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[Book Spoilers] Remember: The Queen mustn't know!


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#1 Envie

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:41 PM

Another absolutely brilliant scene - one of my favorites of a fantastic episode this week.

What did you think? Did you love the way Tyrion pulled off his little 'test' of loyalty to see which of the three men would run squealing to Cersei first?

Littlefinger's eyes lighting up at the thought of Harrenhal was by far the best moment clinching the scene. His greed was so obvious you could almost see him wipe some drool away as he tried to play it cool. HAH!

#2 Oberyn King

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:19 AM

That was a masterpiece. Brilliant work of production and acting.

#3 Mulled Wino

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:28 AM

Varys would have never in a million years believed that Tyrion would send Myrcella off to the Iron Islands, other than that, great scene and cinematography.

#4 Thorny Issues

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:36 AM

Varys would have never in a million years believed that Tyrion would send Myrcella off to the Iron Islands, other than that, great scene and cinematography.


Actually, my reading of the Varys bit was that he didn't believe it for a second, and guessed what Tyrion was up to. He was then able to make sure he appeared to be Tyrion's 'friend'. I hope that's what was intended, because if so it just makes it all the more interesting.

#5 Independent George

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:40 AM

The best part was the way Varys started the scene by gleefully saying how much he loved it when conversations began that way, and then fell into a look of disgust & disappointment when he heard Tyrion say "Theon Greyjoy". I interpreted that as him immediately figuring out what game Tyrion was playing, and being almost insulted that anyone could think he would fall for it. If I recall correctly, when they cut to Tyrion, he had an odd look on his face, too, as if he realized Varys was on to him. This is all subject to interpretation, but I'm pretty sure that's how the scene was played.

I friggin' love Varys. And Tyrion. But we see so little of Varys, that his scenes always stick out to me.

#6 Mulled Wino

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

Actually, my reading of the Varys bit was that he didn't believe it for a second, and guessed what Tyrion was up to. He was then able to make sure he appeared to be Tyrion's 'friend'. I hope that's what was intended, because if so it just makes it all the more interesting.


Varys saw right through it-I agree, my post was more of a comment on how Tyrion's plan was flawed. The Robert Arryn story was believablke, Theon, not believable.

Tyrion could have suggested a Tommen bethrothal if he was running out of options for Myrcella.

#7 Francisco R. Fonseca

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

This was one of my favorrite scenes in the book and I did wonder how they'd do it and it was awesome how they cut from Pycelle to Varys to Littlefinger. I wasn't sure how I pictured it, done for a show as opposed to my mind's eye in the book but anything I could've thought was surpassed. I loved the scene in Pycelle's room too....my favorite part of last night's show.

#8 chris999

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

Varys would have never in a million years believed that Tyrion would send Myrcella off to the Iron Islands, other than that, great scene and cinematography.


I think they did a great job. It was an important scene that took a few hundred pages in the books to complete, but the got it out of the way in 3 minutes, leaving us with more screen time for the other events that happen this season. I am glad that they didnt waste a whole episode to do it, and it still came out really good.

Cant ask for any more than that.

#9 Arkash

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:53 AM

I think proposing Myrcella to Garlan Tyrell would have been more credible for Varys, but I prefer them using Theon, so we all know Varys didnt believe a word of it !

