134 replies to this topic

[A Free Shadow]

jarl the climber, on 17 April 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

What hand do they show her using on the show.

Right for a needle, left for THE Needle.

[waaimasjien]

Yes, I still want a complete list of all subtleties in all books, I'm sure I missed a ton of 'em. There was a similar topic in January, and I seem to remember another one more recently, but can't find it right now.

Overall:
- R+L=J - http://asoiaf.wester.../60327-rlj-v18/

AGOT
- The conspirers in the dungeons are Varys and Illyrio
- Varys' little birds are in fact children (confirmed in ADWD)
- The black one-eyed cat Arya chases is Balerion, Rhaenys' (daughter of Rheagar and Elia) kitten. (In ADWD, it bothers Tommens kittens)

ACOK
- Arstan Whitebeard is Barristan Selmy
- Renly and Loras are lovers - http://asoiaf.wester...oras-and-renly/


ASOS


AFFC
- The gravedigger at the Quiet Island is Sandor Clegane - http://asoiaf.wester...s-dead-isnt-he/
- Pate is Jaquen H'ghar or at the very least, a faceless man - http://asoiaf.wester...icance-of-pate/
- Qyburn is creating unGregor - http://asoiaf.wester...c/58237-qyburn/
- Alleras the Sphinx is Sarella Sand - http://www.towerofth...ant_/index.html
- The coin Pate gets from the alchemist is poisoned, causing his death when he bites it.
- Brienne is a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall

ADWD
- Abel(=Bael) is Mance Rayder - http://asoiaf.wester...-in-winterfell/
- Manderly baked the three Frey guys into meat pies - http://asoiaf.wester...frey-pie-thing/
- The Green Grace = The Harpy - http://asoiaf.wester...e-is-the-harpy/
- Tyrion kills Nurse with the poisoned mushrooms
- The coin Arya gave the man she was supposed to kill was poisoned, causing his death.
- The Three-eyed-crow is Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven
- The vision Bran has of a very tall knight kissing a woman in the Godswood was possibly Ser Duncan and some relative that falls between Old Nan and Hodor on the family tree.
- It's possible Jojen Reeds blood was in the weirwood paste Bran ate to become a greenseer. - http://asoiaf.wester...-adwd-spoilers/
- The man taking Tyrion captive is Ser Jorah Mormont.

Edited by waaimasjien, 17 April 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Wyman's Man]

jarl the climber, on 17 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Has GRRM confirmed this in an interveiw, how do we know that Manderly just didn't feed them to the pigs that were put into the pie, Roose mentions that he brought some live pigs with him among his foodstuffs. I can deal with this better than the Freys being eaten directly.

He mentioned something to the effect at his Eastercon interview that, "something was fishy about Lord Manderly's pies."

[Bride of Winter]

not a subtlety, but it took me a good half of ACOK to realize that Arya's version of "needlework" was practicing with Needle. I seriously thought she was going into the forest to sew...

Edited by Bride of Winter, 17 April 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[DannySpud]

waaimasjien, on 17 April 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

- Arstan Whitebeard is Barristan Selmy

- Qyburn is creating unGregor - http://asoiaf.wester...c/58237-qyburn/

- The man taking Tyrion captive is Ser Jorah Mormont.

Are these even questions? Sure Arstan's identity is not clear at first it is revealed later. UnGregor/Robert Strong was really obvious and practically stated outright. The last one is made clear within the same book.

Edited by DannySpud, 17 April 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[DaveSumm]

I completely forgot about all the references to the Faceless Men being assasins, then when Arya joined them I just thought they were a broad umbrella religion. Can't wait to re-read those bits. Do'h!

Still don't really grasp how you can just call all the religions your religion.......or how this related to killing people........yea, need to re-read Feast......

[Jaehaerys Sand]

I think you should say 'Sandor is probably on Quiet Isle' until it's confirmed.

Oh, and the Alchemist is definitely Jaqen. If you look up the description of the man JH changed into when he left Harrenhal, it's the same one as the alchemist.

Additional ones:

Melisandre did nothing with the leeches. She just foresaw the deaths and took credit for them.

Patchface is a prophet.

