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[Book Spoilers] Remember: The Queen mustn't know!


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#61 TheWanderer

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:49 PM

Tyrion, on the other hand, is as good a player as LF is (though neither is in Varys' league). It does make sense that Tyrion could outwit him.


Tyrion doesn't outwit him, he outplays him. Littlefinger is an ambitious, greedy man and Tyrion is able to use his greed to hide an otherwise weak ploy.

#62 BlackTalon

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

The clanman with the axe in Pycelle´s room was Timett from last season. I am not sure if Tyrion ever introduced him formally to his father (and thus to the viewers) when he marched them into that tent, but he was obviously meant to be Timett.

#63 ChromeWeasel

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:04 PM

I'll play devil's advocate. Petyr (rightly) considers Cersei an arrogant fool, he miscalculates in thinking she appreciates him and can be intimidated by him. Although the scene seems out of character for LF in the books, there is basis for it in the fact that he does suffer from overconfidence (which I believe will be his ultimate undoing).
Tyrion, on the other hand, is as good a player as LF is (though neither is in Varys' league). It does make sense that Tyrion could outwit him.


I like to think that the scene where Cersei abuses Baelish is meant to reinforce his view that it's foolish to play their games by their rules. Baelish would just get himself killed doing that. Baelish doesnt have the kind of power base that the great houses do. And he doesnt have the physical strength that many great lords have. He's basically on his own with his wits. He learns this lesson well in his youth, but for purposes of the TV show the lesson is reinforced for us with that scene.

#64 Nymeria101

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:57 AM

My favorite scene of Season 2...It was brilliant!!!

#65 sarah.jenice

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:02 AM

I think it makes the scene much easier to follow. When I first read that chapter and the resulting arrest of Pycelle I was a bit confused and had to reread it before I got what was going on (probably my slowest moment when reading the books but still...). Having all three involving Myrcella makes it abundantly clear that not all three can happen and that Tyrion is playing them. It's done better in the books, with Varys showing Tyrion that he knows about the conflicting arrangements already, but the way it was done would have taken half the episode.


I think your bold statement was probably their reasoning. We don't have any way to show what Tyrion is thinking (saying 1, 2, 3 in his head) so if he had proposed something with Tommen, viewers who have not read the book may not have understood what was going on. To be honest, my fiance pauses after almost every scene so I can clarify what we just saw. He's having trouble following all of the characters and really didn't understand this Tyrion scene.

I thought it was really well done from the acting to the editing. The Theon Greyjoy proposal was a bit jarring, but I am guessing they perhaps wanted to use a character we already know. The selection shocked me because, as someone said earlier, Theon is supposed to be a ward of Winterfell, fighting with Robb Stark, so how could Tyrion possibly know he would be in a position to marry Myrcella.

#66 Alexius

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:32 AM

Tyrion doesn't outwit him, he outplays him. Littlefinger is an ambitious, greedy man and Tyrion is able to use his greed to hide an otherwise weak ploy.

Does he?
The episode made me thinking what was the point of offerring Harrenhall to LF. If LF believed Tyrion he wouldn't tell the Queen because he obviously wanted Harenhall. If he had some doubts he wouldn't tell the Queen because of suspicions. In both cases such teasing would just make LF angry. So what Tyrion has achieved?

#67 ChromeWeasel

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:29 AM

Does he?
The episode made me thinking what was the point of offerring Harrenhall to LF. If LF believed Tyrion he wouldn't tell the Queen because he obviously wanted Harenhall. If he had some doubts he wouldn't tell the Queen because of suspicions. In both cases such teasing would just make LF angry. So what Tyrion has achieved?


Tyrion doesn't expect to figure out everything about Pycelle, Baelish, and Varys from his meetings. He's just testing the waters to see what's underneath. Tyrion discovers that Pycelle is a simply stooge for Cersei when Pycelle lies to Tyrion and informs Cersei of their private meeting. Tyrio also discovers that the other men aren't simple stooges for Cersei, because Cersei's reaction indicates that she didnt get information from them about Myrcella.

