405 replies to this topic

[Lyanna Stark]

Making a new thread so as to not clog the other one with Catelyn and Jon discussion. This thread is not about Cat's decisions visavi Robb, or whether or not you love/hate her character, but about her interactions with Jon Snow, prompted by the following exchange in the "Gendry and Jon Snow" thread.

A Free Shadow, on 13 April 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

I would rather keep this thread without this discussion. But there are so many things wrong at once with this statement, that I'll answer it just this once. Still keeping it short.

1. The one who conciously made a choice and effort to make Jon feel unwanted was Catelyn. That is a fact. That is what happened. You might want to give her a pass, because she wasn't given a piece of information? Whatever. She still did those things.

2. Wether Ned could have prevented her sucky behaviour, can never be told, because a secret Targaryen in Winterfell would still have been a threat to her family and she might have still threated Jon like a dog.

If you want to expand this discussion, maybe a new thread would serve?

My response to that:
Cat didn't treat Jon like a dog.

If you want a paralell, check what Cersei wanted to do to Robert's bastard and what she thinks of Cat accepting Jon under her roof. Cersei had no qualms about killing Gendry and all his half brothers and sisters. She even states in one chapter that she hinted to Robert she'd have Mya Stone assassinated if she was ever brought to Kings Landing. Bringing up bastards together with trueborn children is a huge affront to the wife or a lord. It's an embarrassment to her of massive proportions and people keep ignoring this over and over again. Cersei thinks that Cat must be meek as a mouse to accept such an insult.

Cat was distant and cold to Jon, she did not treat him like a dog. She lashes out to him once only.

A Free Shadow, on 16 April 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

I really refuse to take Cersei for any sane example in any matter.
If Catelyn wanted to exercise her "right" to be angry, I would have really welcomed her to lash out at Ned. I she was too weak to do that, abusing a child, who could not in any way get back, making him feel quilty of his very existance was the lowest of low.

As you bring this up again, I answer. But could I repeat myself and ask once more to keep this discussion in other threads, if it interests you. I'm sure you know there are dozens of them littering the boards. And I've read one or two, it did not in any way change my mind. Just to infrom you in advance.

Now, while Cersei is certainly crueller than needed, we do get an extra perspective from a lady as highborn as Cat and Cersei is very, very clear that fostering a bastard together with trueborn children is an insult and an embarrassment. To completely disregard Cersei's views on this would to be disregarding the generally understood way of things, since Cersei is quite judgemental.

Cat does talk to Ned about it, twice that we know of. The first time Ned tells her to never speak about it again, which is basically a STFU answer, and the second he is outraged that Cat asks that Jon needs to leave Winterfell.

I've posted about this before in another thread and I don't condone Cat for her lashing out at Jon at Bran's bedside, but the fact of the matter is, Cat was still much, much nicer about Jon's existence at Winterfell than she needed to and she had all the right on her side to be royally pissed off about it. Her lashing out seems to be about all her pent up rage, embarraassment and frustration and yes, it's wrong to aim it at Jon Snow, but as Ned has stonewalled her....where is it gonna go?


I've written this before in another thread regarding not just the embarrassment of having a bastard fostered with her trueborn children, but on another aspect of Jon Snow/Cat as well:

Am I the only one who thinks Cat had very good reasons to be upset that Jon was around? It's seen as a huge slight for a husband to raise his bastards with his normal children. It's normally only muppets like Walder Frey who does this, so Cat had good reason to feel rather put upon by it, especially considering that she and Ned had a very happy marriage apart from that and that Ned did respect her in every other way.

Further, Ned always refused to tell her who the mother was or if he felt anything for her. The rumours Cat heard was that it was the ethereal beauty Ashara Dayne, which must have been pretty painful to hear, especially since that indicates that Ned preferred Ashara both before and after his wedding to Cat. So yeah, Cat had to endure the product of what she thought as her husband cheating on her every single day, plus the added embarrassment of what outsiders thought of it.