[DaveSumm]

What further evidence is revealed to suggest Mel did nothing with the leeches? It's as open to speculation as much as it was when it happened surely?

[Ghostwriter]

DaveSumm, on 17 April 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

This would be a really cool and helpful thing to add to the wiki, possibly in each of the chapter entries in 'chapter summaries'. One HEEEEEEELLLLLLLLL of an undertaking though. Plus, there'd be the question of how much information to put there: when the tale of the Harrenhal tourney is told to Bran by the Reeds, do you leave it at who all the  people are, or go on to explain its relevance to R+L=J? Do you add information about forthcoming events?

I'd say to keep it simpler, you'd have to aim it at people who are on their first read (even though most won't be), so the first chapter would contain pretty much nothing because there's really nothing you could have missed. So stuff like 'Roose killed Robb', 'Frey Pies', stuff that could conceivably be noticed on the first read as it relied only on past events.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who reads these 'what did you miss' threads every time they come around, picks up a few that weren't in the last thread and wishes they were collated somewhere. Plus, it'd be a good way of making sure you'd completely absorbed every subtlety there is once and for all.

Yes i would love to have everything compiled, thats exactly why i made this post.

and thanks to everyone for contributing so far! I've seen a few things i missed before already, so keep them coming!

[Prince of the North]

NomadicDirewolf, on 17 April 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

coldhands isnt benjen by the way, he said he'd been around the way he is for many years, and if he were benjen it would be less than two years

Well, this is still very much up for debate.  The kids were concerned for Coldhands' safety with regard to the wights and the CotF Leaf answers "Don't worry, they killed him long ago."  Now, just what was meant by "long ago" in that quote or just how long ago that actually was is still very much up in the air

[Eyron I]

jarl the climber, on 17 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Has GRRM confirmed this in an interveiw, how do we know that Manderly just didn't feed them to the pigs that were put into the pie, Roose mentions that he brought some live pigs with him among his foodstuffs. I can deal with this better than the Freys being eaten directly.

I think it was GRRM's editor that made a slip when confronted with a question about ways people had been killed in the story, she confirmed that "pie" was one way some had died. Can't be nothing else than Frey pie...

When I read the wedding feast scene I was wondering about the three huge pies, and why Manderly was so ridiculously happy eating them and I was thinking at first that he had poisoned them, and sacrificed himself to kill off as many Freys and Bolton men as he could, but it didn't add up since everyone was eating of those pies, a hell of a sacrifice in that case. Then l was reminded of how three Freys went "missing" and how he had hinted that something bad would happen to them in Davos chapter in White Harbor and well, Frey pie came to mind

[Eyron I]

Wyman, on 17 April 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

He mentioned something to the effect at his Eastercon interview that, "something was fishy about Lord Manderly's pies."

Since you are here, did Wyman tell you by any chance?

[Eyron I]

waaimasjien, The girl the tall man (Dunk) is kissing in Brans vision is probably Old Nan herself, it would fit age-wise.

[DaveSumm]

Never been a fan of Coldhands=Benjen. I don't see why Coldhands needs a second function: he demonstrates that there are non-evil Others, why does he also need to be someone? Plus Bran not recognising him is a big con to the theory. I could personally see Benjen ending up like Silvio in Sopranos: left forever in limbo.

All these threads tend to focus on the larger misses, but it'd be great to have all the smaller ones rounded up. I only just realised in my current reading of aSoS that Cotter Pyke is so named because he's an Iron Island bastard, hence his resentment of Denys Mallister (from Seagard, closest to Pyke) and hence their posts at opposite ends of the wall.

[Greenseer Stark]

DaveSumm, on 17 April 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

What further evidence is revealed to suggest Mel did nothing with the leeches? It's as open to speculation as much as it was when it happened surely?

Agreed. To my knowledge no further evidence is suggested, so in my book is still open for speculation. Would be interesting to see if Melisandre does another thing like this in the next book and that might help give this argument some creedence.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Prince of the North, on 17 April 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Well, this is still very much up for debate.  The kids were concerned for Coldhands' safety with regard to the wights and the CotF Leaf answers "Don't worry, they killed him long ago."  Now, just what was meant by "long ago" in that quote or just how long ago that actually was is still very much up in the air

Don't think there's much to debate here.  CotF live for hundreds of years.  Their concept of "long ago" would almost certainly extend way beyond 2 years ago.  For them 2 years is almost yesterday.