#10 sennahoj

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:00 PM

The scene was executed quite well, apart from the change in the marriage alliances. As I wrote in another thread, I don't quite understand why they would change Tommen being sent to Dorne as a ward into offering Myrcella to Theon. I don't think it makes Tyrion's plot easier to understand, plus it makes him look a bit stupid. Both the actual marriage alliance (Myrcella+Trystane Martell) as well as the red herring for Littlefinger (Myrcella+Robert Arryn) were sound choices and both believable, whereas the one thrown at Varys was so obviously a ruse as to be embarassing. Theon is for all Tyrion knows a staunch Stark supporter with no tendency to betray Robb not with any leverage over his father. The Iron Islands are too far away for their fleet to make a difference to the double Baratheon threat from the sea and the south to King's Landing. The Martells and the Arryns both could bring their might to bear against either Renly or Stannis respectively, therefore both alliances would make sense. Littlefinger surely thinks so, at least he seems to buy into the scheme. Fostering Tommen at Dorne would also make sense and Varys could be made to believe that Tyrion favours this option, but the Myrcella+Theon plot seems to far fetched for as skilled a player as Varys to buy into it, more so making Varys believe someone as smart as Tyrion would favour that alliance.
Seeing how Tyrion regards Varys as his most skilled and dangerous opponent at the game of thrones, it surprises me that the writers went for that change. It makes Tyrion appear a bit stupid to think he could fool Varys that easily.

Any thoughts on why they opted for that change?
I know it seems like only a minor thing, but it bothers me.

#11 Mulled Wino

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:01 PM

I think they did a great job. It was an important scene that took a few hundred pages in the books to complete, but the got it out of the way in 3 minutes, leaving us with more screen time for the other events that happen this season. I am glad that they didnt waste a whole episode to do it, and it still came out really good.

Cant ask for any more than that.


To me, this was the best episode of S2 BY FAR. not even close, so I'm nitpicking a little bit. The story he told Varys was implausible as far as a piece of a brilliant plan, but did I let it detract from my viewing pleasure- most definitely not.

#12 Mulled Wino

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:03 PM

The scene was executed quite well, apart from the change in the marriage alliances. As I wrote in another thread, I don't quite understand why they would change Tommen being sent to Dorne as a ward into offering Myrcella to Theon. I don't think it makes Tyrion's plot easier to understand, plus it makes him look a bit stupid. Both the actual marriage alliance (Myrcella+Trystane Martell) as well as the red herring for Littlefinger (Myrcella+Robert Arryn) were sound choices and both believable, whereas the one thrown at Varys was so obviously a ruse as to be embarassing. Theon is for all Tyrion knows a staunch Stark supporter with no tendency to betray Robb not with any leverage over his father. The Iron Islands are too far away for their fleet to make a difference to the double Baratheon threat from the sea and the south to King's Landing. The Martells and the Arryns both could bring their might to bear against either Renly or Stannis respectively, therefore both alliances would make sense. Littlefinger surely thinks so, at least he seems to buy into the scheme. Fostering Tommen at Dorne would also make sense and Varys could be made to believe that Tyrion favours this option, but the Myrcella+Theon plot seems to far fetched for as skilled a player as Varys to buy into it, more so making Varys believe someone as smart as Tyrion would favour that alliance.
Seeing how Tyrion regards Varys as his most skilled and dangerous opponent at the game of thrones, it surprises me that the writers went for that change. It makes Tyrion appear a bit stupid to think he could fool Varys that easily.

Any thoughts on why they opted for that change?
I know it seems like only a minor thing, but it bothers me.


Not to mention that Tyrion actually speculates that the proposal might tempt the Greyjoy's to invade the North when that was clearly a blindside to everyone, especially at Kings Landing, in the book.

#13 _Oberyn_

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:06 PM

I think proposing Myrcella to Garlan Tyrell would have been more credible for Varys, but I prefer them using Theon, so we all know Varys didnt believe a word of it !


Tyrells made their choise. And a queen in the family is more lucrative then the sister of a disputed king.

#14 Iron Captain

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:08 PM

I think proposing Myrcella to Garlan Tyrell would have been more credible for Varys, but I prefer them using Theon, so we all know Varys didnt believe a word of it !


Do you mean Willas? Garlan is married. But either way I think at that point it was a given that the Tyrells were behind Renly (Loras directly behind him, oh!) so a treaty probably couldn't be brokered there.

Does anyone know if the actor who played Shagga is gone? It would appear so since he isn't in the Pycelle scene.

#15 David Selig

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:11 PM

Does anyone know if the actor who played Shagga is gone? It would appear so since he isn't in the Pycelle scene.