Despite this, she only snaps at Jon once, and that is under extreme pressure. Apart from that one time, we don't see her treat Jon unfairly or being mean to him.


To conclude:

Even though Cat chose being cold and distancing herself from Jon instead of causing all the issues she had every right to, people still insist she should have mothered Jon, despite it being against her entire upbringing and the traditions of Westeros to do so. Cat should then have been more selfless and forgiving, which would surely make her a better archetype for a demure mother and a far more traditional, tractable female character, but hardly an interesting character. Conflict creates tension and Cat's coldness towards Jon adds flavour to her character and she avoids being the stereotypical good, altruistic, demure mother.

Ned certainly could alleviate the situation, either by sending Jon to be fostered or by telling Cat the truth eventually, but he chose not to.


Link to original thread here.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 17 April 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[ServantOnIce]

She hated Lord Snow (Jon not Ramsay) because he reminded her of her Husband's sins.  It was painful every time she looked at him and constant source of suffering.

Him leaving was the only choice and she was angry with Eddard for not having him fostered somewhere else.

[Lyanna Stark]

ServantOnIce, on 16 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

She hated Lord Snow (Jon not Ramsay) because he reminded her of her Husband's sins.  It was painful every time she looked at him and constant source of suffering.

Him leaving was the only choice and she was angry with Eddard for not having him fostered somewhere else.

That wasn't the question though, but how she chose to interact with Jon. Was it reasonable? If not, why not?

[Ran]

It's clear that Catelyn treated him as an unwanted guest in the castle. George explicitly says she didn't beat him, she didn't verbally abuse him -- she just ... didn't interact with him, and he could tell when looking at her distance from him that she resented his being there. The scene in Bran's room was an aberration of a woman sunk deep into a black depression, something she feels shame and guilt about later on when she gets back to her senses.

It was Eddard's call, and so it was Eddard's responsibility. He's the father of her children, but he can't use that to emotionally blackmail her into accepting his bafflingly inexplicable insult. Eddard chose the situation, and Eddard chose to continue with it despite the emotional cost on Jon and Catelyn both. People are expecting Catelyn to just swallow what Eddard was serving because ... why? Why should this very wrong thing he was doing go unresisted?

Jon would have been much happier had he been fostered at Cerwyn or some other place. We all "know" why Ned did it, but his silence merely exacerbates the situation.

Edited by Ran, 16 April 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Jon doesn't have any recollection of being treated like a dog.

Cat obviously resented Jon's presence, but she wasn't going out of her way to treat him badly.

She snapped at him by Bran's bedside.  A cruel, awful thing to say, but this is the only time we see her being nasty to Jon.  Isn't it?

[Jayce]

Although I largely agree with you, you must admit that conflict between Jon and Cat, particularly conflict before the books start is not something that we would see from any POV. Meaning that a statement that Cat was always cold to Jon, means she was always cold to Jon.

We don't know to what extent that statement encompasses but we do get a feel for it in the book interactions, mostly she just ignores him but she can snap at him if she feels the need. No, I'm not suggesting that this means she treated him like a dog, but nor am I saying that her mistreatment of him is limited to the 2 scenes we do see.

[Free Northman]

Yes.

(As in yes, she did.)

[eyeheartsansa]

Jayce, on 16 April 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Although I largely agree with you, you must admit that conflict between Jon and Cat, particularly conflict before the books start is not something that we would see from any POV. Meaning that a statement that Cat was always cold to Jon, means she was always cold to Jon.

We don't know to what extent that statement encompasses but we do get a feel for it in the book interactions, mostly she just ignores him but she can snap at him if she feels the need. No, I'm not suggesting that this means she treated him like a dog, but nor am I saying that her mistreatment of him is limited to the 2 scenes we do see.

Right.. whatever times she was cold to, or snapped at Jon, it hasn't been important enough for any POV character to recall.

