134 replies to this topic

[Evamitchelle]

Some foreshadowing I missed on a first read :

- The Lord of the Crossing game that the two Walder Frey play at Winterfell in ACoK where saying "mayhaps" nullifies any oaths taken. Lord Walder says it to Robb just before the RW happens.
- "Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name" in AGoT.

Also Arya is able to warg cats in ADwD, which is how she's able to tell who's attacking her.

bikie, on 19 April 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

and not sure about ghost howling with jon, can't remember any specific events

Ghost never howls, he's mute...

[ARYa_Nym]

Eaeron I, on 19 April 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

That is the evidence we have that she is a CotF. I don't think it is conclusive, but that is a matter of opinion I suppose.


Yes, I mentioned in my post that he thinks she look like a human child from a distance. But when he sees Leaf up close, she could not be mistaken for human and that is straight from Bran's thoughts.
We get to see the Ghost of High Heart up close and she does not look like a CotF.


I also said she could be a CotF glamored up in my post... Still, from the way she looks, she does not look much like a CotF which was the matter I was responding to. To say that she looks like a CotF and that makes it possible that Old Nan is a CotF is not a good argument to me.

Albinos also have red eyes in Martin world, seen in Ghost and Bloodraven.

The weirwood whispers in most ears when they sleep on them, Theon, Jaime to mention other cases of weirwood dreams.

Based on this I think it's possible she is a glamored CotF, but I don't think it has been confirmed in any way. I didn't find the hints subtle, but maybe that is because the CotF and the faction involved with them is the one that mosts interest me.

We also have another instance of a tiny woman that looks like a girl but is much older, the waif in the House of Black and White. She was poisoned when she was young and stopped growing. She is not a CotF so we have been shown that there are other possibilities to stunted growth.

On the other hand the Ghost of High Heart does not seem like the most lucid and sane person, she could be a human with a gift she could not handle well. And that she thinks she is a CotF, but is not, is a possibility. The trees are sacred to more than the CotF in Westeros.

That said I think it is very possible that she it a CotF in glamor, and said as much in my previous post.

Edit: typo

I wasn't arguing that Old Nan is one just that there is reason to believe that the  Ghost of High Heart is. We agree that it's possible that she's glamored. I just don't think the fact that she doesn't have non-human like features when Arya sees her matters. If she wants to blend in she can't have those features. Bran didn't see Leaf while she was living among humans.

There are other characters who have red eyes but if you combine that with the Ghost of High Heart's ability to see the future then it's possible that she has the gift of greensight but she's not a greenseer.
EDIT:

Quote

The crannogmen say a person has the greensight if they dream prophetic dreams which always come true (moss-green eyes may come with it) (II: 320)

• A person with the greensight sometimes dreams as other people, but the green dreams are different (II: 320)
  
• A green dream takes the form of metaphor; for instance, a winged creature bound with grey stone chains to the earth might represent a person who has that creature as an emblem who is chained by preconceptions from achieving his full potential (II: 320)

http://www.westeros....The_Greensight/

We have only seen descendants of First Men/COTF or actual COTF being able to do this. She has to be one of the two. I think COTF is more likely than her being one of the First Men or crannogmen.


& High Heart was specifically sacred to the COTF.

Quote

• High Heart is a huge hill a day's ride from Sallydance in the Riverlands. About its top stand the stumps of thirty-one once-mighty weirwoods, so wide around that a child could use one for a bed (III: 249)
  
• High Heart was sacred to the children of the forest, and their magic is said to linger, protecting anyone who sleeps there from harm (III: 249)
  
• The smallfolk shun High Heart, saying it was haunted by ghosts of the children who had died there when the Andal king Erreg the Kingslayer had cut down the grove (III: 249)

http://www.westeros...._of_the_Forest/

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 19 April 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Harland Flint]

- At the Quiet Isle, the septon mentions that a black iron dragon statue washed ashore, red with dust. An allusion to the possibility that Aegon from ADwD is a Blackfyre pretender masquerading as a Targaeryan, of which the house colours of black and red, respectively.

- One of the many visions Dany sees in the House of the Undying, a man with a wolfs head sits amidst a dinner of corpses; prophesising the Red Wedding. I assumed that this was a vision of the past (like the R+L=J scene seems to be), or perhaps a vision of the ultimate fate of Robb Stark in Winds of Winter/Dream of Spring (victorious King in the North, but all his allies murdered, and possessing no real power). I didn't connect the dots after reading the Red Wedding that Dany's vision foresaw it.

