75 replies to this topic

[High Valyrian]

Apple Martini, on 16 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

I hope the Craster thing is explained at some point. I can't tell if the sons "grow up" to become others (which is kind of implied?) or if they're a "sacrifice." But if they're a sacrifice, it still has to be for some purpose. Why does it benefit the Others to kill the boys?

Jem, on 18 April 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

My take on Craster is that his 'sacrificing' his sons is simply away of getting rid of any male competition. His womenfolk are too frightened and too dependent on him to object and are too ignorant to disbelieve Craster's version of what is going on.

I think it is one of those 'correlation does not imply causation' type scenarios. Craster wants to dump his baby boys and, for whatever reason, The Others stay away. The Others may be staying away for any number of reasons (eg, they may be massing in another area to plan their attack on the south, or, Mance's huge band of freefolk may have attracted The Other's to that region instead).

It is just convenient for Craster to tell his women that their sacrifice is keeping The Others at bay. I doubt that Craster has some sort of contract with The Others saying that he will supply X number of baby boys per year and Y number of goats in order to keep The Others away. I'd say it is far more likely that wild animals are taking the babies, either that or their little bodies are buried under snowdrifts.

Jem's response is exactly what I wanted to say, worded much more succinctly than anything I could have written.

[corbon]

Jem, on 18 April 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

My take on Craster is that his 'sacrificing' his sons is simply away of getting rid of any male competition. His womenfolk are too frightened and too dependent on him to object and are too ignorant to disbelieve Craster's version of what is going on.

I think it is one of those 'correlation does not imply causation' type scenarios. Craster wants to dump his baby boys and, for whatever reason, The Others stay away. The Others may be staying away for any number of reasons (eg, they may be massing in another area to plan their attack on the south, or, Mance's huge band of freefolk may have attracted The Other's to that region instead).

It is just convenient for Craster to tell his women that their sacrifice is keeping The Others at bay. I doubt that Craster has some sort of contract with The Others saying that he will supply X number of baby boys per year and Y number of goats in order to keep The Others away. I'd say it is far more likely that wild animals are taking the babies, either that or their little bodies are buried under snowdrifts.

While I generally agree, it is clear that the wives have at least seen the Others (Gilly tells Sam of the glowing blue eyes) and recognise the signs of their presence (the old wife knows they are coming because the cold rises, and Gilly says much the same earlier).
So there does seem to be some sort of connection going on, even if it is just a vry basic "the cold comes, Craster leaves a son, the Others are seen froma  distance and the cold leaves and the son is gone" sort of thing.
Or even possibly Craster does have some sort of basic deal, or so he believes, with the 'gods' (Others).

Jem, on 18 April 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I think that it is a shame that...

[TV series 2 spoiler]

Spoiler

the show is eradicating any kind of ambiguity on this subject. Obviously the creators wanted to go with the idea that Craster definitely was giving his sons to The Others. I don't know why, I guess this is just the way they interpreted the text.

[TV series 2 spoiler]

Spoiler

I don't think it eradicated too much ambiguity. All we saw was Craster take something into the woods, then separately the apparent clicking noise that seems to be being used for Other language, then Craster comes back empty handed, the an Other is seen picking up the bundle. It could easily still be just Craster 'abandoning' the babe to the 'gods', who take the babe away and kill it elsewhere. Or any one of a number of other interpretations. Plenty of ambiguity there still.

[Menos Grande]

The Death of Craster is what trigged the Walkers to come.. they would never come whem he was alive, and appeared just as he died. I think two things might have happenned:
1) They are really avenging Craster... maybe it was part of the aggrement to protect Craster, or they are still his son in some way.. and even though they are bad they 'll still avenge him! Maybe if they're not his sons they would still avenge him cause he would give them sacrifices so there was some quid pro co.

2) They COULD NOT come to Craster house while he was alive, a spell, or maybe a contract? Because of craster's sacrifices the Walkers would never enter his house while he was alive (just like vampires... supernatural beings some times have this kind of laws...), but as he died they sundenly were able to enter his house... so they entered just because they could do it now, not that they had some kind of sorrow feeling of losing Craster, just that now they are able to enter, so they did it.. just like if ever the wall falls they will go south, just because they'll be able to do it.

Edited by Menos Grande, 18 April 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[Howling Mad]

aSoS page 459: "The boys brothers," sais the old women on the left. "Craster's sons the white colds rising out there, crow.  I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie.  They'll be here soon, the sons."

