77 replies to this topic

[Mulled Wino]

Envie, on 16 April 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I'm actually surprised so many people thought this and think the match he gave LF with Robert Arryn was more believable than the match to Theon Greyjoy. Honestly, after what Tyrion went through with Lysa Arryn, I wondered why he would even consider it especially as clever as Littlefinger is - I figured if anyone would see through his ruse it would be LF, and maybe Varys would just suspect it and try to verify validity with his spies.

Obviously, what Tyrion has going on his side in the plot he gave Littlefinger is that no one at court knows just how badly Lysa Arryn wanted him dead nor how batshit crazy she is against the Lannisters. If they knew just how much she hated the 'royal family' I doubt Tyrion's suggestion for a marriage union would have been half as believable.

As for whether or not Varys saw through Tyrion's trick or not, I can't quite say. I do agree the match he suggested with Theon had the least merit, but you also have to remember that the television producers are betting on a different attitude than many who read the books will have. Is it possible the Greyjoy alliance would seem more favorable to those who haven't read all the details of the books and know only what was stated: That the Ironborn hate the Starks so much they'd willingly ally with the crown to defeat them? In that way it seems to make sense. We watch a very emotional scene between Theon and Balon which shows us just how many raw wounds there still are in regards to the previous war the Greyjoys lost. Sure, it was Robert Baratheon who was king at the end, but it was Ned Stark that Balon Greyjoy had to bend the knee to in surrender. I don't think its too far a stretch for Tyrion to use that fact as a tool in favor of trying to ally the Greyjoys against the king of the north via marriage.

Anyone vying for the crown in Westeros, to me, would rather have the might of the Vale behind them than the Greyjoys (except maybe the North because they have no ships at this point).  The carrot of receiving a high lordship might have influenced LF and overridden any doubts he may have had about the validity of the marriage proposal.

Tyrion knows how batshit crazy Lisa is and how scared she is.  If she had any assurance of safety for little Robert, she would jump on it.

As far as the bold, its an excellent point.  I do believe the Stark hate is being played up mpre in the TV series than the book.  They barely mention that Robert led the assault on Pyke and concentrate strictly on their hatred for the Starks.

[Envie]

Mulleed Wino, on 16 April 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

As far as the bold, its an excellent point.  I do believe the Stark hate is being played up mpre in the TV series than the book.  They barely mention that Robert led the assault on Pyke and concentrate strictly on their hatred for the Starks.

Yes, thanks for pointing that out.- you clarified what I think I may have spent too many words trying to do!

I'm wondering if for viewers who don't read the books, playing up the hatred Balon Greyjoy has for the Starks and the north doesn't make the idea of Tyrion trying to ally with them more believable. Varys may have actually believed him in that case.

Sure, you're right in that as far as political advantages go, it does make far more sense to wed with the Vale even as nutty as Lysa is (and refuses to get involved with any side) because we all know what Littlefinger's going to do anyways (marrying Lysa) in the future. We expect that to be a more advantageous scenario. And since an alliance with the Greyjoys was never thought up in the books that I recall, it seems more ludicrous unless you look at it from the perspective of how hateful the Greyjoys are against the north in the show.

[Mulled Wino]

Envie, on 16 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yes, thanks for pointing that out.- you clarified what I think I may have spent too many words trying to do!

I'm wondering if for viewers who don't read the books, playing up the hatred Balon Greyjoy has for the Starks and the north doesn't make the idea of Tyrion trying to ally with them more believable. Varys may have actually believed him in that case.

Sure, you're right in that as far as political advantages go, it does make far more sense to wed with the Vale even as nutty as Lysa is (and refuses to get involved with any side) because we all know what Littlefinger's going to do anyways (marrying Lysa) in the future. We expect that to be a more advantageous scenario. And since an alliance with the Greyjoys was never thought up in the books that I recall, it seems more ludicrous unless you look at it from the perspective of how hateful the Greyjoys are against the north in the show.