[Eyron I]

Quote

Dappled skin of the CotF could simply look like age spots if all you are expecting is an old woman.  There was also a CotF in Arya's PoV who came to hear Tom O'Seven sing a song.  IIRC it was about "her Jeyne" which was from about 100 years ago in Westeros history.  There is just as much foreshadowing about CotF walking among men as there was about Frey pies, yet everyone believes in Frey pies.

^This is the post that I was answering, the previous one said that Old Nan is a Child of the Forest, and the Wood's Witch is what is used as evidence for this statement here.

ARYa_Nym, on 19 April 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

I wasn't arguing that Old Nan is one just that there is reason to believe that the  Ghost of High Heart is. We agree that it's possible that she's glamored. I just don't think the fact that she doesn't have non-human like features when Arya sees her matters. If she wants to blend in she can't have those features. Bran didn't see Leaf while she was living among humans.

We agree here, and I don't understand why you responded to my post with arguments about the Ghost of High Heart is a CotF, when I said as much myself. There are no evidence that makes me think that there is no doubt, and it seems to me you also think it is a very probably theory, not a certain fact, so this debate seems a little strange to me. The person I answered said "there was also a CotF in Arya's POV" and I don't think that it is certain that she was a CotF. That she looks old and spotted has nothing to do with her being a CotF (since she in that case is glamored) and therefore I don't think that is evidence for Old Nan being a CotF as that post implied.

When I wrote this:

Quote

I also said she could be a CotF glamored up in my post... Still, from the way she looks, she does not look much like a CotF which was the matter I was responding to. To say that she looks like a CotF and that makes it possible that Old Nan is a CotF is not a good argument to me.

I didn't mean that your opinion was that Old Nan was a CotF. I was trying to say that the person I was responding to said that Old Nan was a CotF and the base of that was that the Ghost of High Heart is a CotF.

Quote

There are other characters who have red eyes but if you combine that with the Ghost of High Heart's ability to see the future then it's possible that she has the gift of greensight but she's not a greenseer.
...

We have only seen descendants of First Men/COTF or actual COTF being able to do this. She has to be one of the two. I think COTF is more likely than her being one of the First Men or crannogmen.

I think it is as likely that she is a CotF descendant as it is likely that she is a CotF. All the CotF are skinchangers, and I don't think we saw anything that indicated that she was one. The people we have seen being skinchangers are Bloodraven and the Starks, and they are not even CotF, they are just (probably) descending from them.

Bran, Jojen and Targaryens and a few more (e.g. Maggi the frog) can also see the future, so it is still not conclusive.

Bloodraven and his family is from Ravenhall which is very close to High Heart, I believe he is also descending from the CotF and he is an albino with red eyes too. There are many similarities between him and the Ghost of High Heart. To me it's as likely that the Ghost of High Heart is a human with these abilities as the probability that she is a glamored CotF. Maybe the traits are stronger in her than in most CotF descendants and that is why she is smaller?

Quote

& High Heart was specifically sacred to the COTF.

http://www.westeros...._of_the_Forest/

When the First Men took to the Old gods, wouldn't they also hold this place as sacred? We don't know if the text you quote refers to the time before the First Men converted to the Old gods or after. I would assume that the First Men had the same sacred places as the Children after they converted.

[ARYa_Nym]

Eaeron I, on 19 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

^This is the post that I was answering, the previous one said that Old Nan is a Child of the Forest, and the Wood's Witch is what is used as evidence for this statement here.

We agree here, and I don't understand why you responded to my post with arguments about the Ghost of High Heart is a CotF, when I said as much myself. There are no evidence that makes me think that there is no doubt, and it seems to me you also think it is a very probably theory, not a certain fact, so this debate seems a little strange to me. The person I answered said "there was also a CotF in Arya's POV" and I don't think that it is certain that she was a CotF. That she looks old and spotted has nothing to do with her being a CotF (since she in that case is glamored) and therefore I don't think that is evidence for Old Nan being a CotF as that post implied.

When I wrote this:
I didn't mean that your opinion was that Old Nan was a CotF. I was trying to say that the person I was responding to said that Old Nan was a CotF and the base of that was that the Ghost of High Heart is a CotF.

I was more responding to the fact that you said that the Ghost of High Heart didn't look like a COTF because that is often used as evidence for her not being one. I provided more textual reasons as to why it is believed that she is one and why the fact that she doesn't look like one doesn't add to the argument that she is/isn't a COTF.

We essentially agree that it is likely but isn't a fact at this stage.

Eaeron I, on 19 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

I think it is as likely that she is a CotF descendant as it is likely that she is a CotF. All the CotF are skinchangers, and I don't think we saw anything that indicated that she was one. The people we have seen being skinchangers are Bloodraven and the Starks, and they are not even CotF, they are just (probably) descending from them.

