176 replies to this topic

[Envie]

The Monkey, on 16 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Two people kissing is "graphic"?

Uh, where were you season 1? You don't think the cock sucking scene with Loras and Renly was graphic?? (sorry to be so blunt but geez!)

Not sure why you guys are being so blythe about this and missing the point entirely.

The point, in trying to keep with the topic of this thread, is that a lot of things that were 'implied' or just a suggestion in the books are exaggerated quite a bit in the series for dramatic effect and sexual titillation for the viewers.

Margaery appearing much more sexy in a low cut dress doesn't upset me at all, yet people are complaining about it and saying it was 'inappropriate' - I find that laughable considering the other examples I've given.

[Envie]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 16 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

I suppose it is to some. Third graders maybe.

No need to get insulting. The person asking is taking what I wrote completely out of context. I said the series has given us graphic indication of the sexual nature of relationships between Renly/Loras and Stannis/Melisandre that were not done in the books. He says, "kissing is graphic?" like I must be some kind of prude. So in order to correct that ignorant mistake, I'm willing to point out the far more 'graphic' nature of Renly and Loras' homosexual relationship as well as Mel and Stan banging away on the battlefield table like two college kids caught on the pool table at a frat party. bleh.

[Salome Sand Witch]

Envie, on 16 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Keep arguing it all you like, the fact is neither of those characters had a 'sex scene' written into the books. Period. In the series we're getting very graphic ones. There's quite a large difference here in what you're denying as 'subtle' from the books. Yes, I believe those lines you quoted are subtle hints that there's something intimate happening but they are not defacto verbatim confirmations of sex happening. Someone could interpret those lines entirely differently.

Um, Melisandre gave birth to Stannis' shadow child.  Where do you think babies come from?

Also, when she was talking with John Snow, she mentioned she couldn't take anymore of Stannis' life force, but would transfer her attentions to John - which would give him unimaginable pleasure.

It was also stated pretty explicitly that it was Melisandre who shared Stannis' bed, and not Queen Selyse.  So, to be honest, I'm not sure what you're saying is not explicit in the books.

Translation to the show:  a bit of kissing in a scene which speaks exactly to the issues as expressed in the book does not equal the ickiness of Ros' screeching recipient of a finger bang in a scene which in essence completely changes the character of Littlefinger.  (Who believes he would disclose all that information to anyone, much less whores who could be spies?)

OK, off the soap box now.

Edit:  Envie responded above while I was writing this.  I will leave it as is, though.

Edited by Salome Sand Witch, 16 April 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Re: The explicitness of certain things in the show.  It has to be explicit for a TV audience especially since the characters storylines being debated never had a POV nor did they have someone watching while they were doing the dirty.  In a recent interview, GRRM agreed with how explicit D&D are being with some characters and he also listed a few future things that will need to be explicitly shown in the show, such as the Frey pies, because there is no real useful way to subtly show them.

I imagine if we had a Renly or Loras POV, we'd get a sex scene in the books.  We had one Mel POV, but she even stated outright that she and Stannis shared a bed.  I suppose he could have gone a step further and had her flashback to every part of the sex scene, but that would have been ridiculous as she'd stated to Davos and Jon that she and Stannis did the dirty.  The biggest difference is how we assume Stannis came around to having sex with Mel.

[Envie]

Wow, you guys are really determined to flame the hell out of me for suggesting the show is being more 'graphic' than the subtle nature of the books and how each of the points listed were definitely explicit in the books. This is so ridiculous. Are you really deluding yourselves into thinking the two examples (book writing vs. show scenes) are anything the same??

Ok, my last attempt, again, to clarify for you (three of you who keep arguing this mostly minor point):

Salome Sand Witch, on 16 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Um, Melisandre gave birth to Stannis' shadow child.  Where do you think babies come from?

Yes, you're right. It's implied the 'shadow baby' Melisandre gives birth to is a result of sex with Stannis and a whole lot of creepy magic too. You know, someone with dark powers like that could possibly make a creature come out of her vagina that expands into a full grown demon without sperm and an egg, right? I mean, are we really talking biology here in such a bizarre fantasy concept? She didn't even gestate with this thing, she just appeared pregnant one night and Davos rowed her out to the cave where she births a demon in minutes that grows and vanishes into the castle... not very realistic but pretty creepy.  It's not a 'baby' - ugh!

Salome Sand Witch, on 16 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Also, when she was talking with John Snow, she mentioned she couldn't take anymore of Stannis' life force, but would transfer her attentions to John - which would give him imaginable pleasure.

It was also stated pretty explicitly that it was Melisandre who shared Stannis' bed, and not Queen Selyse. So, to be honest, I'm not sure what you're saying is not explicit in the books.