It looked to me like when Varys complimented Tyrion on his plan, he had a look in his eye like "that was waaay too easy for me to spot", but that's just how I viewed it.  My wife only saw part of the show last night and I'm going to pay attention to how she reacts tonight when we finish.

The only thing I don't like about what you're proposing is that it makes Robb (and the Blackfish and the rest of the northmen and Riverlords) look dumber by leaving the entier north undefended against a powerful force that even Tyrion anticipates will attack the north.  Tyrion sure is superman.

[Envie]

Mulleed Wino, on 16 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

The only thing I don't like about what you're proposing is that it makes Robb (and the Blackfish and the rest of the northmen and Riverlords) look dumber by leaving the entier north undefended against a powerful force that even Tyrion anticipates will attack the north.  Tyrion sure is superman.

Hey don't blame me, the SHOW is doing that! We watched Balon Greyjoy lay out his own attack plan on the map, saying in exact words that most of the north has been left exposed and ripe for the picking! None of that is said so pointedly in the books. Viewers also have no idea (thus far) about the Tulleys and all of the Riverrun plots so they don't even know that defense exists yet. But there's no way to do subtlety in a television series so HBO chooses to play up the drama and make it far more obvious about a lot of things which fans of the books dislike. We tend to think spelling everything out for the viewer weakens the character and they lose credibility as intelligent thinkers. I don't tend to agree with that as much (like those who think Yoren telling Arya about the 'name prayer' weakens her own character).

I often have to remind myself that many of the details they reveal in the show are more obvious than they were in the books (like playing up Renly's homosexuality over the top). I have to keep reminding myself that the actors, as good as they are, are confined to short scenes, not entire chapters of hundreds of pages like in the book. When I remind myself of that, I'm a lot less critical of the show.

Edit: Just got email updated from the GoT youtube channel with this great "Inside the Episode" video which both producers talk at length about the magic of the scene with Tyrion and the three other men he's trying to trick to ferret out a spy:

http://www.youtube.c...ture=plpp_video

Worth watching!

Edited by Envie, 16 April 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[A Free Shadow]

Excellent scene, but two things:

He was offering Littlefinger a lot for his service, so he did not really assure Petyr can not be a spie of Cersei.

And I agree that Varys would have seen it through Theon Greyjoy, but casual viewers probably did not, so it would have been excellent if the sene opened on this part. Half of the audience would have been blown away, thinking this is real.

Edited by A Free Shadow, 16 April 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[Mulled Wino]

There's some subtlety that comes across in the series.  I think Varys' character subtle and they dont have to bang you over the head with the fact that he was an ex badass.  

[James Arryn]

Independent George, on 16 April 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

The best part was the way Varys started the scene by gleefully saying how much he loved it when conversations began that way, and then fell into a look of disgust & disappointment when he heard Tyrion say "Theon Greyjoy". I interpreted that as him immediately figuring out what game Tyrion was playing, and being almost insulted that anyone could think he would fall for it. If I recall correctly, when they cut to Tyrion, he had an odd look on his face, too, as if he realized Varys was on to him. This is all subject to interpretation, but I'm pretty sure that's how the scene was played.

I friggin' love Varys. And Tyrion. But we see so little of Varys, that his scenes always stick out to me.

That was sort of my take as well. I think he saw through it. I'm not sure he knew exactly why...like I doubt he went so far as to think 'he's giving a different version to everyone to see who leaks'...but I think he saw through the idea of Tyrion wanting to wed with the Iron Islands, of all options, and so knew that either he was being tested or played in some way.

I think it was also interesting that only Pycelle failed to argue. I think if I hadn't known from the book, I would have known from that distinction.

LF even argued...I don't think he went so far as to see through it like Varys did, but I got the sense he sniffed something, if only Tyrion making a bad decision and wondering how he could play that to his advantage.

[Pliny]

Mulleed Wino, on 16 April 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Varys would have never in a million years believed that Tyrion would send Myrcella off to the Iron Islands, other than that, great scene and cinematography.