In context, it is reasonable to conclude that Coldhands died much more than 2 years ago, and so he is not Benjen.

On the other hand, it is conceivable that the CotF Leaf chose her words carelessly or illogically and that Coldhands did die 2 years ago and is Benjen.  But there is no strong reason to believe this.

Coldhands is not Benjen.  Benjen most likely survived the Others' attack on his ranging party and possibly went north to investigate the threat.  There is evidence in the books of Benjen's survival.  (That's another thread.)  Perhaps he died sometime later, but I think we'll see Ben again in TWoW, either alive or dead, and we will learn a lot from him about the threat of the Others.

[Patchface12]

In Tyrion's Dance chapters, someone mentioned the book 'Death of Dragons' being a book locked away in the Citadel at Oldtown. Jaqen got a key from Pate. The Faceless men are from Braavos and the Braavosi hate dragons. Its lightly hinted that this was what he stole

As for Pate being Jaqen, the subtlety could also be that Marywn brought Pate back to life via magical means. He did know Mirri Maz Duur.

Also, they mentioned strange ships in the Stepstones in Ser Kevan's epilogue. Could this be Aurane Waters?

[Prince of the North]

A Bong of Ice and Fire, on 17 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Don't think there's much to debate here.  CotF live for hundreds of years.  Their concept of "long ago" would almost certainly extend way beyond 2 years ago.  For them 2 years is almost yesterday.

Oh, there's definitely room for debate.  Here you're assuming that Leaf is talking in the context of what would be "long ago" for her.  The simple truth is we won't know the context with certainty until Martin tells us.

A Bong of Ice and Fire, on 17 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

In context, it is reasonable to conclude that Coldhands died much more than 2 years ago, and so he is not Benjen.

Once again, you and I don't know for sure what Leaf meant by "long ago".  I could just as easily say that Leaf, cognizant of how short-lived humans are, merely put the time frame in terms that applied to them.  A couple of years is a long time for pre-teen and teen humans.  Hell, that's what I find myself doing with my 6 and 4 year olds from time to time when we talk about things that happened a few years ago.  I understand that what's a short time for me is a very long time for them.  Not that I necessarily think that's what happened in this case but my point is that this possible explanation is just as legitimate as anything right now.

A Bong of Ice and Fire, on 17 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

On the other hand, it is conceivable that the CotF Leaf chose her words carelessly or illogically and that Coldhands did die 2 years ago and is Benjen.  But there is no strong reason to believe this.

Yep, I'm with you here.  I don't think Leaf was illogical or careless.

A Bong of Ice and Fire, on 17 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Coldhands is not Benjen.  

OK, you've made a statement of fact here - prove it

A Bong of Ice and Fire, on 17 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Benjen most likely survived the Others' attack on his ranging party and possibly went north to investigate the threat.  There is evidence in the books of Benjen's survival.  (That's another thread.)  Perhaps he died sometime later, but I think we'll see Ben again in TWoW, either alive or dead, and we will learn a lot from him about the threat of the Others.

Why do you think Benjen "most likely" survived the Other's attack?  I mean, other experienced rangers were killed but Benjen survived?  Why?  Because he's a Stark and, therefore, better than the other rangers, etc.?  I think I may know what you're alluding to when you say you think there's evidence that Benjen survived but I'd be very interested if you'd detail it.

For now, I believe Coldhands is Benjen and he was resurrected by the TEC as an ally/assistant in the same way that Donderrion and Stoneheart were brought back (i.e. sorcery).  His extremeties suffered from extreme frostbite before he was raised - hence the cold, hard, black hands.  Coldhands even explains this.  Also, if Coldhands is someone the kids wouldn't know then why hide his face?  I guess it could be a wound or something but there's also no indication of that.  I'm always open to new, good arguments and information but this is what I think for now.