Again, two more examples in the book which imply sex with Stannis but does not describe any sex scene. It's left to the imagination of the reader to guess. I'm not DENYING Martin was writing about them having sex, I'm denying there was outright 'explicit' example as others keep trying to defend. It's not explicit, its implied. There's a huge difference when writing. A difference they chose not to go with in the television series.

Salome Sand Witch, on 16 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Translation to the show: a bit of kissing in a scene which speaks exactly to the issues as expressed in the book does not equal the ickiness of Ros' screeching recipient of a finger bang in a scene which in essence completely changes the character of Littlefinger. (Who believes he would disclose all that information to anyone, much less whores who could be spies?)

Way to take the scenes out of context by comparison!  Once again - where were you as well as that other guy in season 1 when Loras gave Renly a blowjob? That isn't comparable at all to Ros finger banging a whore in another scene??

I'm sorry you all disagree with me so strenuously but come on, this is silly. The argument is whether or not its explicitly detailed in the books that Renly was having a sexual relationship with Loras Tyrell. It's just not. It's hinted, implied, and left to the imagination of the reader to what extent their 'friendship' extends behind closed doors. Did I believe Renly was gay in the books? Yes, I was pretty sure he might be, but it really didn't matter to me in the greater picture other than wondering if Margaery was in fact still a virgin since if she was, it would support a gay theory better.

On the other hand - in the series, we are bashed over the head with YES - graphic scenes of sex. Loras and Renly, in season one, have a homosexual sex scene. You don't think that was graphic? It wasn't just kissing, my god why do you people keep trying to say these scenes in the series are no big deal because we all KNEW it from the books. It's laughable.

Edited by Envie, 16 April 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Envie, I get what you are saying and I agree that it was somewhat shocking when the show was so explicit.  I think the point the rest of us are trying to make is that there was no way for these particular sex scenes to be explicit because these characters weren't POV characters and no POV character was in the room with them when they were getting it on.  It makes more sense to show instead of tell on TV.

These sexual relations do become important in the books. The Lannisters accept the Tyrell's claim that Marg is a virgin without having her examined by a Septon.  The only conclusion is that it's widely known in court that Renly and Loras were lovers.  If the courtiers had no idea that Renly was gay, Marg would have had her maidenhead tested.

Does homosexual sex bother you in general?  This is a genuinely curious question and I'm not trying to be judgmental at all.  I admit that I very much support gay rights but I did feel a tad uncomfortable seeing two men getting it on on TV since it's not something I see or talk about on a daily basis.

[bloocanary]

Ok, I'm going with Envie on this. I don't mind the L/R sex scenes in and of themselves because omg, hot. It did, however, take some getting used to having it shown to us rather than hinted at. Martin NEVER explicitly detailed that R/L and M/S had sex, it was definitely alluded to but never outright witnessed by any of the POV characters (the exception being Mel's reveal that her bed's been empty in Dance, but that's 4 books away from when it's revealed in the show, and so subtle you might miss it).

That M/S had sex wasn't confirmed until DWD, so lets not act like it was spelled out for us all along. I like that we had to wait for confirmation, whereas there's no real mystery for those watching the show. Sure, Mel tells Davos she and Stannis had sex, but Davos doesn't trust a word Mel says, so why should we? Shadow Stannis could easily have been conceived by some sort of non-sex magic.

My only beef with the L/R scene is that their relationship was incidental to the story in the books, but in the show it's become their story arc's major plot point. In the book, Renly's role is that of a formidable challenger to the throne with one of the best knights in the realm as part of his personal guard. That he and Loras are a couple isn't confirmed until after he's dead. It's secondary. In the miniseries, Renly is one half of the show's token gay couple first and, oh yeah, he's doing some war stuff too. I understand why they're doing it and why they aren't following the strict POV rules of the book, but it is a little jarring to have something subtly and gradually revealed in the books revealed so early and blatantly in the show.

[bloocanary]

Dr. Pepper, on 16 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

These sexual relations do become important in the books. The Lannisters accept the Tyrell's claim that Marg is a virgin without having her examined by a Septon.  The only conclusion is that it's widely known in court that Renly and Loras were lovers.  If the courtiers had no idea that Renly was gay, Marg would have had her maidenhead tested.

Not necessarily. 1. I remember there being a convenient excuse that Renly was so busy with preparing for war that he didn't have time to bed Margaery and 2. I think that excuse was accepted so readily by the Lannisters because they needed the Tyrell money and support. I wouldn't be surprised if the Lannisters helped come up with that explanation for Margaery's virginity to ensure that the marriage would be accepted without fuss.