Thorny Issues, on 16 April 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Actually, my reading of the Varys bit was that he didn't believe it for a second, and guessed what Tyrion was up to. He was then able to make sure he appeared to be Tyrion's 'friend'. I hope that's what was intended, because if so it just makes it all the more interesting.

That was my interpretation as well.

As far as the "North ripe for the picking" business goes, it seems that the show is playing on a theme of the first book; that trust and honor sometimes lead to pain. Ned relied on the honor of others, and Robb trusts Theon's honor, and Balon Greyjoy's honor as well, even when Catelyn warns him not to. It's, I suppose, a contrast to Tyrion's success (for the time being) in trusting nobody. Just a partially formed thought I had.

[Lors' Edrick]

Yes, the Theon bit was not the most appealing ploy to go with. I am under the opinion that at least a proposal to Loras Tyrell would have made more sense, but seeing as though he was 3rd on the Tyrell list; it wouldnt look right to propose a marriage alliance to a princess and a future lord who will probably not even inherit his father's vast holdings.
A better proposal could have possible been one for Myrcella to wed her second cousin Lancel... oh that would have just been fun to watch as Varys took it all in.

[Morrigan]

David Selig, on 16 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Anyway, this whole segment was very well done, Tyrion's "make do" comment towards Shagga had me laughing out loud.

Hell yes, I was so glad they kept the "cut off his manhood and feed it to the goats" line, AND the follow-up "there are no goats, halfman!" "make do!" lines.

I was a bit disappointed that it wasn't our good ol' Shagga son of Dolf, though. What happened to the actor playing him in S1?

Edited by Morrigan, 16 April 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[DannySpud]

sennahoj, on 16 April 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

The scene was executed quite well, apart from the change in the marriage alliances. As I wrote in another thread, I don't quite understand why they would change Tommen being sent to Dorne as a ward into offering Myrcella to Theon. I don't think it makes Tyrion's plot easier to understand, plus it makes him look a bit stupid. Both the actual marriage alliance (Myrcella+Trystane Martell) as well as the red herring for Littlefinger (Myrcella+Robert Arryn) were sound choices and both believable, whereas the one thrown at Varys was so obviously a ruse as to be embarassing. Theon is for all Tyrion knows a staunch Stark supporter with no tendency to betray Robb not with any leverage over his father. The Iron Islands are too far away for their fleet to make a difference to the double Baratheon threat from the sea and the south to King's Landing. The Martells and the Arryns both could bring their might to bear against either Renly or Stannis respectively, therefore both alliances would make sense. Littlefinger surely thinks so, at least he seems to buy into the scheme. Fostering Tommen at Dorne would also make sense and Varys could be made to believe that Tyrion favours this option, but the Myrcella+Theon plot seems to far fetched for as skilled a player as Varys to buy into it, more so making Varys believe someone as smart as Tyrion would favour that alliance.
Seeing how Tyrion regards Varys as his most skilled and dangerous opponent at the game of thrones, it surprises me that the writers went for that change. It makes Tyrion appear a bit stupid to think he could fool Varys that easily.

Any thoughts on why they opted for that change?
I know it seems like only a minor thing, but it bothers me.

I think it makes the scene much easier to follow. When I first read that chapter and the resulting arrest of Pycelle I was a bit confused and had to reread it before I got what was going on (probably my slowest moment when reading the books but still...). Having all three involving Myrcella makes it abundantly clear that not all three can happen and that Tyrion is playing them. It's done better in the books, with Varys showing Tyrion that he knows about the conflicting arrangements already, but the way it was done would have taken half the episode.

[Iszlai Ádám]

Fascinating topic, visited here for this tonight. The scene worked really well, especially in consideration with the limited possibilities of the show vs the book. I think its actually the far most brilliant solution until now from the writers.

[Tywin's bastard]

A great way to bring a fascinating chapter into a fairly short scene, without it actually feeling rushed. It's a fine example of how much smoother this season is in transitioning between scenes, even if this technically was one scene.