Bran, Jojen and Targaryens and a few more (e.g. Maggi the frog) can also see the future, so it is still not conclusive.

Bloodraven and his family is from Ravenhall which is very close to High Heart, I believe he is also descending from the CotF and he is an albino with red eyes too. There are many similarities between him and the Ghost of High Heart. To me it's as likely that the Ghost of High Heart is a human with these abilities as the probability that she is a glamored CotF. Maybe the traits are stronger in her than in most CotF descendants and that is why she is smaller?

Not all of the COTF have it though.

Quote

Some of the children of the forest reputedly had the greensight and that these wise men were the greenseers (II: 323)

http://www.westeros...._of_the_Forest/

Quote

Having the greensight is not enough to be a greenseer. The greenseers were wargs as well, and could see through the eyes of the weirwoods and see the truth that lies beneath the world (III: 107)

http://www.westeros....The_Greensight/

I think it's extremely unlikely that she's a crannogman because they seem to rarely mix and if they do it's with the North.

There are only two First Men houses in that area.

The Ghost of High Heart would have to be part Blackwood like Bloodraven was which should have been noted. Her being a northern woman or  wildling who somehow ended up there is unlikely.

Eaeron I, on 19 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

When the First Men took to the Old gods, wouldn't they also hold this place as sacred? We don't know if the text you quote refers to the time before the First Men converted to the Old gods or after. I would assume that the First Men had the same sacred places as the Children after they converted.

It seems that only the Blackwoods still follow the Old Gods in this area and it didn't say that High Heart was sacred to them. The Brackens do not follow the Old Gods. High Heart is located in a place where most First Men don't live.

This place seemed to be an area where the COTF used to live and were slaughtered during a conflict with the Andals.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 19 April 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Eyron I]

ARYa_Nym, on 19 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I was more responding to the fact that you said that the Ghost of High Heart didn't look like a COTF because that is often used as evidence for her not being one. I provided more textual reasons as to why it is believed that she is one and why the fact that she doesn't look like one doesn't add to the argument that she is/isn't a COTF.

We essentially agree that it is likely but isn't a fact at this stage.

I believe we are on the same page now

Quote

Not all of the COTF have it though.

http://www.westeros...._of_the_Forest/

http://www.westeros....The_Greensight/

Do you mean skinchanging abilities?
I don't have the books with me now, but I'm fairly sure that it is mentioned in Bran's ADwD chapters that all Children are skinchangers. Not all of them has greensight and not all of them are greenseers, but IIRC Bloodraven/Jojen (?) says they are all skinchangers.

Quote

I think it's extremely unlikely that she's a crannogman because they seem to rarely mix and if they do it's with the North.

There are only two First Men houses in that area.

The Ghost of High Heart would have to be part Blackwood like Bloodraven was which should have been noted. Her being a northern woman or  wildling who somehow ended up there is unlikely.

If she didn't move there from someplace else, do you mean that there still is a group of Children living there? That is possible I guess, if the rest of them were hiding from the humans, or recently went extinct apart from her. I had the feeling she was more of a lone wolf... She connected with humans and lived among them, so I doubt there were more Children there. If she is a CotF, I think she came from beyond the Wall like Leaf did when she walked among the humans.
Either way I think she probably came to High Heart from someplace else (except if she is a Blackwood in which case she just moved a little way).

Quote

It seems that only the Blackwoods still follow the Old Gods in this area and it didn't say that High Heart was sacred to them. The Brackens do not follow the Old Gods. High Heart is located in a place where most First Men don't live.

The First men descendants probably don't practice the same rituals as they once did, and we have a few hints that things were done differently in the past from Davos POV. It seems the only ones that remember what the Isle of faces are good for is the Crannogmen, for example. The rest of the northmen and First men descendants don't seem to care or remember or even believe there still are Green men.

Quote

This place seemed to be an area where the COTF used to live and were slaughtered during a conflict with the Andals.

Yes, I think so too, it was probably one of their inhabited hills. But I don't think it's likely that she is a survivor from that long ago (would it be some 4000 years ago?), rather that she moved there for spiritual reasons or to be closer to the trees or some such. If so, I don't think that means that she definitely is a CotF, but that she is very devoted to the Old gods no matter if she is CotF or not.

[Eyron I]

Edit: dp

Edited by Eaeron I, 19 April 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Riffraff]

Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne

[LordofWinter]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 17 April 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Oh, and the Alchemist is definitely Jaqen. If you look up the description of the man JH changed into when he left Harrenhal, it's the same one as the alchemist.

i'm pretty sure this is Jaqen's actual face, as he and the FM tend towards wearing the skinned faces of other people. so i think his is the face with the scar on the right cheek.