[Triskele]

I think it's implicit in the books where it comes to Stannis and Mel, and it's explicit when it comes to Renly and Loras.  In the case of the former, there is no smoking gun.  When it comes to the latter, it's undeniable when you put it all together.

-"Renley's little Rose"
-Loras being the most upset at Renly's death
-"Put that sword away or I'll put it somewhere Renly never found."
-Littlefinger talking about marrying off the Tyrell sons and saying "...particularly difficult in the case of Ser Loras."

[turdle]

Salome Sand Witch, on 16 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Um, Melisandre gave birth to Stannis' shadow child.  Where do you think babies come from?

Envie, on 16 April 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

You know, someone with dark powers like that could possibly make a creature come out of her vagina that expands into a full grown demon without sperm and an egg, right? I mean, are we really talking biology here in such a bizarre fantasy concept?

having only begun my read through of aDwD i can not comment on any info there in, but stannis and melisandre having sex is anything but explicit in aCoK.  so she has a shadow come out of her vagina, and therefore she had to have sex with stannis? i don't think so. Envie = 100% correct.

[Envie]

turdle, on 16 April 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

having only begun my read through of aDwD i can not comment on any info there in, but stannis and melisandre having sex is anything but explicit in aCoK.  so she has a shadow come out of her vagina, and therefore she had to have sex with stannis? i don't think so. Envie = 100% correct.

Thanks for the support. I feel like a salmon swimming upstream against a lot of insistence that we should all just somehow know Stannis and Melisandre are having sex right away in the books. It just wasn't that obvious until much later down the road. And by comparison, the hints that Renly was gay were even more vague in my reading but a lot of people in this debate seem to think it was amazingly obvious and explicitly (not implicitly like I am arguing) described via the text. And it just plain was not!

And I agree, there some weird stuff that happens with Melisandre but we're never given a really clear image of what exactly she does in private to make this stuff happen. We know later in the books that she can take the blood of a king and do some really scary stuff too. How do know sex with Stannis is the preferred method for powerful spells? We don't. We never get a clear explanation of what exactly goes on nor what she did to create the infamous 'shadow demon baby' which obviously because she 'births' it must imply she had sex to create it. That's probably what gets the ball rolling, I'm sure - but just like the Maegi in Daenerys story, its not that simple... death to create life seems a common theme among the magic they have over there. Melisandre is from Asshai, where the demons came out and destroyed everything - were they 'born' or created by dark magic and blood magic too?

[Envie]

Envie, on 16 April 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

- but just like the Maegi in Daenerys story, its not that simple... death to create life seems a common theme among the magic they have over there. Melisandre is from Asshai, where the demons came out and destroyed everything - were they 'born' or created by dark magic and blood magic too?

Also, in quoting myself, I realized something else about Mel's 'shadow baby'... what if its similar to what happened with Dany's baby? These dark magics have somehow twisted and transformed a 'baby' into something else because of the dark powers of some sort of blood ritual. Is this the same as what Melisandre is doing? Does she create a baby with Stannis and then perform a blood ritual that sacrifices the life of the baby to create the demon instead? No matter what, its pretty messed up stuff.

This is probably a topic best left for another thread so as not to further derail this one away from the whole 'sex' and 'sexuality' debate over Renly. I do apologize for going off track with it. My first post was simply stating an agreement with someone that a lot of subtlety is lost in the translation from book to film because you can't imply as many things and that their graphic sex scenes were filling that role.

That's all! I'm done.

[unJon]

Sorry if others said this before, but the first couple of posts got the exact opposite as I did from the "officially a virgin" line.  I read Loras to say that while officially, she may not be a virgin, both Renley and Loras know better and the rumors would start soon (or were already starting) if she didn't get pregger.

[Dr. Pepper]

turdle, on 16 April 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

having only begun my read through of aDwD i can not comment on any info there in, but stannis and melisandre having sex is anything but explicit in aCoK.  so she has a shadow come out of her vagina, and therefore she had to have sex with stannis? i don't think so. Envie = 100% correct.

To put this to rest, there were a few subtle hints that Melisandre and Stannis were having sex in ACoK (he would allow his wife to touch him but did allow Melisandre, she frequently spent the nights in his tents, the shadow babies looked like Stannis, Stannis was weakened afterwards, etc.) but it's pretty specific in ASoS when Davos is in the dungeons and Melisandre comes to him.  (sorry, no page numbers as it's on my kindle version):

"Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though . . . a man whose flames still burn hot and high . . . if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make . . .”