[Envie]

Tywin, on 16 April 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

A great way to bring a fascinating chapter into a fairly short scene, without it actually feeling rushed. It's a fine example of how much smoother this season is in transitioning between scenes, even if this technically was one scene.

Yes, and it also lends some credit to the writers as able to come up with clever ways to twist a very heavy novel into some artistically done acting and character transitions. I think many of us (myself included) have been hard on the producers of the show when they make changes from the book for the sake of paring down the length of scenes and characters. Many disagree with omissions or additions but I think they've got an overall great handle on how to best display such an epic saga as 5000+ pages of detailed writing has done in such a shorter length of time and less ability to give lots of detail as restricted by film.

[Dr. Pepper]

The scene was crafted very well.  It was sort of confusing in the books at first read because it was spread out over many pages.  I had to go back to reread a couple of times to finally have my aha moment.  I agree that it wasn't believable for a book reader for Tyrion to suggest Theon Greyjoy as an option to Varys.  I interpreted Varys reponse as his disbelief that Tyrion was being serious and a subtle acknowledgement that Varys understood what game Tyrion was playing.  However, my sister doesn't read the books and she seemed to accept it as a suitable offer.  So worked for non book readers but was strange for book readers.  It's the middle ground I suppose D&D struggle with.

[boojam]

Independent George, on 16 April 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

The best part was the way Varys started the scene by gleefully saying how much he loved it when conversations began that way, and then fell into a look of disgust & disappointment when he heard Tyrion say "Theon Greyjoy". I interpreted that as him immediately figuring out what game Tyrion was playing, and being almost insulted that anyone could think he would fall for it. If I recall correctly, when they cut to Tyrion, he had an odd look on his face, too, as if he realized Varys was on to him. This is all subject to interpretation, but I'm pretty sure that's how the scene was played.

I friggin' love Varys. And Tyrion. But we see so little of Varys, that his scenes always stick out to me.

It comes off a bit odd, one would guess that Tyrion couldn't tell Varys anything that Varys did not either already know or could find out.
Kind of like Tyrion knows that Varys knows what Tyrion is doing and Varys knows that Tyrion knows that Varys knows!

[boojam]

One thing that does not seem to occur to Tyrion, Pycelle has proven himself to so addled that he may have meant not to tell but forgot that he was supposed to do that and just blathered it by mistake.
Having Pycelle as the fall guy is like shooting fish in barrel.

[nara]

I didn't actually think Theon was that unbelievable.  He is an heir to one of the 7 great houses and, compared to Robert Arryn, he's both Prince Charming and a Maester!  Also, there's always a chance that Lysa Tully might not be willing to get involved in the fight even for a marriage alliance, while the Greyjoys are itching to fight.

[Envie]

boojam, on 16 April 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

One thing that does not seem to occur to Tyrion, Pycelle has proven himself to so addled that he may have meant not to tell but forgot that he was supposed to do that and just blathered it by mistake.
Having Pycelle as the fall guy is like shooting fish in barrel.

I don't think Tyrion is falling for the 'senile' disguise with Pycelle at all, do you? In fact, it would not surprise me at all if good ol' Ros and the other whores have been spying to report just how spry Pycelle really is. These things weren't in the book that way so its an interesting way to twist the plot in a more believable direction for Pycelle's arrest. Tyrion can say Pycelle's lying about a lot of things. Littlefinger and Varys probably already knew this anyways.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

nara, on 16 April 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

I didn't actually think Theon was that unbelievable.  He is an heir to one of the 7 great houses and, compared to Robert Arryn, he's both Prince Charming and a Maester!  Also, there's always a chance that Lysa Tully might not be willing to get involved in the fight even for a marriage alliance, while the Greyjoys are itching to fight.

In the eyes of the Lannisters and anyone else in the South, Robert Arryn has one huge advantage over Theon - he's not under the control of another Great House at war with the Lannisters. As far as anyone in King's Landing knows, Theon is still a hostage/ward of the Starks.