75 replies to this topic

[Dr. Pepper]

Lady Hodor, on 16 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Taking that into consideration, does that mean the Others are able to be negotiated with?
Think about it, Craster is never attacked by the White Walkers, even though he's a prime target.
Maybe they leave him and his women be, because he makes them the offerings of his sons?
Which surely means that the Others have the mental and logical capacity to negotiate.

The Others have language abilities and they can create weapons so they would have the mental and logical capacity to negotiate.  It would be useful to know what language is used in negotiation.

If they are using Craster's sons as sacrifice, it seems to indicate that a sacrifice can only be 'useful' if it is freely given.  The other wildlings aren't giving away their babies and the Others aren't coming specifically for them.  Thus, they leave Craster alone because they need him.  At least, that's my best guess.

[Corvinus]

Reading this thread gave me a thought: Craster is a wight now, too, right? It seems that everybody who dies north of the Wall becomes a wight. Sam and Gilly are attacked by some of the NW brothers who were at Craster's. So Craster must out there, too. But the question is: Is he just another wight, or something more?

Also my opinion on the Others is that they were once human, but some dark sorcery (or god) changed them.

[Tyrionthebest]

Corvinus, on 17 April 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Reading this thread gave me a thought: Craster is a wight now, too, right? It seems that everybody who dies north of the Wall becomes a wight. Sam and Gilly are attacked by some of the NW brothers who were at Craster's. So Craster must out there, too. But the question is: Is he just another wight, or something more?

Also my opinion on the Others is that they were once human, but some dark sorcery (or god) changed them.

Wait, so this means the Old Bear is a wight too ?

[Black Crow]

Sevumar is right on the mark with his reference to changelings - a very strong theme in folklore where Faerie Folk take human children to raise for their own purposes - often but not invariably leaving something else in exchange to cover their tracks. Here Craster is giving his boys up willingly and interestingly in the TV version the collector didn't pick the baby up and walk off swinging it like a piece of prey, but cradled it.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

corbon, on 17 April 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

GRRM writes with limited, unreliable POVs. That means people don't know shit unless they have some means of reasonably knowing it, and just because someone believes something to be true it does not mean that it is.

I cannot see any way that the old wife actually knows anything about what happens to the babes.
The wives have seen the others (Gilly can describe the glowing blue eyes) and know that they come with the cold (or vice versa) and that that is when Craster sacrifices their sons (or sheep when sons are not available. But they almost certainly are not involved in any way with the sacrifice or with any 'deals' with the Others Craster may have made. And I really don't see Craster telling them any details if he knows (which I very much doubt). This means that the old wife cannot know what happens to the sons.
However, what she does know is that the sons are sacrificed and the mothers safety follows. This is a heinous thing. To salve their own consciences the wives have created beliefs in which the 'sons' become something more, something powerful, Others themselves even. This makes their own evil deeds (or perhaps guilty compliance with Craster's deeds is a gentler term) easier to live with.
Frankly the logistics of raising baby humans to adulthood beyond the wall is ridiculous to contemplate for the Others. And if there were any ceremonies of magic or spiritualism to transfer the babies to other bodies then they almost certainly would not be conducted anywhere where Craster or the wives could oversee, so there is no way Craster or the wives would actually know about any such thing.

Really, it beggars belief that any rational person who is not emotionally invested in such a belief can take the old wives' words seriously here. There is a perfectly logical and normal explanation available for her beliefs being wrong, and no reasonable explanation for how she could be holding this as a true knowledge.

The Others must have a need of the babies, otherwise it wouldn’t earn Craster his amnesty from them. The woman’s tone doesn’t suggest a construct to sooth collective guilt…but rather a fate worse than death for their sons. The wives seem to believe that the boys are sacrificed to give life to the Others and are suitably terrified of them. They might be wrong, or half wrong, but it’s as good (and fun) a source of speculation as any other in the books. Especially as we’ve been given so little on WW.

Black Crow said:

Sevumar is right on the mark with his reference to changelings - a very strong theme in folklore where Faerie Folk take human children to raise for their own purposes - often but not invariably leaving something else in exchange to cover their tracks. Here Craster is giving his boys up willingly and interestingly in the TV version the collector didn't pick the baby up and walk off swinging it like a piece of prey, but cradled it.

