50 replies to this topic

[Lokii]

I haven't posted on here much, but I've been part of the forums for a while and like reading your discussions. So I got to wondering whether you guys thought Stannis's conversion to the red faith helped or hurt his cause. On one hand, for his supporters it gives him a divine right to the throne and an assurance that he'll win, and I know that kind of morale helps alot. But on the other hand, he requires people to reject the gods they've been raised with, and it gives his enemies a way to denounce him as a demon worshiper.

Thoughts?

[chris999]

Mellisandre is evil. Stannis was so full of hatred and jealousy of his brother Renly, that she manipulated Stannis into selling his soul to the demon god, and he will have to pay for it with his life unfortunately.

The Old Gods are the true Gods.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I think Melisandre is bad news. The moment Stannis gets rid of her is the moment he wins.

[chris999]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 16 April 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

I think Melisandre is bad news. The moment Stannis gets rid of her is the moment he wins.

Unfortunately. I think it will be the other way around. I think that Melissandre will be the one getting rid of Stannis, once he is no longer useful to her.

She is the one running the show.

Edited by chris999, 16 April 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

chris999, on 16 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Unfortunately. I think it will be the other way around. I think that Melissandre will be the one getting rid of Stannis, once he is no longer useful to her.

She is the one running the show.

I hope not, Melisandre is a succubus. I hope she digs her claws into Jon Snow. She is perhaps my least favorite character. I hope since she is at the wall and he moving on Winterfell that they are far enough part.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

I don't think Melisandre is eeeevil per say, she's just so devoted to the Red God that it misguides her, but ultimately her intentions are good. She's like the damphair but not as bad imo

[David Selig]

He'd have been dead a long time ago. If not for the shadow baby, Renly's army would've crushed his at Storm's End.

[Ser Malthred Stark]

chris999, on 16 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Unfortunately. I think it will be the other way around. I think that Melissandre will be the one getting rid of Stannis, once he is no longer useful to her.

She is the one running the show.

I severely doubt this. No matter how evil you see her as being, you have to admit that she is very devoted to Rhollor. She belives that Stannis is Azor Ahai (even mentioned in

Spoiler

her pov

, so why would she ever want him out of the way?

Edited by Ser Malthred Stark, 16 April 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[chris999]

Ser Malthred Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I severely doubt this. No matter how evil you see her as being, you have to admit that she is very devoted to Rhollor. She belives that Stannis is Azor Ahai (even mentioned in [spoilers] her pov[/spoiler], so why would she ever want him out of the way?

Who is to say that R'yllor, or even Azor Ahai is "good"?

Depends on what side of the battle you are on. Personally, I choose to like the Starks more than the Targaryans, and I think that they are going to be on opposite sides of the war.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Helped his cause to be king.  Without it, there is Renly and his 100 thousand, King of the North that Stannis won't ally with, Vale that Lysa won't ally with Stannis and will just stay away from the war, Lannisters who are his enemies and stole his crown. Melisandre gave him an army at the very least and a chance.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 16 April 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Fire Eater]

He hurt his cause by instead of just choosing the Faith of R'hollor, he lets Melisandre have her way in burning the sept and the godswood saying the Lord of Light is the only god, instead of just letting people practice the faiths they choose.

Edited by Fire Eater, 26 September 2012 - 11:40 PM.

[master]

on one hand he got mels magic. on the other he got the hatred of everyone she tried to convert. everyone hated stannis in the beginning so it doesnt seem that much of a problem.

[Horza]

Mel is the only thing he's got. Without her he's an uninspiring, undiplomatic, self-pitying jerk with a small army.

[Ser Malthred Stark]

Fire Eater, on 16 April 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

He hurt his cause by instead of choosing the Faith of R'hollor, he lets Melisandre have her way in burning the sept and the godswood instead of just letting people practice the faiths they choose.

  I really hope that Melsandre leaves Stannis' presence, I really want Stannis to win, but she is ruining who he is.

[Leviathan I]

Horza, on 16 April 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Mel is the only thing he's got. Without her he's an uninspiring, undiplomatic, self-pitying jerk with a small army.

You obviously haven't read A Dance With Dragons...