ETA:  To try to add something that is actually on topic.  I believe the Hooded Man in Winterfell was none other than Theon/Reek's own reflection in the glass of the Glass Gardens.  He was walking toward his own reflection while having an internal dialogue between his sort of "split personalities"

Edited by Prince of the North, 17 April 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[CrypticWeirwood]

DaveSumm, on 17 April 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Never been a fan of Coldhands=Benjen. I don't see why Coldhands needs a second function: he demonstrates that there are non-evil Others, why does he also need to be someone?

Several reasons that doesn’t work. There is no evidence at all that there are “non-evil Others”, whatever that means.

First, you mean a non-evil wight, or ice revenant; basically, a zombie. The Others are something else completely different, tall and thin and quick, surpassingly pale, with piercing blue eyes; they seem to have their own language. The wights are reanimated dead humans, although they also have strangely blue eyes, but they are not quick.  Wights are not harmed by dragonglass, and need to be either minced into tiny bits or else burned to be truly killed. Wights do not speak.

Coldhands is clearly a member of the Night’s Watch; he even calls Sam “brother”.  He does have the characteristic black hands of a dead man, but  he does not have the strangely blue eyes of the ice wights.  In fluency of speech and of movement, he seems like the ranger he once was before the wights killed him, not like the ice zombies who did the deed.

However, I agree that he’s not going to wind up being Benjen Stark.  I believe he was one of the rangers who “long ago” accompanied their Lord Commander to the strange weirwood-protected cave where he now lives on his weirwood throne. I believe that only Brynden made it through to the Children’s protection, and that the ranger whom Sam calls Coldhands fell in his Lord Commander’s defence.  That happened long ago.

However, whether due to the Children and their greenseers, or whether because of Brynden’s own powers of sorcery (remember: he glamoured himself up to look like  Ser Maynard Plumm; that’s not a greenseer ability; it’s sorcery, focused on a gemstone), the dead ranger was not raised up as a mindless wight after dead, but simply as himself.  He is his own agent, perhaps still bound in duty to his Lord Commander. It looks like death did not release him from his oath to be the sword in the darkness.

His eyes and speech and movement all say that he is a different thing to the wights. But he is still dead, which is why he cannot pass the wards that protect Bran and Brynden and company, nor through the wards in the Wall at the Nightfort.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 17 April 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Wyman's Man]

CrypticWeirwood, on 17 April 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Several reasons that doesn’t work. There is no evidence at all that there are “non-evil Others”, whatever that means.

First, you mean a non-evil wight, or ice revenant; basically, a zombie. The Others are something else completely different, tall and thin and quick, surpassingly pale, with piercing blue eyes; they seem to have their own language. The wights are reanimated dead humans, although they also have strangely blue eyes, but they are not quick.  Wights are not harmed by dragonglass, and need to be either minced into tiny bits or else burned to be truly killed. Wights do not speak.

Coldhands is clearly a member of the Night’s Watch; he even calls Sam “brother”.  He does have the characteristic black hands of a dead man, but  he does not have the strangely blue eyes of the ice wights.  In fluency of speech and of movement, he seems like the ranger he once was before the wights killed him, not like the ice zombies who did the deed.

However, I agree that he’s not going to wind up being Benjen Stark.  I believe he was one of the rangers who “long ago” accompanied their Lord Commander to the strange weirwood-protected cave where he now lives on his weirwood throne. I believe that only Brynden made it through to the Children’s protection, and that the ranger whom Sam calls Coldhands fell in his Lord Commander’s defence.  That happened long ago.

However, whether due to the Children and their greenseers, or whether because of Brynden’s own powers of sorcery (remember: he glamoured himself up to look like  Ser Maynard Plumm; that’s not a greenseer ability; it’s sorcery, focused on a gemstone), the dead ranger was not raised up as a mindless wight after dead, but simply as himself.  He is his own agent, perhaps still bound in duty to his Lord Commander. It looks like death did not release him from his oath to be the sword in the darkness.

His eyes and speech and movement all say that he is a different thing to the wights. But he is still dead, which is why he cannot pass the wards that protect Bran and Brynden and company, nor through the wards in the Wall at the Nightfort.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but when did he glamour himself up as Ser Maynard Plumm. I did read the Mystery Knight, but no where in that novella did I see proof of that.