She implies she can only conceive these shadows from a man.  She bids Davos to come to her chamber where she can give him pleasures.  What kind of pleasures could she be giving him in her chamber if not the sexual kind?  Life-fire can be a euphemism for many things, but in this instance it seems to suggest it is semen.  Yes, magic is definitely involved but magic in the series seems to be created by something of the body; blood, breath, bones, hair, semen.


ETA: Getting back to Marg, I found I enjoyed Dormer's protrayal of her even more the second time I watched the episode.  I couldn't stand her as an actress before (she is the reason I could barely get through The Tudors) so it's such a pleasant surprise.  Her acting makes me changes really work.

Edited by Dr. Pepper, 16 April 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[atia-]

I LOVED Margaery.  I never really gave a damn about book Marg, but seeing the behind-the-scenes with her, Renly and Loras gave me a newfound respect for the character.  I love how she is a game player, and will do whatever it takes to have Renly's heir.  She has no shame or problem at all with the relationship between her brother and Renly, and is just trying to deal with it practically.  Love, love love her.  Actress is also awesome.  I don't really think she's that pretty (and the low-cut gown also surprised me), but she has a certain allure to her...it sounds weird, but something about her look and swagger makes me see Olenna in her.  She is the total opposite of Asha for me this season.

Edited by dannister, 16 April 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[Triskele]

dannister, on 16 April 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

I LOVED Margaery.  I never really gave a damn about book Marg, but seeing the behind-the-scenes with her, Renly and Loras gave me a newfound respect for the character. I love how she is a game player, and will do whatever it takes to have Renly's hair.  She has no shame or problem at all with the relationship between her brother and Renly, and is just trying to deal with it practically.  Love, love love her.  Actress is also awesome.  I don't really think she's that pretty (and the low-cut gown also surprised me), but she has a certain allure to her...it sounds weird, but something about her look and swagger makes me see Olenna in her.  She is the total opposite of Asha for me this season.

That seems to be the point being made by the show creators (given, it's just one episode).  In the books I feel we are (up to this point) left largely in the dark about how Marg is.  In this episode she is portrayed as being extremely savvy about what's up.

[Lord Varys]

You can deny the implicit and explicit hints about the Stannis-Mel-relationship during ACoK-ADwD, but this would be deliberate denying of this fact. And since ADwD the non-sex thing interpretation outright impossible. At least in my opinion.
Actually, it took me some time before I ended up realizing that Stannis and Mel had a relationship.

Now we have an Mel POV. If she and Stannis are going to meet again in one of her future chapters, it's quite likely we will get a Mel-Stannis scene in the books.

I'm no fan of the reason why Stannis decided to fuck Melisandre on the Painted Table, but I'm quite sure such encounters did happen off screen in the books as well.

[Envie]

dannister, on 16 April 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

I LOVED Margaery.  I never really gave a damn about book Marg, but seeing the behind-the-scenes with her, Renly and Loras gave me a newfound respect for the character.  I love how she is a game player, and will do whatever it takes to have Renly's hair.  She has no shame or problem at all with the relationship between her brother and Renly, and is just trying to deal with it practically.  Love, love love her.  Actress is also awesome.  I don't really think she's that pretty (and the low-cut gown also surprised me), but she has a certain allure to her...it sounds weird, but something about her look and swagger makes me see Olenna in her.  She is the total opposite of Asha for me this season.

I want Renly's hair too! Err, wait.

I agree with you that casting Margaery as a much more politically savvy character makes a lot of sense for the series overall considering the short amount of time they're going to have to transition her from Renly's bride to Joffrey's betrothed and the sequence of events around both of those arranged marriages. If they are in fact cutting out the Queen of Thorns from the cast, they're definitely going to have to re-create what kind of woman Margaery is to everyone.

I always felt like she was shown as being a lot more manipulative and clever than her appearance and speech suggested in the books. I felt it was a complete ruse she had going like many other characters (Varys and Pycelle for example) to completely fool Cersei and anyone else into thinking she was a harmless pawn in the game.

[atia-]

Hah, I guess I have Loras' hair on my mind

Yes, I have always been under the impression that Olenna has brought up Margaery to be quite cunning and an excellent game player.  Especially when she yelled the truth to Cersei when they were both imprisoned.  I would hate to see Olenna cut though

[Lord Varys]

Why do people assume they will cut Olenna Redwyne Tyrell? ASoS will get two seasons, there will be more than enough space for her. And she will be fun! There is no reason why they would cut a character like her.

And Margaery being interested in motivating Renly to give her son is her job as his wife. This does not make her to Olenna 2.0. And offering to help Renly along getting this thing (i.e. threesome or 'bending over') has nothing to do with political acumen. Any queen of homosexual king would have been aware of the fact that her role at court would depend on giving birth to an heir.