[Howling Mad]

chris999, on 16 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Mellisandre is evil. Stannis was so full of hatred and jealousy of his brother Renly, that she manipulated Stannis into selling his soul to the demon god, and he will have to pay for it with his life unfortunately.

The Old Gods are the true Gods.

I like your thinking.

[Horza]

Leviathan I, on 16 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

You obviously haven't read A Dance With Dragons...

Weird, that's what was on the cover, maybe it was a different book...

I guess we'll never know...  

ellipsisellipsisellipsis...

Edited by Horza, 16 April 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

In the long run Melisandre hasn't exactly helped Stannis' cause.  She killed Renly and Penrose but Stannis didn't exactly gain all of his followers. The big powerhouse, the Tyrells, allied with the Lannisters as quickly as possible while many that went over to Stannis either died or bent the knee to Joffrey after the Blackwater.  She threw some leeches into the fires and said some king's names and later those kings died but they were simply replaced by other 'usurpers'.  Besides, Balon, Joffrey and Robb's deaths were long in the planning before she toss some bloody leeches on the fires.

And at the end of ADWD,

Spoiler

Melisandre isn't exactly enjoying the position of power and control she once was.  When she hears Jon read 'Ramsay's' letter, she flees the hall where normally she would have spoken up and told them all to basically keep faith and then her Queen's Men are running amok terrorizing giants and such.

Those that have remained with Stannis don't really have much choice.  Most of their lands and titles have been taken and given away by Joffrey or they had none before and were given promises of land and title by Stannis.  If they abandon him, where exactly would they go?

It's difficult to say whether or not Stannis would have been even worse off without Melisandre but I don't believe he's any better off because of her.

[atia-]

I remember when Davos was almost at the Red Keep during the Battle of Blackwater, he thought something along the lines of how if Stannis had the regular Baratheon banner instead of a foreign one with an odd fiery heart, people would be cheering for them instead of being against them, and I think he had a very valid point.

Meli gives Stannis an edge in some ways too though....something different.  I think Selyse was converted and brought it to Stannis, who was really desperate and saw possibility of political gain in it.  She doesn't really have appeared to have helped him much (Davos has helped him so much more, for example), but he is only surviving king of the War of the Five Kings.  Whether or not that has to do with Meli though remains to be seen.

[salt]

Stannis's didn't convert to anything.  He didn't have a religion before Melisandre, and he doesn't have one now.

We know Stannis doesn't believe in or care about gods, but he is pragmatic enough to realize that with 5,000 men he wasn't going to take the throne with swords and spears alone, and he knows Mel has power. Mel doesn't control Stannis or determine what he does, every major action Stannis had taken (declaring himself king, trying to take the capital, going to the Wall) has been exactly what he would have done had Mel never existed- the only difference is, without her powers he wouldn't have gotten as far, and may have been dead by now (if he isn't).

As for Mel being "evil", I don't think we see much proof of that.  I don't like her either, but the things is, she is one of the few people in Westeros who knows what we have known since the first chapter of the first book- that there is a threat coming that far overshadows everything else happening in the world.  After her POV chapter its very hard to call ol' Melony evil, it made it pretty clear that she genuinely believes in what she says, and that she think shes doing it to stop the Great Other from covering the world in darkness and dearth.



A few quotes for anyone who still believes that Stannis is a R'hllor fanatic in the palm of Mel's hand:

Quote

“Your god can keep his grace,” said Lord Stannis, who did not share his wife’s fervent new faith. “It’s swords I need, not blessings.”

Talking about the Red Wedding:

Quote

“It was the Lord’s wrath that slew him,” Ser Axell Florent declared. “It was the hand of R’hllor!”
“Praise the Lord of Light!” sang out Queen Selyse, a pinched thin hard woman with large ears and a hairy upper lip.
“Is the hand of R’hllor spotted and palsied?” asked Stannis. “This sounds more Walder Frey’s handiwork than any god’s.”

Quote

“Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!” Stannis gave a derisive snort. “It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel.”

Melisandre thinking about Jon and Stannis:

Quote

Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

Davos looking at Stannis at a Nightfire:

Quote

He is with them, but not of them, Davos thought.

And of course:

Quote

“I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.”

Edited by salt, 16 April 2012 - 11:49 PM.