The writers & GRRM have been in chorus about their communication about the arch of ASoIaF. I imagine the big brains of the TV show know something of what the Others are, and so I agree that the WW cradling the baby boy is not an incidental detail.

[Peach Fuzz]

I think this is a major part of the story somehow. I was thinking this throught the other night. Firstly what are the others intentions with these children? are they raising them up and using them to infiltrate westeros? or are they raising them up and as they grow they turn into otthers by giving them some kind of food/potion/paste (llike bran with the weirwood paste nit saying he changed his apperance). Or are they simply executing?feeding of these babies . As someone has afore mentioned if Craster is giving them to the others it means they have negotiated in someway, and unless Craster speaks other then im not sure how this happens. This is one of the main conundrums in the books, how they came to be how they survive and have survived for 8 thousand years. Then you have there intentions . Are they really out to destroy mankind?! who knows

[SeanF]

Martin has said we'll see much more of the Others in TWOW, so I imagine we'll get the answers to these questions.

My personal view is that Craster's sons are raised in some way to become/serve the Others, in view of the comments about Gilly's son's brothers coming for him.  The story of the Night's King (and Craster's own relationship with them) suggests that communication between humans and Others can take place.

Given that Martin has revealed much of the future plot to HBO, then I agree that the scene in the Second series is significant.

[Lady Hodor]

@ Corvinus

Its never said, but I'd imagine Craster's wives would have burned his body, maybe even the NW men.
They know the rules beyond the wall, and would not leave corpses out to become WW.

[Black Crow]

corbon, on 17 April 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Really, it beggars belief that any rational person who is not emotionally invested in such a belief can take the old wives' words seriously here. There is a perfectly logical and normal explanation available for her beliefs being wrong, and no reasonable explanation for how she could be holding this as a true knowledge.

And here was me thinking that the Song of Ice and Fire is an epic Fantasy set in a world of magic and dragons, where the dead walk and the living are invested with arcane powers

[Lord Ben]

If they need  young kids to raise perhaps that's Rickons "purpose" in the story.   He gets to become Other Stark.  He's done precious little else.

Edited by Lord Ben, 17 April 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Menos Grande]

Summer/Bran ate some parts of the corpses left behind, so they sure wasn't burned... some were eaten by the wolves, but some may be alive.
If I were one of the wives I would fleed if I've know that the Others/son's of craster were coming ... but maybe the would spare the women since they are their mothers, and they did sacrificed the babies to keep them safe, so they might hold their end of the bargain and only kill the night watch that betrayed Craster.

I was thiniking if the Others also respect that law of "guest" if you share bread and salt, no harm can come to you.. the Night watch killed Craster after sharing his food, so even the "old gods" would be against them from now on, wouldn't?

[corbon]

Humphrey Plantagenet, on 17 April 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

The Others must have a need of the babies, otherwise it wouldn’t earn Craster his amnesty from them.

False logic construct. There could be any number of reasons why Craster appears to have an amnesty, most of them unrelated to any need for babies.
In fact it is a bad logic construct, demonstrably wrong, since sheep appear to do the same job. Clearly the Others do not 'need' babies, since they accept sheep in their place.

Humphrey Plantagenet, on 17 April 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

The woman’s tone doesn’t suggest a construct to sooth collective guilt…but rather a fate worse than death for their sons. The wives seem to believe that the boys are sacrificed to give life to the Others and are suitably terrified of them. They might be wrong, or half wrong, but it’s as good (and fun) a source of speculation as any other in the books. Especially as we’ve been given so little on WW.

The womans tone doesn't suggest anything except urgency and fear. Urgency to get Sam to leave and take Gilly, fear of what is coming.
There is nothing to suggest that the wives thing the sons are sacrificed to give life to the Others, only that (they believe) the sons are part of what comes with the cold.

The point is though, that right or wrong, their is no way the women could actually know that. So it must be something they have made up based on almost no information (the Others are primarily a great unknown, even to the wildlings), and therefore more likely to be wrong than anywhere close to right. Especially when the logictics simply don't work.

Leave the @&*!^%$@ series out please (or spoilerise it), it hasn't reached here yet (first episode next weekend IIRC), nor many other places.
Not that I put much credence in the series. There are many changes made, and unless they explicitly affect the overall plot (and this one need not) many changes are made just to cover missing dialogue or make things more overt, regardless of their actual truth in the books.