The fact that Varys and Baelish don't run off to Cersei doesnt mean that they are trustworthy at all. And it doesnt mean that Tyrion 'played them' either. It just means that they aren't pawns of Cersei like Pycelle is. That makes Baelish and Varys more useful for Tyrion. He's found intelligent people that he can work with, and he doesnt have to worry about things automatically being parroted back to his sister.

But Tyrion would realize that Baelish and Varys are also more likely to be dangerous in the long run. Either they both realized that Tyrion was just making a ploy, and they played along. Or else they are capable of making plans and keeping things quiet from the queen and her informers. And willing to ship off the pricess, despite the queen's wishes. That's a potential death sentence if they are discovered to be hiding it from Cersei. Either way it shows significant political skill from both men, making them useful but potentially dangerous allies.

Edited by ChromeWeasel, 19 April 2012 - 10:31 AM.


#68 Nakraal

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:27 PM

Yes but Tyrion:
A. makes a request from Pycelle and gives nothing back -> Pycelle tells the Queen.
B. makes a request from LF and gives Harrenhall -> If LF where going to tell the Queen, he now doesn't. If he does there goes Harrenhall.

In other words he makes the same move to both of them, but only gives LF a motive not to tell.

C. Regarding Varys: Tyrion is sure that he is not a pawn of the Queen and even if he is, he is too smart to give out his true nature that easily. The Theon bethrothal scene could never happen, I guess it was made for symetric purposes.

Edited by Nakraal, 19 April 2012 - 01:29 PM.


#69 ChromeWeasel

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:00 PM

Yes but Tyrion:
A. makes a request from Pycelle and gives nothing back -> Pycelle tells the Queen.
B. makes a request from LF and gives Harrenhall -> If LF where going to tell the Queen, he now doesn't. If he does there goes Harrenhall.

In other words he makes the same move to both of them, but only gives LF a motive not to tell.

C. Regarding Varys: Tyrion is sure that he is not a pawn of the Queen and even if he is, he is too smart to give out his true nature that easily. The Theon bethrothal scene could never happen, I guess it was made for symetric purposes.


Baelish isnt offerered Harrenhall up front. It's only after Pycell has already brought the plan to the queen that Baelish argues with Tyrion. Tyrion then retaliates with the Harrenhall offer.

Besides, Pycell is a maester and can't be given lands and rewards like a lord is. Nor should the hand of the king have to offer a bribe to the council's maester. He should execute the hand's order by rights. He goes to Cersei out of either loyalty or fear, but either way it achieve's Tyrion's goal of revealing a traitor.

Edited by ChromeWeasel, 19 April 2012 - 03:00 PM.


#70 Nakraal

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:17 PM

I was just saying that Tyrion cannot have a safe conclusion reg LF being a creature of the Queen or not if he bribes him.

Would Tyrion have to bribe LF every time he wants him to do something?
And can he be sure that LF wouldn't tell the Queen when he is asked to do something if he is not bribed?
If he is sure then that means that he knew beforehand that he is to be trusted regarding this and no "checking" was needed.

#71 James Arryn

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:23 PM

I was just saying that Tyrion cannot have a safe conclusion reg LF being a creature of the Queen or not if he bribes him.


Sure he can.

IF he's sure its one of those 3, and he only offers LF a bribe, he'll know for sure one way or another.

Because if no one tells Cersei, he knows its LF AND he knows how to keep LF on his side.

Edited by James Arryn, 19 April 2012 - 04:26 PM.


#72 Alexius

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

Because if no one tells Cersei, he knows its LF AND he knows how to keep LF on his side.