He wasn't? Who was the clansman in the scene then? I thought he was Shagga, given the talk about giving members to the goats...

#16 sennahoj

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:14 PM

Not to mention that Tyrion actually speculates that the proposal might tempt the Greyjoy's to invade the North when that was clearly a blindside to everyone, especially at Kings Landing, in the book.


It actually diminishes a lot of the surprise effect of the actual Ironborn attack, because Tyrion at least has already considered it on the show. I guess it ties in nicer with the scenes on the Iron Islands and the impending offensive. That in turn makes Robb all the more the fool to have sent Theon to Pyke in the first place, because an Ironborn attack on the North is, apparently on the show, a scenario that should be considered. Considering this possibility actually builds up the Ironborns as more of a threat than they are perceived as in the books.

#17 Iron Captain

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:14 PM

Oh I expect that was Shagga (although I don't think he mentioned him by name), but that wasn't the same actor as last season. The actor from last season had a deep intimidating voice, this one sounded like a dumb mountain oaf.

#18 David Selig

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:26 PM

Oh I expect that was Shagga (although I don't think he mentioned him by name), but that wasn't the same actor as last season. The actor from last season had a deep intimidating voice, this one sounded like a dumb mountain oaf.

I see. Didn't notice it, to be honest, even though I was rewatching some episodes from last season which featured Shagga yesterday.

Anyway, this whole segment was very well done, Tyrion's "make do" comment towards Shagga had me laughing out loud.

#19 Mulled Wino

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:31 PM

It actually diminishes a lot of the surprise effect of the actual Ironborn attack, because Tyrion at least has already considered it on the show. I guess it ties in nicer with the scenes on the Iron Islands and the impending offensive. That in turn makes Robb all the more the fool to have sent Theon to Pyke in the first place, because an Ironborn attack on the North is, apparently on the show, a scenario that should be considered. Considering this possibility actually builds up the Ironborns as more of a threat than they are perceived as in the books.


The best thing in the books about the attack on The North was that it was completely out of left field and not anticipated by anyone except maybe Catelyn.

In my opinion the show is starting earlier than the books in the whole brutally farfetched overrating of Tyrion Lannister in everything he does. I don't know how to do that spoiler tag so I can't really elaborate more right now until I figure it out.

#20 Envie

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:01 PM

Varys saw right through it-I agree, my post was more of a comment on how Tyrion's plan was flawed. The Robert Arryn story was believablke, Theon, not believable.


I'm actually surprised so many people thought this and think the match he gave LF with Robert Arryn was more believable than the match to Theon Greyjoy. Honestly, after what Tyrion went through with Lysa Arryn, I wondered why he would even consider it especially as clever as Littlefinger is - I figured if anyone would see through his ruse it would be LF, and maybe Varys would just suspect it and try to verify validity with his spies.

Obviously, what Tyrion has going on his side in the plot he gave Littlefinger is that no one at court knows just how badly Lysa Arryn wanted him dead nor how batshit crazy she is against the Lannisters. If they knew just how much she hated the 'royal family' I doubt Tyrion's suggestion for a marriage union would have been half as believable.

As for whether or not Varys saw through Tyrion's trick or not, I can't quite say. I do agree the match he suggested with Theon had the least merit, but you also have to remember that the television producers are betting on a different attitude than many who read the books will have. Is it possible the Greyjoy alliance would seem more favorable to those who haven't read all the details of the books and know only what was stated: That the Ironborn hate the Starks so much they'd willingly ally with the crown to defeat them? In that way it seems to make sense. We watch a very emotional scene between Theon and Balon which shows us just how many raw wounds there still are in regards to the previous war the Greyjoys lost. Sure, it was Robert Baratheon who was king at the end, but it was Ned Stark that Balon Greyjoy had to bend the knee to in surrender. I don't think its too far a stretch for Tyrion to use that fact as a tool in favor of trying to ally the Greyjoys against the king of the north via marriage.