According to the above quote Craster's wives/daughter believe the Others to be Craster's sons and Gilly's baby's brothers.  Either we can take the text as face value or subscribed to the theory that whatever you are directly told by the text is a lie or misconception.

IIRC there is another passage that describes the Others as being able to sense "warm blood" especially the fresh life of a newborn.  If that's the case perhaps the Others obtain power from sucking the lifeforce out of Craster's sons.  GRRM did write a novel about vampires once, uhm...

[Jem]

Howling4Reed, on 18 April 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

aSoS page 459: "The boys brothers," sais the old women on the left. "Craster's sons the white colds rising out there, crow.  I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie.  They'll be here soon, the sons."

According to the above quote Craster's wives/daughter believe the Others to be Craster's sons and Gilly's baby's brothers.  Either we can take the text as face value or subscribed to the theory that whatever you are directly told by the text is a lie or misconception.

IIRC there is another passage that describes the Others as being able to sense "warm blood" especially the fresh life of a newborn.  If that's the case perhaps the Others obtain power from sucking the lifeforce out of Craster's sons.  GRRM did write a novel about vampires once, uhm...

I definitely believe that Craster's wives believe that The Others are Craster's sons. I just don't believe that they are right.

[Howling Mad]

Jem, on 18 April 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

I definitely believe that Craster's wives believe that The Others are Craster's sons. I just don't believe that they are right.

Proving once again that Samwell Tarly is an idiot, in addition to being craven, by failing to gather whatever information he could from Craster's wives/daughters about their knowledge of the Others.

[corbon]

Howling4Reed, on 18 April 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

According to the above quote Craster's wives/daughter believe the Others to be Craster's sons and Gilly's baby's brothers.  Either we can take the text as face value or subscribed to the theory that whatever you are directly told by the text is a lie or misconception.

Neither.
If you follow either rule strictly then you'll come unstuck. Martin uses limited knowledge POVs. If people actually know the truth, and aren't lying deliberately, then their text will be true. If they don't actually know the truth (even, or especially, if they think they do) then their text will be false or misleading.
So you need to examine what people are saying, think about what they could or should actually know about, whether what they say fits other data, or personalities etc etc.

In this case, it doesn't make sense that the old wife could actually know about the sons becoming Others (if they did), nor does it make logistical sense that the babies become others.
Perhaps they are being used to raise (feed) ice spiders (as are the sheep)?

[Lady Hodor]

@ Menos Grande

While I like the idea, I dont imagine that GRRM would sink so sterotypical in his story, he never has before.

[Quiet Isle]

I have read a lot about the mythologies and theories on Craster and his sons.  I believe that the OTHERS take them and plant them into Mother Earth to create more OTHERS.  It is a combination of human and the natural world.

[jblair]

Richard Rivers, on 16 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Yeah there has to be more to Craster, as I am assuming the Others could probably just take babies from other wildling village if they really needed them.

But if Craster has some Other blood, then it would make a lot more sense that HIS children would be the only targets.

[Sam Huxley]

Old Nan says in A Game of Thrones 'They feed their dead servants on the flesh of human children...' before being cut off by Maester Luwin entering the room. His children, along with (I'm guessing) a lot of other wildling children are the ones that keep the wights fighting fit to kill normal humans

[Makes No Sansa]

If this is true, could Gilly's son be some kind of casus belli between the Others and Westeros? What if he's a prince after all? They think he is a prince because Jon exchanged him with Val's son, so Craster's son is in the Wall. The others could come claim him. What if he's the Great Other?

[Champion of R'hllor]

Benjen is the new Night's King and gave his soul to the Ice Queen.

[Widows Wail]

The theories about Craster being an Other don't make much sense, why does he get killed so easily by a regular sword then? I like the theory that life is paid with death, the lives of the sons give life to the Others, allows the others to resurrect dead bodies. I hope we get more of this in the Winds of Winter!!

[Ser Lepus]

Ser Lepus, on 05 February 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

I think they console themselves saying each other that their children keep living as Cold Gods, but in fact the Others eat the children. Craster gave them sheeps and dogs as tribute too, remember? He gives them male babies first because he doesn't want those and would kill them anyway.

[Sam Huxley]

The Other's feed themselves on the babies of the wildlings; Old Nan said that in one of her stories and GRRM has stated that all of what Old Nan says is true.  The daughters and wives of Craster believe the Others are the sons, only because they are around now.  They obviously don't know that the White Walkers were around thousands of years before, unless someone is going to be stupid enough to say that Craster is an Other...