No, he doesn't.
1. It's naive to assume that one of the three always tells Cercei and other two never do that. Littlefinger and Varys obviously would inform Cercei if they were sure that it would benefit them. Pycell could keep his mouth shout if he believed that it's better to serve Tywin through Tyrion and not Cercei.
So if no one tells it doesn't mean anything.
2. Harenhall and Riverlands are one time deal and it's a very big deal. LF isn't stupid to be teased by it again and again.

#73 Nakraal

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:34 AM

Exactly that.

Unless Tyrion wanted them to believe that he believes they are to be trusted.

#74 ChromeWeasel

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:50 AM

I was just saying that Tyrion cannot have a safe conclusion reg LF being a creature of the Queen or not if he bribes him.

Would Tyrion have to bribe LF every time he wants him to do something?
And can he be sure that LF wouldn't tell the Queen when he is asked to do something if he is not bribed?
If he is sure then that means that he knew beforehand that he is to be trusted regarding this and no "checking" was needed.


The ruse wasn't about finding out who is 'safe' or trustworthy. Rather, the ruse is used in hopes of seeing who is explicitly loyal to Cersei above all else, and therefore needs to be eliminated from the council. As I explained above, just because someone doesnt go to the queen it doesnt make that person trustworthy. But it does show that it's a person that has potential for Tyrion to work with, so he doesnt have to be eliminated immediately.

In no case should Tyrion assume that anyone is safe to work with on the small council.

Edited by ChromeWeasel, 20 April 2012 - 07:50 AM.


#75 Trinket2

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:44 AM

It was nicely done. I've been a bit worried that Tyrion's cunning side hasn't been shown enough, and I'm glad they kept this scene in the show.
The only problem was the Myrcella+Theon proposal, but meh, I'm willing to overlook that.
This was probably one of my favorite episodes so far, just because of this scene.

#76 Envie

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:22 PM

At the end of the test, I don't think Tyrion really cares if LF and Varys believed the offer he was making. What he cared about was getting rid of the least reliable pawn in the game, and that was Pycelle. I think he even had a suspicioun it was Pycelle anyways and that he's not nearly in the same league as the other two as far as craftiness. What he offered up to Varys, impossible as it was, may have been on purpose because he wants Varys to think he's more foolish politically than he really is. With LF there's never been any question that it was the offer of Harenhal that clinched it. He could have offered the moon as the deal and Littlefinger would still consider it.

If it seemed implausible for a match with Theon Greyjoy to work, then all the more reason to give the lease valid offer to Varys because of course Varys knows everything via his spy network.

#77 LordMarani

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 03:46 PM

Honestly, I don't think theres any lore reason why Tyrion told Varys the Greyjoy marriage plan.

It was simply a show reason: They focus on only using very few names of characters not introduced yet or probably not remembered.
The dinner table scene had the purpose to re-establish who Myrcella is for non-readers, and Tommen was probably let out of the story to avoid confusion. He will probably get more focus once Myrcella is sent to Dorne.

And for the three stories, they already used one House that wasn't shown yet (Dorne), Lysa and the Vale are well known from S1 (LF even repeated parts of the story so people remember), and the Greyjoys got a lot of focus in these past episodes, so the writers changed Tyrions Story to Varys to use a House that is well known, even if it makes little sense plot-wise.

They just try to keep the number of characters and locations down so non-readers are not overwhelmed.

#78 Planetary

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:59 PM

The best part was the way Varys started the scene by gleefully saying how much he loved it when conversations began that way, and then fell into a look of disgust & disappointment when he heard Tyrion say "Theon Greyjoy". I interpreted that as him immediately figuring out what game Tyrion was playing, and being almost insulted that anyone could think he would fall for it. If I recall correctly, when they cut to Tyrion, he had an odd look on his face, too, as if he realized Varys was on to him. This is all subject to interpretation, but I'm pretty sure that's how the scene was played.

I friggin' love Varys. And Tyrion. But we see so little of Varys, that his scenes always stick out to me.


Most definitely. And after the disgust and disappointment, he had an amused look on his face. Varys definitely knew what was up.