asha in the books, and I love Yara (a better pirate name) here.

[rustypaladin]

Free Northman, on 22 April 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Ok, I just checked on wikipedia, and she's only 6 foot 3 inches tall.

Jeepers, on screen she looked around 6 foot 8 at least. Must have been trick photography, then.

They explain in the episode commentary that they did used the elevation of the ground and perspective to make her appear taller.

I thought she was casted wonderfully IMO. She was much more 'homely' in the book, but then again so was Tyrion...

Edited by rustypaladin, 08 March 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[BlackTalon]

Frumpus, on 13 July 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

slightly shorter than the Hound (who is 7'5-7'6), then she should be near seven feet,

What gives you the idea that the Hound was 7'6''?  No way he is that big. He is maybe 6'5'' or 6'6'', which would make him really big even in our time. In the quasi medieval setting of Westeros with lots and lots of malnourished undersized peasants he would have been a veritable giant even at that height.

That said, Martin does tend to mix up his numbers ... King Robert is described as being 6'6'', Renly as being pretty much just as tall. At the tourney scene where Brienne beat Loras Martin wrote that Renly had to look UP at Brienne who was a hand's breadth taller than he was. And yet, in another scene Jaime describes her as "six feet of freckled fury looking down at him" or something like that. A bit inconsistent.

That said, none of that stuff really matters at the end of the day

Edited by BlackTalon, 16 March 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[Currawong]

As I noted before, GRRM has been deeply involved in all the casting decisions.  He stated here http://grrm.livejour...com/227044.html  :-

“The day the first batch of auditions went up for the role, we looked at a dozen actresses who were reading for Brienne and one actress who WAS Brienne. Gwendoline gave a great reading, and her look was just perfect. No, when she auditioned, she did not look she does in the photo above. She came in looking… well, like Brienne.”

I think her performances in Season 2 with both Catelyn and Jaime show that they made an excellent choice for the role.  

Edited by Currawong, 16 March 2013 - 09:34 PM.