109 replies to this topic

[Lyanna Stark]

john, on 26 April 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Apart from that, I agree with Floredai.  And yes, a woman should love a child her husband had with another woman.  Best solution for everybody.

Even within the patriarchal society of Westeros, it's fairly well established that bastards are fostered away from the trueborn children as they are both a significant shame to the wife and a possible threat to the trueborn children (see Blackfyre rebellion and Ramsay Snow for examples).

[Happy Ent]

Floredaï, on 26 April 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

I believe it must be difficult NOT to love a child you raise. Caretakers certainly do, though they now don't usually mind kids for 15 years.

To find some common ground on this: I totally expect the people who raised to have loved him.

Septa Mordane. Maester Luwin. The wetnurse Wylla, and whoever continued nursing him at Winterfell. Rodrick Cassell. Old Nan. All these people probably developed love and affection for him.

But Cat? That’s the last woman in Westeros that you can expect develops any kind of loving feeling. Cersei would be a better candidate for loving Jon. (Since his very existence and his continued presence isn’t a constant personal insult to her and political insult and treason to her house.)

Here’s my list of all people in Westeros, ranked by who can be reasonably expected to love Jon:

1. Unnamed wetnurse
2. Ned
3. Old Nan
4. Wylla
5. Ashara Dayne
6. Maester Luwin
7. Hodor
8. Robb
9. Sansa
10. Arya
11. Bran
12. Rickon
13. Rodrick Cassell
14. Beth Cassell
.
.
.
5465. Cersei Lannister
.
.
135364. The Mountain that Rides
.
.
13243464. Random peasant called Wat
.
.
.
80543234. Hoster Tully
80543235. Catelyn Stark

[Floredaï]

john, on 26 April 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

eta - oh and I forgot that I came in to say I prefer the book Theon.  He's a nasty adolescent.  His problems arise from arrogance and immaturity.  That's a better character IMO than one with just some mixed up motivations.

To bring us back on topic, yes, a big explanation of book Theon's character is that he's a teenager - believes he knows better than everybody else and that "he'll show them!" Poor, poor Theon.

And hopefully, to close the other one : can we also agree that an ideal maternal figure would have loved Jon nevertheless ? But Cat isn't that woman, she has too much pride.

Edited by Floredaï, 26 April 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[john]

Happy Ent, on 26 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

If it’s some kind of step child, maybe.

But in this situation? Outrageous.

Outrageously good idea, I think.  She'd have loved it if she just gave it a shot.  Come on cuckolds and cuckqueens (who knew that was the word?), it's not the kid's fault.

Lyanna Stark, on 26 April 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Even within the patriarchal society of Westeros, it's fairly well established that bastards are fostered away from the trueborn children as they are both a significant shame to the wife and a possible threat to the trueborn children (see Blackfyre rebellion and Ramsay Snow for examples).

I hold Cat to higher standards than the westeros norm.

[Happy Ent]

Floredaï, on 26 April 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

And hopefully, to close the other one : can we also agree that an ideal maternal figure would have loved Jon nevertheless ?

Absolutely not. First, she’s not a maternal figure to Jon. She’s a maternal figure to her children. The best thing she can do for them, from many points of view (legal and emotional) is to insist on getting rid of Jon. Certainly not to belittle her maternal affection towards her own children by showing them that her maternal attention is handed out willy-nilly. “Oh, child, I love you so much.” “How much, mom?” “Just as much as I love the living proof of my inadequacy, the living proof of my husbands infidelity, and the living proof of House Stark pissing on House Tully and the thousands of dead Riverlanders that bled to death to pay for my marriage.” “Oh, thanks mom. That much.”

It’s not very maternal at all. It’s the opposite.

Second, a maternal figure ought to still be compatible with my view of an ideal woman, which does not differ much from begin an ideal person of any sex. Letting yourself get shat on is not part of that. Maternal figures should have personhood. Even in Westeros, nobody expects Cat to behave like a slave. By our modern standards, it’s even more unheard of.

--

Cat deserves either a sainthood or a slap for trying to find affection towards Jon (though she failed).

[Lyanna Stark]

Floredaï, on 26 April 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

And hopefully, to close the other one : can we also agree that an ideal maternal figure would have loved Jon nevertheless ? But Cat isn't that woman, she has too much pride.

I have no idea how you could think this. A mother does not deserve to be trod on. That's just...wrong.

[john]

Nobody deserved the situation, that's the beautiful tragedy of the story.  But ideally Cat would've been a bigger person and everyone would've lived happily together.  Of course Jon would've stayed at Winterfell or gone off with Rob and eventually the world would be overrun with frost monsters as a result.  But at least there would've been greater familial harmony.

Theon didn't deserve to be flayed or fucked up in the head either but his actions are more understandable to me than Cat's regarding Jon.

[turdle]

Happy Ent, on 26 April 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Second, a maternal figure ought to still be compatible with my view of an ideal woman, which does not differ much from begin an ideal person of any sex. Letting yourself get shat on is not part of that.

so, obviously, you think less of jon snow for allowing himself to be shat on by cat then.  it's a character flaw of jon snows to simply take the venom and walk away. i can only assume that is your position if you mean to be consistent.

no one "chooses" to love. cat can't choose to love jon. she either does, or does not, and i do not fault her for not loving him.  that she can not even seem to stand his presence, is a sign of her own lack of self confidence.  i can't imagine how one could justify the idea that jon should be sent away.


situation 1: person X lives with the only family they know to exist. this causes person Y to be faced with the reality of their significant others infidelity.

situation 2: person X is outcast from the only family they have ever known, treated like less of a person by their own father for a mistake he himself made. person Y is not faced daily with the infidelity of their significant other.

how exactly, do you justify situation 2 as the morally superior one?  ned did what he did, and cat can either accept it and move on, or begrudge him for it. jon staying at winterfel is NOT cat being shat on. jon staying at winterfel is ned doing right by a helpless, innocent child. if cat is too blinded by her own self righteous indignation to recognize that, then that is her character flaw.  i accept that, and still like her, just as i like all the other characters with all of their flaws as well.

[Angalin]

<mod>
Go back to discussing how Catelyn didn't love Theon enough to stop him from betraying Robb to Balon, please.  (There are lots of threads about Cat and Jon in the book forums with pages on this.)  Or, even better, how Balon didn't think much of Theon either.  In the HBO series.
</mod>

[steiner]

Theon's arc was handled magnificently in season 2. They turned a character I never found very convincing in the books, into one with a deeply conflicting internal struggle. It's probably the best improvement the tv series has made over the books.