[ARYa_Nym]

Eaeron I, on 19 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

I believe we are on the same page now

Great!

Eaeron I, on 19 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Do you mean skinchanging abilities?
I don't have the books with me now, but I'm fairly sure that it is mentioned in Bran's ADwD chapters that all Children are skinchangers. Not all of them has greensight and not all of them are greenseers, but IIRC Bloodraven/Jojen (?) says they are all skinchangers.

I mean that she has the greensight but she may not be a greenseer like Bran and Bloodraven. Her red eyes make it likely that she is though so she would have the skills of a skinchanger.

She would want to hide this fact  since she lives amongst the Andals.

Eaeron I, on 19 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

If she didn't move there from someplace else, do you mean that there still is a group of Children living there? That is possible I guess, if the rest of them were hiding from the humans, or recently went extinct apart from her. I had the feeling she was more of a lone wolf... She connected with humans and lived among them, so I doubt there were more Children there. If she is a CotF, I think she came from beyond the Wall like Leaf did when she walked among the humans.
Either way I think she probably came to High Heart from someplace else (except if she is a Blackwood in which case she just moved a little way).
The First men descendants probably don't practice the same rituals as they once did, and we have a few hints that things were done differently in the past from Davos POV. It seems the only ones that remember what the Isle of faces are good for is the Crannogmen, for example. The rest of the northmen and First men descendants don't seem to care or remember or even believe there still are Green men.

Yes, I think so too, it was probably one of their inhabited hills. But I don't think it's likely that she is a survivor from that long ago (would it be some 4000 years ago?), rather that she moved there for spiritual reasons or to be closer to the trees or some such. If so, I don't think that means that she definitely is a CotF, but that she is very devoted to the Old gods no matter if she is CotF or not.

I agree that she probably traveled there but I think it's unlikely that she's one of the First Men who traveled there but not impossible.

I see no explanation for a  crannongman being there so I see that option as the least likely.

I agree that it's possible that she traveled like Leaf did. I think it makes sense for her to gravitate to an area that was once sacred to her people but I don't think that there are a group of COTF living there.

We basically have the same line of reasoning I just see the COTF option as the most likely explanation.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The red god’s magic doesn’t work at High Heart. That suggests that the fire god and those who sing the song of the earth are not on the same side.

[Harle The Handsome]

caffeinated, on 18 April 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

She could have been 50 and looked really old, in medieval times, right?

Using my family as a guidepost, once you look old enough to be considered Old, you won't live another 30+ years like Old Nan did.  GRRM adding that bit in Bran's tree vison wasn't just something to fill up half a page.  This was foreshadowing.

[rmholt]

Eaeron I, on 17 April 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I had a vague suspection when reading but ahem, Frey pie?

Oh I think so.  With the horses. Manderly is crafty.

Marie

[rmholt]

Jeck, on 18 April 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

I also missed the hints that Aegon is Illyrio's son and possibly a Blackfyre to boot.

I am still hanging on to my theory that Varys staged the bread riot to take off Tyget Lannister and turn him into false Aegon.  

Marie

[rmholt]

eyeheartsansa, on 17 April 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Jeyne tells Cat that mother was giving her some kind of concoction to take every day once she married Robb.  Jeyne says/thinks it's for fertility, but is it?

Jeyne's mother was in on the conspiracy with Tywin to stage the destruction of Robb.  The Westerlings are Lannister bannermen and she gave Jeyne the posset to prevent conception.  This is explained later when all the post war debts are sorted out.

Marie

[rmholt]

Patchface12, on 17 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Also, they mentioned strange ships in the Stepstones in Ser Kevan's epilogue. Could this be Aurane Waters?

I thought these were Connington's men.  They got a bit scattered.

[KCenturion]

Illyrio's comment that Maelys the Monstrous was the final Blackfyre...from the male line. Which leaves open the possibility that a female line could still exist!

[TheSpottedCat]

Jaqen at the Citadel
Euron molesting Aeron
Bran, Jojen, Meera cannibalism

[Night Gathers]

Something happened to Theon's private(s)

[The Last Martell]

If I hadn't watched the show first, I would never have picked up on Loras/Renly until the third book or so when Jaime talks about "shoving his sword into a place not even Lord Renly found," or whatever the exact quote is.

Other things:
Euron probably killed Balon, possibly with a FM
Jaqen at the Citadel
Aegon is possibly a Blackfyre pretender/Illyrio's son