Black Crow, on 17 April 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

And here was me thinking that the Song of Ice and Fire is an epic Fantasy set in a world of magic and dragons, where the dead walk and the living are invested with arcane powers

Yep. But it is also 'realistic' in that characters generally don't get secret knowledge from unknowable sources. Characters get stuff wrong all the time. They put 2 and 2 together to make 7, or 3, or 5. Look at the N+A=J rumours - they make perfect sense given that people know Ned took 'his' bastard away from Starfall and Ashara committed suicide at the same time.
In this case I cannot see any plausible scenario where the wives would actually know that the son's are coming. Nor has anyone else presented one, just glossed over this point (at least not past the first couple of heresy threads). But I can see a perfectly plausible scenario where the wives believe this regardless of it being anywhere near the truth.

Basically it is not that the sons couldn't be coming, its that this is the only clue and it simply isn't credible. Without a single credible clue, the theory becomes totally speculative, as much as the idea that Sansa is the Great Other, say.

[Morrigan]

My crackpot (or maybe not-so-crackpot given there is precedent, albeit legendary, with the story of the Night's King mating with a female Other) is that the Others raise these boys and their females mate with them once they reach adulthood. Though I can't be sure why of course. I don't recall the bit about sheep being acceptable sacrifice, but if that's true, then my theory has to be wrong... unless the Others are Welsh or something. >_>


(I keed, I keed)

[Black Crow]

Menos Grande, on 17 April 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I was thinking if the Others also respect that law of "guest" if you share bread and salt, no harm can come to you.. the Night watch killed Craster after sharing his food, so even the "old gods" would be against them from now on, wouldn't?

I agree and would add a couple of points on this one

As the story is told, Craster has been giving up his sons when the White Walkers come, and lately has been buying them off with sheep because they've started coming more frequently. In other words they're not coming for his sons on demand. It therefore follows that in the past when they turned up far less frequently some of those bays may have been half grown which is one reason why the women are able to recognise them when they return as White Walkers.

Secondly, the women are anxious to get Sam, Gilly and the boy away, because they say the White Walkers - the boy's brothers, Craster's sons, are coming  But are they coming for the boy or are they coming to avenge their murdered father, and if so who summoned them?

Edited by Black Crow, 18 April 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[Black Crow]

corbon, on 17 April 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Leave the @&*!^%$@ series out please (or spoilerise it), it hasn't reached here yet (first episode next weekend IIRC), nor many other places.
Not that I put much credence in the series. There are many changes made, and unless they explicitly affect the overall plot (and this one need not) many changes are made just to cover missing dialogue or make things more overt, regardless of their actual truth in the books.
one, just glossed over this point (at least not past the first couple of heresy threads). But I can see a perfectly plausible scenario where the wives believe this regardless of it being anywhere near the truth.

The differences between the book and the series are down to the fact the latter is a visual medium. In the book Gilly tells how she's afraid her baby will be taken by the White Shadows. She describes their bright blue eyes and we then get the grinding cogs in Jon's brain as he remembers Othor and figures out who she's talking about. However with just a few seconds of screen time available its necessary to actually show it happening with another of Craster's babies. As Humphrey Plantagenet remarked above great emphasis has been placed on how much agreement there is between GRRM and the producers on where the story is going. What we're seeing is how producers are telling the story in their own medium but its still the same story.

[corbon]

Black Crow, on 18 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

As the story is told, Craster has been giving up his sons when the White Walkers come, and lately has been buying them off with sheep because they've started coming more frequently. In other words they're not coming for his sons on demand. It therefore follows that in the past when they turned up far less frequently some of those bays may have been half grown which is one reason why the women are able to recognise them when they return as White Walkers.

No it doesn't therefore follow.
We have no idea how frequently they turned up before.
We have no idea that Craster didn't start the practice off by simple abandonment of male babies and the Others found the abandoned babes and picked them up.

If any boys had lived to be 'half grown' 'waiting' for the Others to return then almost certainly the NW and other wildlings would know more about Craster's deeds. At some time some half grown kid (or even not-grown kid, like Gilly's babe) would have had an opportunity to escape (helped by the wives for sure) and succeeded.

Black Crow, on 18 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Secondly, the women are anxious to get Sam, Gilly and the boy away, because they say the White Walkers - the boy's brothers, Craster's sons, are coming  But are they coming for the boy or are they coming to avenge their murdered father, and if so who summoned them?