Side note - Jon is quite a gentleman about it.  He could have told Robb, dude, your mom's a bitch!  Instead he says, 'she treated me kindly.'  At this moment, he shows a level of restraint and discretion that is far beyond his years.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 16 April 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Jayce, on 16 April 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Although I largely agree with you, you must admit that conflict between Jon and Cat, particularly conflict before the books start is not something that we would see from any POV. Meaning that a statement that Cat was always cold to Jon, means she was always cold to Jon.

We don't know to what extent that statement encompasses but we do get a feel for it in the book interactions, mostly she just ignores him but she can snap at him if she feels the need. No, I'm not suggesting that this means she treated him like a dog, but nor am I saying that her mistreatment of him is limited to the 2 scenes we do see.

I guess that depends on what you mean with "mistreatment". Being cold and distanced is not "mistreatment" as such. Cat was not Jon's mother and she didn't want to be. There is no universal rule who says women need to be nice and accepting to their husband's illigitimate children, especially not in Westeros where the situation is viewed as extremely insulting to Cat.

Jon doesn't recall being punished or anything like that, he does recall Cat being cold and distanced, and definitely making certain his status was not forgotten. "Mistreatment" though?

eyeheartsansa, on 16 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Right.. whatever times she was cold to, or snapped at Jon, it hasn't been important enough for any POV character to recall.

Side note - Jon is quite a gentleman about it.  He could have told Robb, dude, your mom's a bitch!  Instead he says, 'she treated me kindly.'  At this moment, he shows a level of restraint and discretion that is far beyond his years.

It is sad that had Cat known the truth, she may have had a completely different relationship to Jon and maybe Jon would have had more of a mother figure. I think Jon misses not having a mother, hence why he is sad that Cat remains cold and distant.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Free Northman, on 16 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Yes.

(As in yes, she did.)

When and how?

[Ran]

Jayce,

GRRM says she never "snapped" at him. He has never been abused by her, physically or verbally.

ETA:

GRRM in his own words:

Quote

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

Edited by Ran, 16 April 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Catelyn treats Jon badly.  That's clear.  To what extent she treats him badly is unknown, and I suspect how much you think there's a pattern of abuse will feed into how you think of the situation and vice versa.  

I will say that social norms don't justify mistreating a child who has zero control over their situation.  I find it quite strange that you would argue otherwise.  There are plenty of disgusting social norms in Westeros, and if mistreatment of children who have done nothing to you but exist is one such norm then that changes nothing of the morality.  Yes, it's an explanation, and yes, you can feel sympathy for Cat, but that doesn't make her behaviour acceptable, even if it was better than how some others might behave.

[Jayce]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

That wasn't the question though, but how she chose to interact with Jon. Was it reasonable? If not, why not?

How she chose to interact with him is her choice, no one can make her choose differently.

As for reasonable, well that is a hard one to answer, however I shall offer the following:

When a woman is raped, is it fair to treat the child badly?
When a woman dies in child birth, is it fair to treat the child badly?
When a child's parents do something wrong, like being a traitor, is it fair to assume the child will be to?

Obviously the answer is no to all of them, so when a child is taken from his mother (or whose mother has died, depending on which theory is true), given no information about her and brought up with its half-siblings, is it fair to treat that child badly because you don't like the circumstances?

No it isn't.

Cat might of been justified to be pissed off but she was not fair or reasonable to Jon. She should of been harder with Ned about it, it was his decision, his lack of information and quite frankly for one reason or another his fault, not Jon's.

[Jayce]

eyeheartsansa, on 16 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

he shows a level of restraint and discretion that is far beyond his years.

and far beyond Cat.

[Lyanna Stark]

FuzzyJAM, on 16 April 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Catelyn treats Jon badly.  That's clear.  To what extent she treats him badly is unknown, and I suspect how much you think there's a pattern of abuse will feed into how you think of the situation and vice versa.  

I will say that social norms don't justify mistreating a child who has zero control over their situation.  I find it quite strange that you would argue otherwise.  There are plenty of disgusting social norms in Westeros, and if mistreatment of children who have done nothing to you but exist is one such norm then that changes nothing of the morality.  Yes, it's an explanation, and yes, you can feel sympathy for Cat, but that doesn't make her behaviour acceptable, even if it was better than how some others might behave.

