Winterbreath, on 17 April 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:
Have you read ADwD? Popular opinion states that
I think it's rude to state, "have you read aDwD" when someone has a different take on the story than you do. I am on a second reread of all the books and am currently on the fourth book, aFfC. Some of my opinions are coming from this reread. It's amazing how you catch different things and how it can change your interpretation. This thing with Ashara...I know many people have formed this opinion that she is the Septa, but we do not know for certain.
Lummel, on 17 April 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:
But that is the fact of the situation. Jon is a bastard and he can't be lord of westeros. There isn't a nice way of expressing that. We know from Bran I AGOT that little Bran is aware of that fact and the poignancy of it.
The incident is important in establishing just how much of a defining fact his bastard status is. On the other hand we don't see Jon and Catelyn grinding their teeth and cursing each other from afar once they have seperated.
We've already learned two ways that Jon can be legitamized and become Lord of Winterfell and both ways come from kings: Robb leaves Winterfell to Jon, and Stannis wants to make him Lord. By the end of aDwD, we know that Jon doesn't want to accept Stannis's offer, and he doesn't know about Robb's offer, but we could assume that even if he knew Robb named him, he'd probably still want to stay on the Wall.
Mindrot, on 17 April 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:
My biggest problem with how Cat treated Jon lies in the fact that Jon did not choose any of the situations he was placed, certainly when he was very young, and it appears that his plan was to leave and try to make his own life ASAP, but he had no choice in being born a bastard, being raised in his 'fathers' home, or being an affront to Lady Cat. Yet Cat directs her anger at the shame and embarrassement of Jon towards him, and not to the source, Ned. Obviously we know it was a difficult situation for Ned, because he is honor bound to his sister to protect Jon, and the best way to do that is keep him in Winterfell, not fostering him somewhere else.
I believe Cat acted in a morally wrong way in not showing love towards Jon. Not for some sexist belief that all women should be motherly, nurturing, forgiving etc, but by the sheer fact that Jon was not the resposible party. He did nothing to deserve the coldness she showed him, in fact his interactions with the other children etc should have showed Cat that despite his bastardness, he was growing to be a good man, and good Stark. Her anger should have been directed at Ned. I know that she was frightened into not bringing it up to Ned after the first time, but again, this is not Jons fault. At no point is he deserving of her coldness, and therein lies my problem with Cat. Put aside all the sexist stuff, pure logic should tell this woman that treating Jon badly/coldly w/e is unfair to him. And if she somehow justifies this by saying that him being raised in Winterfell is unfair to HER, then once again, her problem lies with Ned, not Jon.
Cat has something very special with Ned. She has a husband that is the very Platonic Form of Honor. While she believes that his honor has but one smear, Jon, does she not also see that he is the 'Best' man in the entire realm? A man with 1 smear of shit, in a world that is neck deep in shit, and she focuses her anger at that one smear? The fruit of that smear. Why could she not forgive Ned for his 1 mistake and show love to Jon? That is her fault, her flaw, in regards to Jon. A better person (man or woman) would forgive and love IMO.
Also in the same regard, why does she not trust and love Ned enough to raise this one bastard? Certainly Ned made mistakes, but he made every effort to welcome Cat to winterfell as wife, and apart from THE ONE TIME HE FRIGHTENS HER (read every other husband in this world of shit could beat for just a wrong look but Ned ALWAYS treats her with respect, except in this one case where he has givin his word to his dying sister), why cant she just forgive Ned for this ONE transgression (a big one yes, but just ONE?!) and love Jon?
Yes its morally wrong for Catelyn to make Jon feel unwelcome, but I think its understandable. Have you ever tried to put yourself in Catelyn's position? Could you love your spouse's bastard? I don't think I could. In today's world, the typical response to a reveal like that would be divorce.