They are coming because they are still chasing the fleeing remnants of the NW from the Fist of the First Men.
Really!

Black Crow, on 18 April 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

The differences between the book and the series are down to the fact the latter is a visual medium. In the book Gilly tells how she's afraid her baby will be taken by the White Shadows. She describes their bright blue eyes and we then get the grinding cogs in Jon's brain as he remembers Othor and figures out who she's talking about. However with just a few seconds of screen time available its necessary to actually show it happening with another of Craster's babies.

Totally agree. However, the request remains, please spoilerise 'series' (S2) stuff, since it hasn;t gotten to everywhere yet. Some of us like to enjoy it as fresh as possible.

Black Crow, on 18 April 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

As Humphrey Plantagenet remarked above great emphasis has been placed on how much agreement there is between GRRM and the producers on where the story is going. What we're seeing is how producers are telling the story in their own medium but its still the same story.

Right. But the point is that if it isn't 'important' to the main storylines then there will be changes because of the different mediums. And such a thing as this quite probably isn't important to the main storylines (given we've had almost nothing from 5 books about this). So a change can't be taken as too important (though we can't be certain it is not important either).
For example, IIRC Syrio in the series had a religious element introduced that wasn't there in the books I think. IMO that shows the series will make he FM/Bravosi God of Death religion a more general thing and combine it as a cultural marker, which they can do because although its fascinating to many here, its not a critical storyline element.

[Black Crow]

corbon, on 18 April 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Right. But the point is that if it isn't 'important' to the main storylines then there will be changes because of the different mediums. And such a thing as this quite probably isn't important to the main storylines (given we've had almost nothing from 5 books about this). So a change can't be taken as too important (though we can't be certain it is not important either).
For example, IIRC Syrio in the series had a religious element introduced that wasn't there in the books I think. IMO that shows the series will make he FM/Bravosi God of Death religion a more general thing and combine it as a cultural marker, which they can do because although its fascinating to many here, its not a critical storyline element.

I disagree. The importance of the series is that it is telling the true story, but from a different perspective due to the different medium, and its because its coming from a different perspective that we're picking up additional insights and confirmation of what some of us have believed for some time.

[Lady Hodor]

@ Morrigen

I don't think that theory is so crackpot. It could easily be true. But where are they keeping the female Others? We've never seen them.
Unless, like others have suggested on this thread, there's one "Queen Bee" Other that pops out a few hundred each time.

Plus, why you hatin' on Welsh peeps?

[corbon]

Black Crow, on 18 April 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I disagree. The importance of the series is that it is telling the true story, but from a different perspective due to the different medium, and its because its coming from a different perspective that we're picking up additional insights and confirmation of what some of us have believed for some time.

We'll agree to disagree then.
The are quite clearly changes in the series due to 'medium'. They are not just for the purposes of giving additional insight and confirmation as shown by the aforementioned Bravosi religion thing.

[Jem]

My take on Craster is that his 'sacrificing' his sons is simply away of getting rid of any male competition. His womenfolk are too frightened and too dependent on him to object and are too ignorant to disbelieve Craster's version of what is going on.

I think it is one of those 'correlation does not imply causation' type scenarios. Craster wants to dump his baby boys and, for whatever reason, The Others stay away. The Others may be staying away for any number of reasons (eg, they may be massing in another area to plan their attack on the south, or, Mance's huge band of freefolk may have attracted The Other's to that region instead).

It is just convenient for Craster to tell his women that their sacrifice is keeping The Others at bay. I doubt that Craster has some sort of contract with The Others saying that he will supply X number of baby boys per year and Y number of goats in order to keep The Others away. I'd say it is far more likely that wild animals are taking the babies, either that or their little bodies are buried under snowdrifts.

I think that it is a shame that...

[TV series 2 spoiler]

Spoiler

the show is eradicating any kind of ambiguity on this subject. Obviously the creators wanted to go with the idea that Craster definitely was giving his sons to The Others. I don't know why, I guess this is just the way they interpreted the text.

Being a visual medium leaves less room for guess work, and I think that a lot of book adaptions to TV or movies suffer when the creators have to make an either/or decision about something. Forever more now in the book discussions, people are going to be more inclined to believe what they saw on the show, rather than come to their own conclusion.