Check GRRM's own words posted by Ran above. Do you still think it's "mistreatment"? It's definitely not abuse. How about Ned's responsibility? He could have sent Jon to be fostered by a family nearby, like the Cerwyns, but he chose not to. Where does his responsibility come in? He knew very well how insulting it would be to Cat.


Jayce,


It's been stated that Cat did not abuse Jon, she was cold and distanced and lashed out at him once only. You seem to labour under the misunderstanding that Cat abused Jon, either verbally or physically, which was not the case.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[Jayce]

eyeheartsansa, on 16 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Right.. whatever times she was cold to, or snapped at Jon, it hasn't been important enough for any POV character to recall.

Side note - Jon is quite a gentleman about it.  He could have told Robb, dude, your mom's a bitch!  Instead he says, 'she treated me kindly.'  At this moment, he shows a level of restraint and discretion that is far beyond his years.

There is no need for sarcasm, I just stated that just because we haven't heard of it in a POV doesn't mean its never happened. What 'it' is could be minor or major or anything in between.

[Jayce]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

I guess that depends on what you mean with "mistreatment". Being cold and distanced is not "mistreatment" as such. Cat was not Jon's mother and she didn't want to be. There is no universal rule who says women need to be nice and accepting to their husband's illigitimate children, especially not in Westeros where the situation is viewed as extremely insulting to Cat.

Jon doesn't recall being punished or anything like that, he does recall Cat being cold and distanced, and definitely making certain his status was not forgotten. "Mistreatment" though?




It is sad that had Cat known the truth, she may have had a completely different relationship to Jon and maybe Jon would have had more of a mother figure. I think Jon misses not having a mother, hence why he is sad that Cat remains cold and distant.

I use the word mistreatment to mean any treatment that he doesn't deserve, I'm not saying she abused him. As for your last statement I think you might be right.

[Free Northman]

Rather than looking at contributing factors that make a person behave badly, I rather ignore them and ask the question:

"How would a good person act in such as situation?"

And a good person would take an innocent child in and give it the mother figure it so obviously craves and requires for its psychological development, she would treat it as her own and be a loving mom to him.

A person looking after their own interests first, however, would not do this, but would see him as a threat, an insult to her honor, whatever.

The point is, she puts her own interests before the interests of the child, and that makes her a bad person in my eyes.

This is the simple way in which I view the world, and it works for me.

[Lyanna Stark]

Jayce, on 16 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

There is no need for sarcasm, I just stated that just because we haven't heard of it in a POV doesn't mean its never happened. What 'it' is could be minor or major or anything in between.

But GRRM has stated it did not happen. Check Ran's post above.

Free Northman, on 16 April 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Rather than looking at contributing factors that make a person behave badly, I rather ignore them and ask the question:

"How would a good person act in such as situation?"

And a good person would take an innocent child in and give it the mother figure it so obviously craves and requires for its psychological development, she would treat it as her own and be a loving mom to him.

A person looking after their own interests first, however, would not do this, but would see him as a threat, an insult to her honor, whatever.

The point is, she puts her own interests before the interests of the child, and that makes her a bad person in my eyes.

This is the simple way in which I view the world, and it works for me.

The child is not hers, she has no obligation to love it.

The mere existance of Jon at Winterfell is a grave insult to her and it even threatens the foundations of her marriage, yet Ned, who brought Jon there, does nothing, or stonewalls her when she asks him about it.

Tbh, you can probably put me down as not a good person cos if my husband brought home a child he had with another woman while cheating on me, there is no way in hell I'd meekly say "Yes, I'll take care of him/her", and I live in a far more openminded society than Westeros.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Jayce]

Ran, on 16 April 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Jayce,

GRRM says she never "snapped" at him. He has never been abused by her, physically or verbally.

ETA:

GRRM in his own words:

Again I never said she abused him.